Lard soaps and DOS?

[Bari b]

I am a new CP soaper and was checking out my past soaps today and found one of my latest ones has spots that I think might be DOS. This is my 7th batch of soap and it was made on 5/17, so just now 4 weeks old. This was one of my first two tries at a 50% lard batch. I based it on one of @shunt2011 's basic recipes.

Here is the recipe I used along with notes -

When I was looking at (okay, I will be honest..."fondling" may be more accurate! ) my soap this afternoon I found some spots on this batch. Here are a couple of pictures -



Are those DOS and if so any ideas on what may be causing it? I haven't had any other DOS spots until today and I found it on my very first 50% lard batch also. If it is the recipe, how can I modify it so that I won't have problems with DOS? I have heard such rave reviews about lard based soaps I really had high hopes for this!

This is the first lard batch, made on 5/5/2020, but with SaO instead of OO. I have already tried a bar of it and really like it for only a 4-6 week cure.

Here is the picture of this soap - a little harder to see because of the color of the soap.


This batch only had the spots on a bar that I had put in my "don't touch for a year" stash to try later. I have kept one bar out of each batch to try when they are "mature" just to see the differences over time.

I keep all my soaps in the laundry room - maybe too warm? The stashed bars are up above the cupboards out of the way, but perhaps they don't get enough air flow there. My other bars are all sitting on top of the dog crate in there, so they have good air flow around them. (The dog only stays in there when we have visitors we don't want him to jump on or lick to death). I live in SW Missouri, so it has started to get hot and humid. We do have air conditioning, but don't keep it super cold, just cool. I could store them in the basement where it is considerably cooler but maybe more humid.

They have not touched metal bars. They are on either paper towels or on brown paper sacks.

Next question, can I go ahead and use these soaps? I don't sell, just for personal use and to give to family and friends. I guess what I am asking is when is DOSsy too DOSsy?

Thanks for any suggestions you can give me!

 

[Obsidian]

Yes, that is DOS and its perfectly safe to use as long as its not stinky. I personally cut the spots out before using.

That is the same recipe I use and I don't get dos but there is another member here who gets dos badly with lard.

You can try 25% lard, 25% palm, that may help. Keeping the soap some place dry and cool could be helpfully too. I imagine a laundry room can get humid at times.

 

[AliOop]

The first recipe you posted has a linoleic + linolenic number of 7. The second recipe you posted has a linoleic + linolenic total of 22.

Conventional soaping wisdom says to keep your total linoleic + linolenic total at 15 or below to avoid DOS. So I would venture that if you are already getting DOS on the bars made with that low number of 7, as well as the one at 22, you may want to try eliminating that first. You can also use high-oleic versions of the safflower and sunflower oils to see if that helps.

I've never gotten DOS on my lard soaps, but apparently it does happen, so that if dropping the L+L number doesn't help, you could try dropping the lard. But I'd try lowering or removing the others first.

 

[Jersey Girl]

The first recipe you posted has a linoleic + linolenic number of 7. The second recipe you posted has a linoleic + linolenic total of 22.

Conventional soaping wisdom says to keep your total linoleic + linolenic total at 15 or below to avoid DOS. So I would venture that if you are already getting DOS on the bars made with that low number of 7, as well as the one at 22, you may want to try eliminating that first. You can also use high-oleic versions of the safflower and sunflower oils to see if that helps.

I've never gotten DOS on my lard soaps, but apparently it does happen, so that if dropping the L+L number doesn't help, you could try dropping the lard. But I'd try lowering or removing the others first.

You inspired me to make a 70% lard soap today. I’m hoping I have your experience and don’t get DOS! I’ve never use that high a percentage of lard and the batter was such a beautiful light color. And then I went and colored it with purples and made a pointy layer soap. Lol.

 

[shunt2011]

I think it may be how you stored the soap. I rarely ever get DOS in my soaps. If I do, it's generally a soap I've had quite some time and have lugged it back and forth to shows where they've sat out in the heat and some sunshine. I would store it where theirs good circulation and not so warm as a laundry room perhaps.

As Obsidian said maybe mix lard and palm? I've no done that thus far so not sure what kind of difference it may make but may be worth a shot.

 

[AliOop]

You inspired me to make a 70% lard soap today. I’m hoping I have your experience and don’t get DOS! I’ve never use that high a percentage of lard and the batter was such a beautiful light color. And then I went and colored it with purples and made a pointy layer soap. Lol.

Yes, it is a nice light color and so swirlable! Please show your bars when cut!

 

[Jersey Girl]

Yes, it is a nice light color and so swirlable! Please show your bars when cut!

Well, it didn’t turn out as expected as I used a mica that I didn’t realize can turn gray in cp. It’s called Blackberry and it’s from NS and it’s a beautiful deep deep purple in the jar. I’ve since learned it’s great for M&P but not for cp. So I have a strange gray layer I didn’t count on. Lol. I cut it after 12 hours and the soap is super smooth feeling. I can’t wait to try it. And as you said, I had lots of time with this recipe. It was exactly relaxing to make soap for a change. Lol.

 

[AliOop]

OH, I saw those in the other thread but didn't realize those were your lard soaps. I think they are gorgeous! that gray-taupe-y color actually sets off the pinks really well. And those pointy layers

 

[SPowers]

You inspired me to make a 70% lard soap today. I’m hoping I have your experience and don’t get DOS! I’ve never use that high a percentage of lard and the batter was such a beautiful light color. And then I went and colored it with purples and made a pointy layer soap. Lol.

Can I ask what oils you used for the other 30%?

 

[Garden Gives Me Joy]

You inspired me to make a 70% lard soap today. I’m hoping I have your experience and don’t get DOS! I’ve never use that high a percentage of lard and the batter was such a beautiful light color. [...]

Go for it! On 27 Jan 2019, I made a batch with 75% palm oil shortening (which, please correct me if I am wrong, can be considered a type of 'lard'). Apart from being hard enough to cause a concussion, thanks too to the coconut oil, the 4 remaining bars are still free of odor or DOS, even though I had forgotten them in a plastic bag after moving house in July. [Forgive me! That storage situation sounds bad]. I asked a friend to test 3 of my soaps, one of which was the Jan 2019 one. She said it was 'excellent'.

Their good condition is oddly surprising when considering that I live in a very high humidity environment. What is interesting though is that some months ago, I had found one bar from that Jan 2019 batch that I had tested before tossing it into it a separate bag. That bar had mildew. Although the topic is DOS, the difference clearly illustrates how important storage conditions are.

The first recipe you posted has a linoleic + linolenic number of 7. The second recipe you posted has a linoleic + linolenic total of 22.

Conventional soaping wisdom says to keep your total linoleic + linolenic total at 15 or below to avoid DOS. So I would venture that if you are already getting DOS on the bars made with that low number of 7, as well as the one at 22, you may want to try eliminating that first. You can also use high-oleic versions of the safflower and sunflower oils to see if that helps. [...]

The other really confusing detail about the 4 DOS-free bars is that their L + L scores are so high at 34 + 5 (ie if I enter palm oil shortening as 'Crisco New w/palm'. Those scores are 9+0 if I enter 'lard'). If I am correct to use 'Crisco new w palm', then I am stumped and feeling diffident re knowing when and why DOS will occur! I only just last week got my first ever batch of DOS since soaping for personal use in late 2015. The fact that the reasons are so elusive trouble me. How do people selling deal with the apparently unexpected appearance of DOS? Do customers complain?

 

[Bari b]

Thank you all for the responses! Kids and sporting events and life have kept me off the computer since I posted this, but I have read the responses and have been "researching!". I also cut a loaf of soap I made the other day and may have pinpointed part of the problem.....I started to use a metal shop-type tape measure to mark my soap loaf prior to cutting....and then thought, "AH HA! That can't be good to expose my soap to some nasty old metal tape measure!" And I had only done that on the last few batches I have made, so hopefully that was my problem! Anyway, I now have my plastic architectural scale out to measure in the future.

Yes, that is DOS and its perfectly safe to use as long as its not stinky. I personally cut the spots out before using.

That is the same recipe I use and I don't get dos but there is another member here who gets dos badly with lard.

You can try 25% lard, 25% palm, that may help. Keeping the soap some place dry and cool could be helpfully too. I imagine a laundry room can get humid at times.

Thank you, Obsidian. I have moved ALL my soaps down into the basement where it is much cooler and it is dark. They were in the laundry room upstairs where it gets quite a bit hotter and they were by a window. I also cut out the spots already on the soap and separated the ones with DOS from those that don't, so hopefully they won't get any more and the non-DOSsy soaps won't get any!

The first recipe you posted has a linoleic + linolenic number of 7. The second recipe you posted has a linoleic + linolenic total of 22.

Conventional soaping wisdom says to keep your total linoleic + linolenic total at 15 or below to avoid DOS. So I would venture that if you are already getting DOS on the bars made with that low number of 7, as well as the one at 22, you may want to try eliminating that first. You can also use high-oleic versions of the safflower and sunflower oils to see if that helps.

I've never gotten DOS on my lard soaps, but apparently it does happen, so that if dropping the L+L number doesn't help, you could try dropping the lard. But I'd try lowering or removing the others first.

AliOop (Love your name by the way!) I am now researching fatty acid profiles. I read Deeanna's stuff on it and have been taking notes. That seems a much easier way to figure out the "numbers" than by the bubbly lather, cleansing, etc, properties. I have been checking all my other batches. All but that one batch are under 10 for L+L. The single batch that has L+L of 22 had only one small spot of DOS on the whole batch (so far!). The really bad batch with DOS is the blue swirl batch with L+L of 8. I am hoping it is an outlier and was actually caused by using a shop tape measure to determine my cuts on the loaf. We will see. Anyway, I am learning a lot and have found I like looking at the FA numbers instead of the "soap quality" numbers. I am going to begin with Deeanna's starting points and will work from there, keeping the lard in for now.

You inspired me to make a 70% lard soap today. I’m hoping I have your experience and don’t get DOS! I’ve never use that high a percentage of lard and the batter was such a beautiful light color. And then I went and colored it with purples and made a pointy layer soap. Lol.

Jersey Girl, that is beautiful soap, even with the gray, which I happen to like! Your pointy layers are perfect!

What other oils and percentages did you use in your soap? I have a 70% lard recipe in my to-try pile.. LOL.

I think it may be how you stored the soap. I rarely ever get DOS in my soaps. If I do, it's generally a soap I've had quite some time and have lugged it back and forth to shows where they've sat out in the heat and some sunshine. I would store it where theirs good circulation and not so warm as a laundry room perhaps.

Shunt2011, I am hoping it was how I stored the soap, that and the metal tape measure. Hopefully it is fixed and I am going to keep on trying with the Lard and see what happens. This one developed DOS very quickly, so hopefully I will know if it is the lard fairly quickly! Thank you for all the help you offer!

Go for it! On 27 Jan 2019, I made a batch with 75% palm oil shortening (which, please correct me if I am wrong, can be considered a type of 'lard'). Apart from being hard enough to cause a concussion, thanks too to the coconut oil, the 4 remaining bars are still free of odor or DOS, even though I had forgotten them in a plastic bag after moving house in July. [Forgive me! That storage situation sounds bad]. I asked a friend to test 3 of my soaps, one of which was the Jan 2019 one. She said it was 'excellent'.

Their good condition is oddly surprising when considering that I live in a very high humidity environment. What is interesting though is that some months ago, I had found one bar from that Jan 2019 batch that I had tested before tossing it into it a separate bag. That bar had mildew. Although the topic is DOS, the difference clearly illustrates how important storage conditions are.

The other really confusing detail about the 4 DOS-free bars is that their L + L scores are so high at 34 + 5 (ie if I enter palm oil shortening as 'Crisco New w/palm'. Those scores are 9+0 if I enter 'lard'). If I am correct to use 'Crisco new w palm', then I am stumped and feeling diffident re knowing when and why DOS will occur! I only just last week got my first ever batch of DOS since soaping for personal use in late 2015. The fact that the reasons are so elusive trouble me. How do people selling deal with the apparently unexpected appearance of DOS? Do customers complain?

I am with you, Garden Gives Me Joy. This was my first experience with DOS and you have to be a detective to figure out what is going on sometimes!

 

[AliOop]

@Bari b I love your positive attitude about it all! I didn't realize you had used a metal tape measure that may have touched the soap, and yes, that could have been a cause for sure.

I used to cure on "stainless" racks but then found out that cheap stainless gets little cracks, and underneath it is cheap metal that does create DOS on soap. Ah well, live and learn. BTW, I had actually used up all those bars before I ever found out that the orange spreading areas were DOS... and I lived to tell the tale!

 

[Garden Gives Me Joy]

[...] ....I started to use a metal shop-type tape measure to mark my soap loaf prior to cutting....and then thought, "AH HA! [...]

@Bari b
[...] I used to cure on "stainless" racks but then found out that cheap stainless gets little cracks, and underneath it is cheap metal that does create DOS on soap. [...]

Eureka! Hadn't known about causing DOS until today. Turns out that I used a stainless steel strainer for the brine lye solution and since some of the salt had not dissolved as well as in the earlier batch, I really turned the liquid around the strainer and then scooped around with a SS utensil (most likely the cheap grade). The utensil is the more likely culprit though.

Is there a special type of plastic strainer that may be used when straining brine lye water?

 

[cmzaha]

I am the member that gets Dos badly when using lard, so I never use it over 27% mixing it with either 40% tallow or palm. Obsidian knows for a fact the misery I have with lard. A few years ago I did testing with several available brands of lard and everyone came down with extreme dos. Lard is just not my friend over 27% as much as I like it. I also add EDTA, and Sodium Gluconate. ETA: I forgot to mention I superfat at 2% so that is not the issue.

 

[AliOop]

I am the member that gets Dos badly when using lard, so I never use it over 27% mixing it with either 40% tallow or palm. Obsidian knows for a fact the misery I have with lard. A few years ago I did testing with several available brands of lard and everyone came down with extreme dos. Lard is just not my friend over 27% as much as I like it. I also add EDTA, and Sodium Gluconate. ETA: I forgot to mention I superfat at 2% so that is not the issue.

What a bummer! I love my lard soaps and would hate to lose them to DOS!

 

[Jersey Girl]

Can I ask what oils you used for the other 30%?

I used 25% CO and 5% Castor.

 

[SPowers]

Thanks! I made my first lard soap today - turns out I was bit short on Lard so subbed some Palm (I put it through soapcalc) . I used 60% lard; 15% Palm; 20% CO & 5% Caster Oil. It was really nice to work with such a slow moving batter! I tried to duplicate a Drop Swirl I saw on Youtube... waiting with bated breath for the cut tomorrow.

 

[Bari b]

I wanted to update everyone on my DOS issues. I moved all my curing soap down to the basement where it is cool and dark. Prior to moving I shaved off all the DOS spots that had appeared on the only two batches it affected. Since that time I have had NO more DOS show up on any of these batches.

I also am now using a plastic architect's scale to mark off where to cut my soap instead of the metal tape measure that has been used on who-knows-what. Again, no DOS on any of the new batches.

Hopefully, the DOS resulted from those two issues and I won't have to deal with any more! I am still trying to use the two affected batches quickly....just in case!

Thank you all so much for your advice and wisdom!

 

[cmzaha]

What a bummer! I love my lard soaps and would hate to lose them to DOS!

I seem to one of the few that has problems. The other issue I run into is GM lard soaps, for me if they are pushing the year mark I very often smell an old off smell. Many times my soaps will hang around a year or two if they prove to be very slow sellers.