Liquid soap with cloudy layer on top, clear on bottom

[Kyra]

Similar recipe also separated

A very interesting thread, ladies! Thank you all for your input.

Annie, I recently made a very similar recipe (I do not have it in front of me, to check the amounts, but it sounds very close to the one I just made) but I experienced separation after adding the citric acid. I just recently started using citric acid, borax never gives me any kind of issues, but I want to get this citric acid neutralization down. After sitting for almost a week now, the soap has a very cloudy (compact cloudy) layer on top and the bottom is crystal clear. I have some set aside in a plastic bottle (I use it as dish soap) and I mix it back up by shaking it, but after a few hours it separates again. I checked the PH and it is at 8.67.

I guess my question is: is separated soap safe to use? The Ph is good, it foams and cleans beautifully, it is not harsh on my skin, it seems fine, it's just separated.

 

[FGOriold]

Kyra - you took the pH too low with the citric acid (soap is an alklaline product and trying to force the pH down too far, you will cause it to "break" apart). When you create the soap it takes the oils and lye and turns it into soap + glyceirn + water. When you lower the pH too far, it reverts back but into fatty acids + potassium citrate + water = no longer "soap". You probably still have some saponified oils in there as it will not completely break down and will therefore still function - but it may continue to break down over time as you are starting to reverse the saponificaion. You can raise the pH back up to fix this by adding additional KOH dissolved in a bit of water. DeeAnna has a formula for doing so - maybe she will chime in.

 

[Susie]

You can raise the pH back up to fix this by adding additional KOH dissolved in a bit of water. DeeAnna has a formula for doing so - maybe she will chime in.

Yes, please, DeeAnna. I failed to save that to my soaping files on my computer or print it out when you posted it before. And, though I have searched, I have been unable to search it out again. TIA!

 

[DeeAnna]

Is this what y'all are talking about?

6 g NaOH will be neutralized by 10 g citric acid
8 g KOH will be neutralized by 10 g citric acid

How much citric acid did you use to (over) neutralize your soap? That will give you an upper limit on how much KOH you need to fix the problem. I'd mix that amount of KOH in water, add about half of that solution to your LS, stir, and see what happens.

The fatty acids you have created should react fairly quickly with KOH (or NaOH) as long as there's enough mixing going on so the KOH and the fatty acids can "find" each other. Obviously you don't want to mix so furiously that you whip up a lot of suds, but you do need to mix well.

Hope this helps!

 

[Susie]

It is actually the "mix X amount of KOH with X amount of water, and add X amount to the soap at the time until it comes back together" I am looking for, but I copied and pasted the above to refer to later, so thanks!

 

[DeeAnna]

Oh ... I'm afraid that wasn't my advice. Irish Lass perhaps? Not sure.

 

[Susie]

My bad.

 

[Kyra]

Faith, thank you so much for the input. I'll try to do that rather than dumping the gallon of soap I just made. Soybean oil is very expensive here and I would hate to waste such a good soap. It cleans really well, I just need to whip it back into formula. Thanks once again!

Kyra - you took the pH too low with the citric acid (soap is an alklaline product and trying to force the pH down too far, you will cause it to "break" apart). When you create the soap it takes the oils and lye and turns it into soap + glyceirn + water. When you lower the pH too far, it reverts back but into fatty acids + potassium citrate + water = no longer "soap". You probably still have some saponified oils in there as it will not completely break down and will therefore still function - but it may continue to break down over time as you are starting to reverse the saponificaion. You can raise the pH back up to fix this by adding additional KOH dissolved in a bit of water. DeeAnna has a formula for doing so - maybe she will chime in.

 

[Kyra]

DeeAnna, thank you so much for your "fix it" formula. I added the KOH solution to my LS and it magically went back into formula. My soap is not crystal clear, it is slightly cloudy, but you can read a paper underneath the testing glass. I am sooo happy I didn't give up on this batch and even more happy I could salvage it. PH is back up to 9.34. Should I higher it some more?

UPDATE: I did add some more KOH solution and got the PH up to 9.49.

Is this what y'all are talking about?

6 g NaOH will be neutralized by 10 g citric acid
8 g KOH will be neutralized by 10 g citric acid

How much citric acid did you use to (over) neutralize your soap? That will give you an upper limit on how much KOH you need to fix the problem. I'd mix that amount of KOH in water, add about half of that solution to your LS, stir, and see what happens.

The fatty acids you have created should react fairly quickly with KOH (or NaOH) as long as there's enough mixing going on so the KOH and the fatty acids can "find" each other. Obviously you don't want to mix so furiously that you whip up a lot of suds, but you do need to mix well.

Hope this helps!

 

[FGOriold]

Kyra - I would leave it for now and let it sequester for a bit, then reevaluate it.

 

[Kyra]

Faith,

I will do that. More than 5 hours later, it's still not clear, it is still a bit cloudy, but at least it is not separated any longer, no layer is forming on top, which gives me hope. I'll see what a few days of sequestering will do to it. I will recheck the PH after a few days.

 

[FGOriold]

Kyra - there could be other reasons that your soap is a bit cloudy too - oils used, superfat amount, etc.

 

[DeeAnna]

I think Faith has the right of it, to throw my inexperienced opinion into the ring. With soap, liquid or otherwise, there is a lot of stuff going on that just takes time. I can answer many of the general chemistry type of questions, but Faith and Susie are much more experienced at making LS than I am, and I respect their advice and knowledge.

 

[Kyra]

Thanks ladies! I was just reading some tutorials on Faith's site Yep, I agree, Faith and Susie's expertise in LS making is a mine gold for the rest of us! So grateful you ladies (all of you!) are sharing the wealth of your knowledge with us!

 

[annie7216]

fixing this batch

Thank you everyone, for all of the very helpful information. My soap is still separated with a cloudy layer on top. I thought it would eventually disperse, but it shows no signs of doing so. I'm going to try to fix this batch by adding in more KOH as suggested by many of you on this forum.

I'm a little confused though about how much to add. I originally mixed .5 oz of citric acid into 2 oz of water, then added 2 and a half tablespoons of that solution to my soap. However, I didn't use up the entire mixture. I threw some away because it made more than 2 and a half tablespoons. Do I still use .5 oz of KOH? Maybe I'll start with half that amount?

My other problem is that I separated the batch into 4 mason jars. Once I make the KOH solution I'm assuming it would be ok to equally distribute half of it among the jars?

Thanks again, for all the help. It takes a village!

 

[DeeAnna]

"...Do I still use .5 oz of KOH? Maybe I'll start with half that amount?..."

Noooooo...... You don't want to use an equal weight of KOH as citric. The relationship is this -- 10 parts citric are neutralized by 8 parts KOH (to get away from weight units).

You put 0.5 oz citric in 2 oz water. What weight of KOH is needed to neutralize 0.5 oz citric?

0.5 * 8 / 10 = 0.4 oz KOH

Now reverse what you did earlier, except use KOH, not citric: First, put 0.4 oz KOH in 2 oz water. Mix until dissolved. Measure 1 TBL of this solution into your soap. Stir. See what happens. If needed, add another 1 TBL, and see what happens. If still more is needed, add 1/2 TBL (1 1/2 tsp). You have now added enough KOH to the LS to neutralize all of the citric you added earlier.

"...Once I make the KOH solution I'm assuming it would be ok to equally distribute half of it among the jars? ..."

I suppose you could, but I personally wouldn't. Way more work and more likelihood of spills and errors. I'd put all of the LS into one container and deal with it all at once. Do you not have an appropriate container that holds a gallon or so?

 

[annie7216]

Thank you Deanna, for explaining the process to me. I did not quite understand it earlier, as you surmised.

It's not that I don't have an appropriate contain, I do. It's just that I separated it into 4 mason jars and added different essential oils to each. So I was hoping to save the individual scents, if possible, but I realize that might not be the case.
Thanks again. It's way more complicated than I originally thought. I apreciate all the help.

 

[DeeAnna]

Oh, I see what you mean. In that case, I'd mess with just one quart of LS first -- add 1 tsp to it, stir, see what happens, add another, etc. Then when you know about how much KOH solution you need per quart, you can try dosing the other 3 quarts the same as you did the first quart.

 

[annie7216]

It worked!

Thank you DeeAnna, it worked! My LS is now a rich amber color, and clear. I swore I wouldn't make LS again, but now I'm already thinking about starting a new batch. Funny what a little success will do.

My final question, I hope, is whether the LS is ready to be used or not. Having just added a diluted KOH solution to it, does it need a time period to fully saponify? I did test the LS with ph paper (which I realize is not the best tool since I only get a color indicator for the ph), but it gave me an estimate of 8-9. But because this KOH solution was not subjected to a cooking process, I'm hesitant to use it right away.

Thank you so so much for all the help. It is greatly appreciated.

 

[Susie]

It is good to go now. That is the beauty of LS. No 4-6 week waiting to try it.

Congratulations!