Liquid soap PH help

[Justcallmewillie]

Had a quart of finished soap. I had used the same formula in the shower and it worked fine meaning it rinsed clean, lathered plenty, cleaned well and was clear. I was curious about PH so I dipped the calibrated meter in the solution which read 4.13. Ok, let’s add some koh solution and try to bring that up I said. Did that and got honey. The meter didn’t read it either. The meter has turned out to be something I’ll blow apart with the rifle at this point. I guess I’m stuck with I have no idea what the ph is now nor have I any idea what mess was made with the amber honey pot as now it’s chemically hot, doesn’t lather and needs some citric acid. The meter is a dr. Meter . What should be done?

 

[DeeAnna]

My advice about what to do is give up the idea that pH is an important value to know as a hobby soap maker.

The more important thing is to know for safety is if a fully saponified soap has excess alkali or not. The zap test or a free alkali test will tell you that. The pH value alone cannot .... cannot .... cannot .... tell you that information.

At a pH of 4, if that was indeed an accurate value, you could not have possibly had lye-based soap -- the soap would have fully decomposed into fatty acids. It's possible a cleanser made with synthetic detergents could have a pH of 4, but then the rules have changed because it's not lye-based soap.

To get accurate pH readings, you have to follow the correct procedure to test soap pH. A pH meter can't provide an accurate answer if you stick the pH probe in finished liquid soap. The soap has to be diluted.

If you don't believe me that pH isn't all that critically important to know, get Kevin Dunn's book Scientific Soapmaking and read specifically Chapter 15, Alkalinity. Also see my soap chemistry articles here -- Soapy Stuff

 

[gloopygloop]

I totally echo what DeeAnnna said.
And I cant tell you how many pH meters I have lined up to shoot!

 

[Justcallmewillie]

My advice about what to do is give up the idea that pH is an important value to know as a hobby soap maker.

The more important thing is to know for safety is if a fully saponified soap has excess alkali or not. The zap test or a free alkali test will tell you that. The pH value alone cannot .... cannot .... cannot .... tell you that information.

At a pH of 4, if that was indeed an accurate value, you could not have possibly had lye-based soap -- the soap would have fully decomposed into fatty acids. It's possible a cleanser made with synthetic detergents could have a pH of 4, but then the rules have changed because it's not lye-based soap.

To get accurate pH readings, you have to follow the correct procedure to test soap pH. A pH meter can't provide an accurate answer if you stick the pH probe in finished liquid soap. The soap has to be diluted.

If you don't believe me that pH isn't all that critically important to know, get Kevin Dunn's book Scientific Soapmaking and read specifically Chapter 15, Alkalinity. Also see my soap chemistry articles here -- Soapy Stuff

Thank you DeeAnna. The soap is diluted and has sat out for 7 days….looks like morning pee. I was curious about PH, which in turn led to utter disaster. I’ll get Kevin’s book and try to find your articles. I used to make bar soap 25 years ago but I have always wanted to make liquid. Is there any way I can fix the mess I made or just pour it out?

I totally echo what DeeAnnna said.
And I cant tell you how many pH meters I have lined up to shoot!

This one, my first meter, dr meter, is trash. It doesn’t seem to calibrate, won’t test my spring water because it’s all over the place. The diluted soap I tested supposedly tested a 4.13. Dr bronners tested 6.11. Water was 5.58 then 4.8 then 6 etc…without a known point, I’m now lost and can’t even go mad scientist. What I do know is the diluted soap (before last night) did as I wanted in the shower and tested on my gf. She has very dry skin snd ultra sensitive to soaps. This was fine to her. I gave a bottle to some work friends and they liked it. So I guess curiosity got the best of me in that I now have a ruined quart of diluted mess that’s either going to be fixed or dumped in the garden

 

[ResolvableOwl]

What a crappy pH meter. All the difficulties aside that pH meters generally have with concentrated organic solutions in general, and soap in particular – this is just pathetic. I guess you won't repeat that error to believe such numbers more than the experience that a decent, well-performing soap gives you.

Have you measured/weighed the amount of KOH you had added to that now-unsafe soap? If yes, it'd be a starting point for the amount of citric acid to add to neutralise it. Potassium citrate is a chelator. If you manage to get it just on point, you could use up this citrate-enriched LS as an addition to further LS batches to lower soap scum formation/help lather in hard water, or to slow down rancidity in recipes high in poly-unsaturated fats, or to kick-start saponification.

 

[Zany_in_CO]

Ok, let’s add some koh solution and try to bring that up I said. Did that and got honey.

If you know how much KOH you added, figuring the amount of water and oil/fat needed for that amount of KOH should get you back in business. Just warm oil & soap to about 140-160°F to combine. Maintain heat while stirring to emulsify and let it sit for a couple of weeks. If it separates, warm it back up an stir some more. At least that's what I would try.

 

[ResolvableOwl]

Good point, I didn't think of adding more oils (although I have done it multiple times already), it's the best solution.

You might to add a bit more water when things start to become too thick.

 

[Justcallmewillie]

What a crappy pH meter. All the difficulties aside that pH meters generally have with concentrated organic solutions in general, and soap in particular – this is just pathetic. I guess you won't repeat that error to believe such numbers more than the experience that a decent, well-performing soap gives you.

Have you measured/weighed the amount of KOH you had added to that now-unsafe soap? If yes, it'd be a starting point for the amount of citric acid to add to neutralise it. Potassium citrate is a chelator. If you manage to get it just on point, you could use up this citrate-enriched LS as an addition to further LS batches to lower soap scum formation/help lather in hard water, or to slow down rancidity in recipes high in poly-unsaturated fats, or to kick-start saponification.

That’s one of the problems. Um, I went mad scientist and mixed a very strong Koh solution so I could add drops to bring it up to par. Well, I have no clue how strong the solution was, added more then more then more etc….I’ll toss this crap in the garden and dilute some more. Like a complicated cook book recipe, if the steps involved for liquid soap are too calculated, too complicated, laboratory type settings with this n that added then the hobby is no longer fun. But, I pay try to play with potassium citrate at some point

Good point, I didn't think of adding more oils (although I have done it multiple times already), it's the best solution.

You might to add a bit more water when things start to become too thick.

I took the honey pot snd halved it. Then brought each half up with water. Wow! this is a sucky product and should have just left it alone cause it was perfectly fine and now it’s 2 clicks down from utter disaster

 

[Susie]

Even when you think something is utterly lost, do not just add other ingredients willy-nilly. Stop and ask us. If you know your exact recipe and whether or not your scale was recently checked, we can help you fix most soap. That is the best part about liquid soap, you can still fix it as long as you know what went into it.

 

[Justcallmewillie]

Even when you think something is utterly lost, do not just add other ingredients willy-nilly. Stop and ask us. If you know your exact recipe and whether or not your scale was recently checked, we can help you fix most soap. That is the best part about liquid soap, you can still fix it as long as you know what went into it.

I think what’s going on here is I put my boots on before my pants. What I have at home are containers of paste with no citric acid added. I found today the soap making friend calculator that has the helpful additions of citric acid. Now, is that added in with the koh and distilled water? Or is the acid added afterwards?
I’m quite embarrassed to say, but I will, that after the soap paste was made, I took 8oz of the paste into a quart bottle and added 24oz distilled water. That’s what I’ve been using in the shower.
the recipe that worked is pictured.

 

[Susie]

I think my first question is what percent of superfat did you choose?

Second question is why do you think you need to add citric acid? What is the goal?

Then, one comment that is totally unasked for and therefore can simply be ignored: Typically most of us find that adding amount less than 5% of oils has no real effect on the quality of the soap. Unless you are selling and simply want it for label appeal.

 

[Justcallmewillie]

I think my first question is what percent of superfat did you choose?

Second question is why do you think you need to add citric acid? What is the goal?

Then, one comment that is totally unasked for and therefore can simply be ignored: Typically most of us find that adding amount less than 5% of oils has no real effect on the quality of the soap. Unless you are selling and simply want it for label appeal.

I chose 5% super fat.
The goal for the mix is super fluffy/creamy lather, clean rinse, cleaning properties without overly drying.
For the third question, I don’t know

 

[Zany_in_CO]

after the soap paste was made, I took 8oz of the paste into a quart bottle and added 24oz distilled water. That’s what I’ve been using in the shower. the recipe that worked is pictured.

As you recently found out, MMS lye calc doesn't work well for LS. I'm surprised your LS turned out as well as it did. I use SoapCalc.

For formulating LS choose Water:Lye Ratio and type in 3:1 and 0% SF so you have the least amount of unsaponified oils floating around.

Also, your recipe looks like a hard bar recipe made with KOH. That's not a problem if that works for you but, for clear LS, this may help you to choose oils for greater clarity.

WHAT TO EXPECT FROM VARIOUS OILS IN LS

This page shows the difference between MMS lye calc and others that are better suited to formulating with KOH:

 

[Justcallmewillie]

As you recently found out, MMS lye calc doesn't work well for LS. I'm surprised your LS turned out as well as it did. I use SoapCalc.

For formulating LS choose Water:Lye Ratio and type in 3:1 and 0% SF so you have the least amount of unsaponified oils floating around.

View attachment 60402
Also, your recipe looks like a hard bar recipe made with KOH. That's not a problem if that works for you but, for clear LS, this may help you to choose oils for greater clarity.

WHAT TO EXPECT FROM VARIOUS OILS IN LS

This page shows the difference between MMS lye calc and others that are better suited to formulating with KOH:View attachment 60403

Thank you @Zany_in_CO for this info especially the oil help cause I had no idea. My GF skin is so dry with commercial products that she has to use lotion afterwards. After using mine, that’s no longer the case.
I did notice MMS isn’t all that lovely for LS but, after initial goo in the pot, I bumped the heat to medium for a bit just to get a little translucent color in the product then went into the 190* until it was all Vaseline like. Oven off and sat there overnight. I’m currently messing with soap making friend calc from last night as I didn’t get your message until today. It seems like a nice system.
At a water/lye 3:1 mix, that’s a lot of water. Does the end product look more like watery goo? Or is it like a little wetter school paste?
I’ll formulate a batch at 3:1 and 0 SF using a small amount of oils then report. Might be a few days but I will report.
Aside from the oils mentioned in your post, which other ones would you suggest? I’ve got hemp seed, grape seed, apricot kernel, castor, jojoba, some butters, palm kernel and really need to use these up before I obtain more so the ones I do have Dont turn bad on me.
is there a page somewhere that gives minimum maximum % oils? Also need to make one for winter cause that time of year is the worst for dry skin

 

[Zany_in_CO]

I make several different recipes but for "normal" LS I recommend 50% Coconut or PKO (Palm Kernel Oil) plus 50% oil(s) of choice. My friends & family favorite is 50/50 PKO & Lard. Catherine Failor, who wrote "the bible" on liquid soap making, has a formula called "High Foaming Cold Cream Soap" that's "great for dry skin".

71% Coconut or PKO or a combo of both
23% Castor Oil
6% palm oil or tallow or one of your butters

Also, since I don't know where you got your recipe/method, or whether you "winged it", I hope you don't mind if I suggest you read this tutorial to cover the basics of making liquid soap.

BASIC BEGINNER LIQUID SOAP TUTORIAL

is there a page somewhere that gives minimum maximum % oils?

The closest thing is the link to oils I posted above. As in hard bars, it's pretty much up to you to decide what you like. You might like an opaque liquid soap that looks like milk; while I'm pretty OCD about clarity. There are about as many ways to make LS as there are LS-ers!

Your next hurdle is DILUTION RATES.

I bumped the heat to medium for a bit just to get a little translucent color in the product then went into the 190* until it was all Vaseline like. Oven off and sat there overnight.

Well done.

At a water/lye 3:1 mix, that’s a lot of water. Does the end product look more like watery goo? Or is it like a little wetter school paste?

Haha Liquid soap IS watery. It's just the nature of the beast. You want something that lathers up, cleans and rinses off quickly leaving the skin feeling refreshed. The one LS I make that consistently delivers a shampoo-like LS is made with Rosin.

ZANY'S FLAXSEED SHAMPOO

 

[Justcallmewillie]

I make several different recipes but for "normal" LS I recommend 50% Coconut or PKO (Palm Kernel Oil) plus 50% oil(s) of choice. My friends & family favorite is 50/50 PKO & Lard. Catherine Failor, who wrote "the bible" on liquid soap making, has a formula called "High Foaming Cold Cream Soap" that's "great for dry skin".

71% Coconut or PKO or a combo of both
23% Castor Oil
6% palm oil or tallow or one of your butters

Also, since I don't know where you got your recipe/method, or whether you "winged it", I hope you don't mind if I suggest you read this tutorial to cover the basics of making liquid soap.

BASIC BEGINNER LIQUID SOAP TUTORIAL


The closest thing is the link to oils I posted above. As in hard bars, it's pretty much up to you to decide what you like. You might like an opaque liquid soap that looks like milk; while I'm pretty OCD about clarity. There are about as many ways to make LS as there are LS-ers!

Your next hurdle is DILUTION RATES.

Well done.

Haha Liquid soap IS watery. It's just the nature of the beast. You want something that lathers up, cleans and rinses off quickly leaving the skin feeling refreshed. The one LS I make that consistently delivers a shampoo-like LS is made with Rosin.

ZANY'S FLAXSEED SHAMPOO

Thank you again Zany. Um, my recioe/method is 100% mad scientist and most of my raw materials from the hard bar days are still good just don’t wanna go bars for a while due to space, available time and it’s a PIA as I also do custom paint when I get orders coming in.
I’ll look at the links again and have everything bookmarked.
I realize the initial formulation is liquid but i was curious what to expect with a 3:1 as my end paste is like softer school paste that sticks to everything. Working up a very small amount of ingredients now to try and will see where that ends up and report.

 

[Susie]

You are not going to want to use anything over 3% Superfat. You are going to end up with fatty acids floating on the surface of your soap. Ask me how I know. I think many of us switching from bars to LS automatically think that we need 5% SF.

 

[Justcallmewillie]

And that’s what I’ve been doing which could explain some of the issues I’ve been having. I just now did an experiment with my very first LS I have sitting here that’s terrible. Added CA to neutralize the excess alkali and that turned it cloudy.with chunks. Heating would not clear it like it originally was. I then added polysorbate 20 which cleared it up. The entire thing is terrible and will be tossed BUT the polysorbate 20 did clear it up very nicely as I’m very limited on what I have as additives

 

[Zany_in_CO]

The entire thing is terrible and will be tossed

Please, please, please give the soap a chance to do its thing. Truly. You never know what may happen over time. (i.e. 2 weeks - 6 months) You may be pleasantly surprised.

 

[Justcallmewillie]

View attachment 60421
Please, please, please give the soap a chance to do its thing. Truly. You never know what may happen over time. You may be pleasantly surprised.

True miss Zany, however this is from Januaryish, cray high alkaline, 5% SF, doesn’t lather for the life of me, but, just for you, I’ll save it in a mason jar.