He's actually got about a 50% SF the way he's doing it. Which will be rancid in no time.
Lye calculation help needed.
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He's actually got about a 50% SF the way he's doing it. Which will be rancid in no time.
This has been an entertaining AND informative read, to be sure, and more than a little reminiscent of another Matt (coincidence?). But, what I don't get is....if he's happy with his recipe, which many people think shouldn't work that well really, then can't he use simple multiplication to get his bigger batch? Forget SoapCalc, forget any calc....take your original quantities, multiply them all by the same number, and presto, a bigger batch! Unless you multiply by a fraction, 'cause then it'll get smaller. But shouldn't resizing be that easy, really?
Dawni
Well-Known Member
Ack! Shows how much I know lol but I was referring more to what calculations I got.
Matt, you've been given great advice from the experts.. And us non-experts have also been trying. There's just two options really.... Either you take the advice or you don't. You already know the consequences of either choice so I'm leaving this at this, in case I say something wrong and confuse other newbies that will come across this thread..
I will say this: The lye calcs don't lie... Not about the lye lol
jcandleattic
Well-Known Member
It should be. But have you ever tried to double a baking recipe, just by doubling the ingredients? In theory, yeah, totally should work. In reality, not so much. Things get really wonky.
I believe the same happens with a soap recipe. I wouldn't trust resizing a batch just by adding numbers without running it through a calc.
Auxotroph
Well-Known Member
I did take your advice and made a batch exactly how the lye calculator calculated it. I demolded after 24 hours, and the bars were covered in soda ash and pretty mush impossible to cut. I have spent hundreds of hours researching how to calculate bugger batches, it is not as easy as just doubling your lye amount.
You say my soap is 50% super fat? I have never had an orange spot and I have never had a soap go rancid, and I have soap that is more than 5 years old.. It has never had soda ash, never been impossible to cut the next day.
I have made another batch last night, stired it about twice and it got to medium trace, seems lye heavy, I bet it is solid as a rock this morning. I used my palm shortening for it to use it up, it is palm oil and palm lecithin.
My normal shortening is part coconut oil, part soy lecithin.
It was better, but still had soda ash and it cracked when I cut it.
My hands are so dry now after I cut it.
I think I am just going to calculate the lye on the calculator and then minus 100 grams of lye and it should be about right.
You say my soap is 50% super fat? I have never had an orange spot and I have never had a soap go rancid, and I have soap that is more than 5 years old.. It has never had soda ash, never been impossible to cut the next day.
I have made another batch last night, stired it about twice and it got to medium trace, seems lye heavy, I bet it is solid as a rock this morning. I used my palm shortening for it to use it up, it is palm oil and palm lecithin.
My normal shortening is part coconut oil, part soy lecithin.
It was better, but still had soda ash and it cracked when I cut it.
My hands are so dry now after I cut it.
I think I am just going to calculate the lye on the calculator and then minus 100 grams of lye and it should be about right.
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Here's a gift:
Lard at 43 % SAP 0.141
Olive oil at 40% SAP 0.134
Coconut oil at 12% SAP 0.181
Castor oil at 5 % SAP 0.128
I made a batch of 793.8 grams ( 28 ounces).
The mass of each ingredient is:
Lard 341.3 grams oil x 0.141 is 48.1 grams of Sodium hydroxide at 0% lye discount.
Olive 317.5 grams oil x 0.134 is 42.5 " ".
Coconut 95.3 grams oil x 0.181 is 17.2 " ".
Castor 39.7 grams oil x 0.128 is 5.1 grams of Sodium hydroxide at 0% lye discount.
Add up the Sodium hydroxide and apply a lye discount (3% is what I typically use) and this recipe needs 109.8 grams of Sodium Hydroxide to make a mild low cleansing number soap. This soap is safe to use and many people I know do in fact use it.
****ALL SOAP REQUIRES A CURE TIME****.
You may be able to use what you have been making straight out of the mold but that's because, well, NO LYE, NO SOAP!!!!.
I don't need to hear that you have found a magic way of making something you call soap using half of the base agent. The chemistry just isn't there.
If you really do what you are saying you will do please do NOT sell or distribute it as "soap" . It isn't.
IMHO you are NOT ready to sell or make products for anyone's use. Including your own.
Lard at 43 % SAP 0.141
Olive oil at 40% SAP 0.134
Coconut oil at 12% SAP 0.181
Castor oil at 5 % SAP 0.128
I made a batch of 793.8 grams ( 28 ounces).
The mass of each ingredient is:
Lard 341.3 grams oil x 0.141 is 48.1 grams of Sodium hydroxide at 0% lye discount.
Olive 317.5 grams oil x 0.134 is 42.5 " ".
Coconut 95.3 grams oil x 0.181 is 17.2 " ".
Castor 39.7 grams oil x 0.128 is 5.1 grams of Sodium hydroxide at 0% lye discount.
Add up the Sodium hydroxide and apply a lye discount (3% is what I typically use) and this recipe needs 109.8 grams of Sodium Hydroxide to make a mild low cleansing number soap. This soap is safe to use and many people I know do in fact use it.
****ALL SOAP REQUIRES A CURE TIME****.
You may be able to use what you have been making straight out of the mold but that's because, well, NO LYE, NO SOAP!!!!.
I don't need to hear that you have found a magic way of making something you call soap using half of the base agent. The chemistry just isn't there.
If you really do what you are saying you will do please do NOT sell or distribute it as "soap" . It isn't.
IMHO you are NOT ready to sell or make products for anyone's use. Including your own.
Oooohhh smart! And also spooky....
Auxotroph
Well-Known Member
I have done those calculations, and they give me similar results for lye as the calculators.
I have done many papers in chemistry, and I know how it works, but for my soap the chemistry that you people are using doesn't work for my soap.
What is the SAP chart you use? they all have different values.
Do you understand that I have now tried two batches using two different lye calculations in the last week and both times it has created a bad batch. Soap shouldn't be rock solid after only 12 hours in the mold and it shouldn't trace so fast that you don't even need a stick blender.
I can do swirls and all kinds of things with less lye, but with the amounts you guys are suggesting, there is no way I would have time to because it begins setting so fast.
I have watched hundreds of videos and in none of them does it trace so fast.
and if what I have been making isn't soap, then why does it go rock soild after 4 weeks cure?
This thread does make me want to try a small batch of this recipe, but I don't know where I'd get that shortening. Maybe it's the magic sauce? Coconut oil and soy lecithin? I'm assuming there's something about the hydrogenation process that makes it behave differently from regular old CO.
But OP's reported experience is interesting enough I'd like to see if it's replicable.
But OP's reported experience is interesting enough I'd like to see if it's replicable.
Auxotroph
Well-Known Member
Maybe that is the problem. It seems like the calculators are all American based and using SAP values for American oils. Every ingredient I use is made in New Zealand.
The olives are probably different and the coconut is probably different. The quality might be a bit more or less.
Who knows, but I am not risking another batch using lye calculators, it gets you nowhere.
If your soap isn't working, it is best to use your own problem solving skills to fix it.
Me, I am going to find a value between my old values and the lye calculator values and slowly work my batch up from 4.5 kg to 5 kg and there I can get a result that will be easier to work with to upscale production.
The olives are probably different and the coconut is probably different. The quality might be a bit more or less.
Who knows, but I am not risking another batch using lye calculators, it gets you nowhere.
If your soap isn't working, it is best to use your own problem solving skills to fix it.
Me, I am going to find a value between my old values and the lye calculator values and slowly work my batch up from 4.5 kg to 5 kg and there I can get a result that will be easier to work with to upscale production.
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Auxotroph
Well-Known Member
Mine isn't called copra, and it is made in new Zealand. I buy in bulk. Find a shop that fries food and they should have it.
Yup. That right there is the problem. The genius has finally got the world figured out.
We really are out to get you. You're not just a paranoid freak.
Auxotroph
Well-Known Member
Yea well I took all your advice and came up with two bad batches. If you think hard crumbly soda ashed soap is real soap, then you can keep it.
What do you want me to do? Just keep making horrible batch after horrible batch until i don't want to make soap any more?
I prefer soap that feels nice on your skin and moisturizes the skin instead of drying it out, even if you don't think it is real soap.
Dawni
Well-Known Member
Your problem is you are using Crisco for calculations in what you've printed and should be using Coconut. High CO soaps will move really fast and will also need to be cut in 2-3 hours.
I'm really glad you think you've got chemistry down but you don't have a clue what you're doing in soapmaking with this recipe. I make 80% CO soaps and use lye calculators and make perfectly perfect soap. Using less lye isn't the answer. There are many here from where you live and have no issues making soap. I'm done here because you seem to have a listening problem or maybe reading.
Sally Buffam
New Member
Hi,
You are using a w/v to calculate your NaOH conc. - where the weight of the solute is not additive to the weight of the solvent. But here, on the soap calc they (we) use a w/w calulation where the weight of both the solute and the solvent is additive. Thus the info the soap cal gave you is a correct 40% NaOH (aq) solution. I too have come to learn this where I initially thought of using a w/v calulation. I am learning a great deal of info from theis forum.
Good luck
I don't even know where to start.
1) You're calculating your Lye Concentration incorrectly. Your "lye solution" is the total weight of your lye and water (384 + 940) which is 1324g. You then divide the lye by the total weight (384 / 1324) to get your lye concentration which is 29%.
2) Why is SoapCalc recommending a larger amount of Oil and Water than what you are using? Because it wasn't taking into consideration that you have 50% Super Fat, which is an outrageous and unhealthy amount of oil to leave on your skin. As 'microbiologist' you should know that.
3) Hydrogenated Coconut Oil is STILL oil, it just has hydrogen added to give it a higher melting point, so what you have is a soap that is 70% Coconut and yes it is hard, and yes it laters and with the Olive Oil Pomace in it it will trace even faster. And it's why you need such a high Super Fact because that much Coconut will STRIP all the natural oils from your skin.
4) Yes I have read the Bible, which is why I think you are confused. The Bible speaks of anointing oneself with oil (usually on the head) , but nothing about about covering yourself in it. I could be wrong as I am not a Biblical expert, perhaps you could provide chapter and verse. Now that is not to say that olive oil might not have been used skincare products of the time, but they would have more likely used other oils like Balm, Myrrh, Spikenard and Frankincense. Olive Oil was too valuable for cooking and lighting to be used as moisturizer.
5) Soap cleans...period. Even that cheap crap from the Dollar Store will get you clean, though you might have to use twice as much. Soap is also a disinfectant which is why everyone recommends washing your hands...it kills germs. All this 'antibacterial' crap is actually bad for you because it doesn't differentiate between 'good' bacteria and 'bad' bacteria. Destroying all the 'good' bacteria (aka germaphobia) weakens our immune system. In fact, I have noticed since I got rid of all the 'antibacterial' personal care products in our house, that we aren't getting as sick like we used to.
6) As for the differences in the two soaps, can you post a screenshot of your recipe from SoapCalc because it would be helpful to see what ingredients you used to calculate your Lye Solution AND what ingredients you actually used. But off-hand, soda ash usually occurs when you leave your soap uncovered. And if your regular recipe was also uncovered, the high SuperFat is probably reason why it doesn't have soda ash. Unless the ingredients you actually used had a lower SAP (saponification) value that the ingredients you put in SoapCalc, it wouldn't be lye 'heavy'. As for gelling, are you sure your soap is gelling? Or are you confusing saponification with gelling?
7) As for " I only ever thought about selling it because people were hounding me because the soaps down at the market are too harsh." Did you ever stop to consider that the soap is bad to begin with? For every quality soapmaker who cares about their product and their customers, there are 10 more who are only looking to make a buck...sound familiar or should I repost what you said on Post #7?
My sister, who has ultra sensitive skin...uses my soap:
10% Cocoa Butter
20% Coconut Oil 76 deg
20% Palm Oil (RSPO Certified)
10% Shea Butter
5% Castor Oil
35% Olive Oil
30% Lye Concentration
5% Super Fat
And appropriate amounts of Sodium Lactate and Kaolin Clay.
My costs for 1 lb/16 oz/800 g and NOT buying in bulk is $4.70 USD or $1.18 USD for a bar that is 1" thick, 3 3/8" wide and 2 5/8' tall. My 2 lb mold makes a slightly smaller bar and it works out to $0.94 USD per bar.
All my ingredients come from good suppliers. Sure I can get cheaper ingredients, but I'm not that greedy and I want my business to grow and it won't if I sell crappy soap.
1) You're calculating your Lye Concentration incorrectly. Your "lye solution" is the total weight of your lye and water (384 + 940) which is 1324g. You then divide the lye by the total weight (384 / 1324) to get your lye concentration which is 29%.
2) Why is SoapCalc recommending a larger amount of Oil and Water than what you are using? Because it wasn't taking into consideration that you have 50% Super Fat, which is an outrageous and unhealthy amount of oil to leave on your skin. As 'microbiologist' you should know that.
3) Hydrogenated Coconut Oil is STILL oil, it just has hydrogen added to give it a higher melting point, so what you have is a soap that is 70% Coconut and yes it is hard, and yes it laters and with the Olive Oil Pomace in it it will trace even faster. And it's why you need such a high Super Fact because that much Coconut will STRIP all the natural oils from your skin.
4) Yes I have read the Bible, which is why I think you are confused. The Bible speaks of anointing oneself with oil (usually on the head) , but nothing about about covering yourself in it. I could be wrong as I am not a Biblical expert, perhaps you could provide chapter and verse. Now that is not to say that olive oil might not have been used skincare products of the time, but they would have more likely used other oils like Balm, Myrrh, Spikenard and Frankincense. Olive Oil was too valuable for cooking and lighting to be used as moisturizer.
5) Soap cleans...period. Even that cheap crap from the Dollar Store will get you clean, though you might have to use twice as much. Soap is also a disinfectant which is why everyone recommends washing your hands...it kills germs. All this 'antibacterial' crap is actually bad for you because it doesn't differentiate between 'good' bacteria and 'bad' bacteria. Destroying all the 'good' bacteria (aka germaphobia) weakens our immune system. In fact, I have noticed since I got rid of all the 'antibacterial' personal care products in our house, that we aren't getting as sick like we used to.
6) As for the differences in the two soaps, can you post a screenshot of your recipe from SoapCalc because it would be helpful to see what ingredients you used to calculate your Lye Solution AND what ingredients you actually used. But off-hand, soda ash usually occurs when you leave your soap uncovered. And if your regular recipe was also uncovered, the high SuperFat is probably reason why it doesn't have soda ash. Unless the ingredients you actually used had a lower SAP (saponification) value that the ingredients you put in SoapCalc, it wouldn't be lye 'heavy'. As for gelling, are you sure your soap is gelling? Or are you confusing saponification with gelling?
7) As for " I only ever thought about selling it because people were hounding me because the soaps down at the market are too harsh." Did you ever stop to consider that the soap is bad to begin with? For every quality soapmaker who cares about their product and their customers, there are 10 more who are only looking to make a buck...sound familiar or should I repost what you said on Post #7?
My sister, who has ultra sensitive skin...uses my soap:
10% Cocoa Butter
20% Coconut Oil 76 deg
20% Palm Oil (RSPO Certified)
10% Shea Butter
5% Castor Oil
35% Olive Oil
30% Lye Concentration
5% Super Fat
And appropriate amounts of Sodium Lactate and Kaolin Clay.
My costs for 1 lb/16 oz/800 g and NOT buying in bulk is $4.70 USD or $1.18 USD for a bar that is 1" thick, 3 3/8" wide and 2 5/8' tall. My 2 lb mold makes a slightly smaller bar and it works out to $0.94 USD per bar.
All my ingredients come from good suppliers. Sure I can get cheaper ingredients, but I'm not that greedy and I want my business to grow and it won't if I sell crappy soap.
Hi Auxotroph - are you using Kremelta?
How about trying soy wax as a hardening/palm replacement? It's cheap and I have great success with it. I get it from Candle Creations and it's called GW415.
Suggest coconut oil at 20% maximum, Olive oil about 40% for a milder soap, 25% Soy wax, 5% castor, 10% Rice Bran ( cheap!)? Something along those lines? I don't use that recipe as I prefer to use other oils such as avocado and shea butter but they would add expense to your recipe.
As suggested by others, it looks like your former recipe was just really low on lye, meaning the soap you made had loads of unsaponified oils in it - which probably took a while to cure? Even though it may have been a hard bar with all that CO in it, it would have dissolved very quickly in the shower have nothing much in it to provide longevity.
Good luck.
How about trying soy wax as a hardening/palm replacement? It's cheap and I have great success with it. I get it from Candle Creations and it's called GW415.
Suggest coconut oil at 20% maximum, Olive oil about 40% for a milder soap, 25% Soy wax, 5% castor, 10% Rice Bran ( cheap!)? Something along those lines? I don't use that recipe as I prefer to use other oils such as avocado and shea butter but they would add expense to your recipe.
As suggested by others, it looks like your former recipe was just really low on lye, meaning the soap you made had loads of unsaponified oils in it - which probably took a while to cure? Even though it may have been a hard bar with all that CO in it, it would have dissolved very quickly in the shower have nothing much in it to provide longevity.
Good luck.
Do us a favor and tell us something we don't already know. This is basic stuff.
Please allow me to speak plainly. You are obsessed with using coconut oil because of its antimicrobial properties. It's time to let go of that approach. Quite frankly, it doesn't matter... especially if you want to develop a soap for sensitive skin... olive oil trumps coconut oil in that category. The ideal is to combine the two into a formula that fits the objective... i.e., high olive with low coconut... there you have the best of both ingredients. Add a little castor oil for lather and you're good to go.
85% olive oil
10% coconut oil
5% castor oil
Maybe this will help... imagine a surgeon scrubbing up before the operation. Does he/she insist on coconut oil soap? Is this the standard in the operating room? No, it's not. Any soap can do the job. My advice is that you go back to the beginning and read this thread again to gain an understanding of what we are trying to tell you to help you obtain your objective.
All of the hospitals I have worked in in the US use this, which is NOT soap:
https://www.amazon.com/Hibiclens-Su...acterial+hospital+soap&qid=1572788685&sr=8-17
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