Long lasting bar

[KiwiMoose]

My vegan, no-palm soap lasts longer than my vegan soap with palm, and both hold up fairly well with frequent use. I use Shea and Cocoa butter in both, so it might be less economical, but I don't think it's fair to say that a disappearing bar is the price you pay for going palm-free. It makes it sound like conscientiously crafted artisan bars are at best a 1-2-use item, and I'm not convinced that needs to be the case.

However, containers/packages of small single-use bars do seem popular at the moment, so maybe you could see what your customers think of the idea?

Exactly! My customers often exclaim that my bars last for ages. And as @RobinRogers has stated a good rule of thumb is the 50/50 hard/soft oils. Curretbly @cascarral only has CO (which is highly soluble) and a dash of cocoa butter, so by increasing the cocoa/shea this should do the trick.

 

[cascarral]

My vegan, no-palm soap lasts longer than my vegan soap with palm, and both hold up fairly well with frequent use. I use Shea and Cocoa butter in both, so it might be less economical, but I don't think it's fair to say that a disappearing bar is the price you pay for going palm-free. It makes it sound like conscientiously crafted artisan bars are at best a 1-2-use item, and I'm not convinced that needs to be the case.

However, containers/packages of small single-use bars do seem popular at the moment, so maybe you could see what your customers think of the idea?

You are right! I do use shea and cocoa as well. Have never made a soap with palm so wouldn't know the difference. I'm glad to hear is not always the case because so many soap blogs say you can't make a hard bar without palm or animal fat.

Exactly! My customers often exclaim that my bars last for ages. And as @RobinRogers has stated a good rule of thumb is the 50/50 hard/soft oils. Curretbly @cascarral only has CO (which is highly soluble) and a dash of cocoa butter, so by increasing the cocoa/shea this should do the trick.

I did tests this weekend and will posts results in 6 weeks! I tweaked my recipe around my price limit and made two test batches:

A: OO 40%, CO 25%, Canola 15%, Cocoa 10%, Shea 10% - this one hardened pretty fast, when I tried to cut after 20 hours the edges cracked.

B: OO 60%, CO 25%, Cocoa 15% - I cut this one after 3 days (because I was away for the weekend) and it was very hard but cut smoothly.

 

[SeaSuds]

Looking forward to hearing your results. Recipe A is very close to my recent non soy wax recipe experiments

 

[cascarral]

Looking forward to hearing your results. Recipe A is very close to my recent non soy wax recipe experiments

Let me know how your's goes and what you find

 

[sarahmarah]

I'm curious to hear what isn't considered a long-lasting bar. It may also depend on how it's being used - is it one person or many people using the same bar every day? How is the soap stored in the shower? How is it being used in the shower - lather on hands, on a wash cloth, on a shower poofy?

If comparing to commercial soap, a handcrafted soap isn't going to be as long lasting. I had a customer who was going through a bar every two weeks. I discovered that she was not letting the soap drain and air dry properly, so the soap was getting soggy and squishy (and she was wiping off the squishy bits). I also discovered she was using the bar directly on her skin rather than using a wash cloth or poofy. I got her setup with a soap saver to help dry out the soap in the shower and a shower poofy, and her soaps last about 7 weeks... and I have a happy returning customer. I would find out some specifics from the customer before I start messing with my formula - especially if it is lasting a long time in your own shower. Maybe your customer also has unrealistic expectations that your soap should last 8 weeks in the shower. What size are your bars? Maybe the bar size is too small for a normal use. e.g. if you're selling a 56g soap and expecting it to last 4 weeks, you'll be disappointed. You'll need to increase the bar size.

That’s super interesting—I never had thought about the shower poof. Are those generally recommended to extend the life of a bar of soap? I use my soap directly on my skin and I’m wondering if a shower poof is a better way to test?

 

[AliOop]

@sarahmarah I use a soap saver made out of the same material as most poofs, and it does indeed make the soap last longer. I like the saver style because I can load it with all the scraps and bar ends, thus (theoretically) keeping my sink-side soap dishes less crowded with multiple tester bars.

 

[Adobehead]

Wow, sister-soapers in Mexico! Yay!
Chiming in from San Miguel de Allende, I shop at local Costcos (there are two within an hour's drive) and Avocado oil that I recently bought cost $199 pesos for one liter. To me, that translates to 29 cents an ounce in USD at today's exchange rate . That is more than double the cost of the organic Coconut and I don't soap with it. Maybe I should, I'm in the mood to mix things up anyway.

 

[Steve85569]

From the fatty acid profile "Lasting" is Palmetic + Stearic .
Using vinegar as water (and compensating for the acidity of the vinegar with you sodium hydroxide) will make your soap harder and less soluable. I did not whip out my google fu and look up the old threads but we had a set of long discussions on it a while ago. Maybe it was several years.

Using vinegar allows you to stay all vegetable with your oils and produce a longer lasting soap.
WARNING vinegar will harden your recipe sooner. It will cut sooner!!!

 

[cascarral]

Wow, sister-soapers in Mexico! Yay!
Chiming in from San Miguel de Allende, I shop at local Costcos (there are two within an hour's drive) and Avocado oil that I recently bought cost $199 pesos for one liter. To me, that translates to 29 cents an ounce in USD at today's exchange rate . That is more than double the cost of the organic Coconut and I don't soap with it. Maybe I should, I'm in the mood to mix things up anyway.

Hola!! Saludos desde CDMX. Yes, I've never soaped with AO either, might be time to try it out.

From the fatty acid profile "Lasting" is Palmetic + Stearic .
Using vinegar as water (and compensating for the acidity of the vinegar with you sodium hydroxide) will make your soap harder and less soluable. I did not whip out my google fu and look up the old threads but we had a set of long discussions on it a while ago. Maybe it was several years.

Using vinegar allows you to stay all vegetable with your oils and produce a longer lasting soap.
WARNING vinegar will harden your recipe sooner. It will cut sooner!!!

Thank you! Something new to consider, will go through the thread you mention

 

[Dawni]

This is the thread I keep rereading regarding vinegar as a hardener, in case you haven't found a thread.
https://www.soapmakingforum.com/threads/how-to-use-vinegar-to-harden-your-soap.59295/For vegan soaps I use any or all of the butters I have - cocoa, shea and mango - together with RBO, which has a good amount of stearic acid for a soft oil. I'm good if my longevity count hits 30 and above. Personal preference...

For non vegan, the love is lard lol.

I find canola a good lather booster, but too much of it makes soap sticky and slimy, even if cured for ages. Moderation is the key....

Interesting! Never heard of non superfatting, just for dishes. How did you decide to go that way? Do bars last longer without SF? Is there a difference in conditioning?

I have a couple of soaps with only 1% superfat as a safety net. My own rule of thumb is, the lower the coconut, the lower the superfat and I have soaps with just around 10% coconut oil and very high conditioning factor. The extra superfat might just make em slimy, and create more scum, and be harder to rinse imo

 

[cascarral]

This is the thread I keep rereading regarding vinegar as a hardener, in case you haven't found a thread.
https://www.soapmakingforum.com/threads/how-to-use-vinegar-to-harden-your-soap.59295/For vegan soaps I use any or all of the butters I have - cocoa, shea and mango - together with RBO, which has a good amount of stearic acid for a soft oil. I'm good if my longevity count hits 30 and above. Personal preference...

For non vegan, the love is lard lol.

I find canola a good lather booster, but too much of it makes soap sticky and slimy, even if cured for ages. Moderation is the key....


I have a couple of soaps with only 1% superfat as a safety net. My own rule of thumb is, the lower the coconut, the lower the superfat and I have soaps with just around 10% coconut oil and very high conditioning factor. The extra superfat might just make em slimy, and create more scum, and be harder to rinse imo

Everything you describes happens to my soaps slimy and sticky! Yep I'm guessing the canolaoil is to blame but also maybe the SF! Although my soaps are high in CO so I'm not sure if I should even try to decrease it. Based on your experience... for a 25% CO, how much SF would you advice for? I've been working with 5%

Now I'm panicking! My longevity numbers are 20-21, not even a point more in all the different recipes I have. Is this too low? tbh I never look at the numbers

 

[SeaSuds]

tbh I never look at the numbers

I found this really really useful: The Most Popular Fatty Acid Profiles in Soapmaking
If you start to look at the numbers, it takes a lot of the guesswork out!

 

[cascarral]

I found this really really useful: The Most Popular Fatty Acid Profiles in Soapmaking
If you start to look at the numbers, it takes a lot of the guesswork out!

Thank you!!

 

[RobinRogers]

Mexico City


Wow!! Thank you for all this, it really opens things up. I'll ask about use but even in my own shower bars just seam to disappear, I know it's the price to pay for a vegan palm free soap, too.

My bars are 100 gr, but they are tall and thin, maybe this is contributing to it?

I may have to think about selling plates for soaps to drain correctly. Thanks again forsharing your thoughts


My concern with soy is more around human health in soy plantations and less about my own jaja, have seen and read too much about cancer in Argentina due to agrochemicals in soy plantations.

I'll try and see how a bit of avocado works thank you!

I've been experimenting with my previous formula, the "new" one (10% more shea and les coconut) and another soap I bought from a farmer's market that has OO CO and cocoa butter, my conclusion is that even though my "new"formula lasts the longest, the farmer's market feels nicer because it's less slimmy, I'm pretty sure it's because of the canola so I'll try your advice in this regard. Today I'm making some tests, we'll see in 6 weeks what happens


Interesting! Never heard of non superfatting, just for dishes. How did you decide to go that way? Do bars last longer without SF? Is there a difference in conditioning?

I wasn’t taught about SF. I find my bars are harder and yes, I get a lot of good conditioning. I use a variety of soft oils in different recipes. I guess the answer to your question is that when I started formulating my recipes, I didn’t understand SF!

 

[cascarral]

I wasn’t taught about SF. I find my bars are harder and yes, I get a lot of good conditioning. I use a variety of soft oils in different recipes. I guess the answer to your question is that when I started formulating my recipes, I didn’t understand SF!

Jajaja! It worked well for you!

 

[Steve85569]

I had forgotten about soy wax to harden soap too.
It's one that I use fairly regular too.
I watch the cleansing number more than the conditioning number. I have old skin so I don't want a soap that cleans too much oil off my hide.

 

[cascarral]

I had forgotten about soy wax to harden soap too.
It's one that I use fairly regular too.
I watch the cleansing number more than the conditioning number. I have old skin so I don't want a soap that cleans too much oil off my hide.

which is your magic number for cleansing? My soaps are always pretty cleansing because of all the CO, also why they use up so fast.

 

[Steve85569]

I like to be around 8 for my cleansing number. A little lower is okay but much higher and I begin to dry out.
SF is 2 to 3 anymore. I started out higher but over time it has gotten to the level of my mentors here.

Reckon they knew what they were doing all along.

I am a lard user and I like coconut oil so I don't make much vegan soap BUT if a crafts person watches their fatty acid profile then what the source of the fatty acids was makes less difference than the combined profile ( IMHO ). Then again, I haven't eaten any soap in a lot of years.

 

[cascarral]

I like to be around 8 for my cleansing number. A little lower is okay but much higher and I begin to dry out.
SF is 2 to 3 anymore. I started out higher but over time it has gotten to the level of my mentors here.

Reckon they knew what they were doing all along.

I am a lard user and I like coconut oil so I don't make much vegan soap BUT if a crafts person watches their fatty acid profile then what the source of the fatty acids was makes less difference than the combined profile ( IMHO ). Then again, I haven't eaten any soap in a lot of years.

Thank you! This was extremely helpful!

 

[Dawni]

My SF doesn't go beyond 2-3 anymore either. Especially since I use infused oils to color my soap so there will be a grams added onto that. My cleansing varies between 6-12 depending on what else is in that recipe. I only look at that, and the longevity. Everything else is anything goes lol

I make both vegan and lard soaps. I'd make tallow soaps if I can source it. I too haven't eaten any soap in maybe a few decades. I do once in a whole brush my teeth with it, does that count? Lol

Sorry for taking so long to answer