Just found Grandmother's soap recipe

[Nibiru2020]

Wow, I know it is an old recipe now, Sassafras, according to Google, was banned in the 1960's as some sort of toxin, hmmmm, need to look further into this ingredient. BUT, I have found some, so I will get it to make thiss as close to hers as possible.

Please get your facts straight. It is not a toxin, if ingested in LARGE quantities it may be carcinogenic. Of course when the FDA test something in the lab on animals, it's usually in the dosage of hundreds of time what the normal consumption would be. ANYTHING in excess is detrimental. It's oil is also used as a precursor for a couple of controlled substances, and that oil is Safrole oil.

Heck... living on the planet Earth causes cancer, it is just that most people don't realize that. Just because the MSM states something doesn't make it necessarily correct.

At Wikipedia here's what the concerns are/were:

Sassafras albidum is used primarily in the United States as the key ingredient in home brewed root beer and as a thickener and flavouring in traditional Louisiana Creole gumbo.

Filé powder, also called gumbo filé, for its use in making gumbo, is a spicy herb made from the dried and ground leaves of the sassafras tree. It was traditionally used by Native Americans in the Southern United States, and was adopted into Louisiana Creole cuisine. Use of filé powder by the Choctaw in the Southern United States in cooking is linked to the development of gumbo, the signature dish of Louisiana Creole cuisine that features ground sassafras leaves.[21] The leaves and root bark can be pulverized to flavor soup and gravy, and meat, respectively.[11]

Sassafras roots are used to make traditional root beer, although they were banned for commercially mass-produced foods and drugs by the U.S. Food and Drug Administration in 1960.[22] Laboratory animals that were given oral doses of sassafras tea or sassafras oil that contained large doses of safrole developed permanent liver damage or various types of cancer.[22] In humans, liver damage can take years to develop and it may not have obvious signs. Along with commercially available Sarsaparilla, sassafras remains an ingredient in use among hobby or microbrew enthusiasts. While sassafras is no longer used in commercially produced root beer and is sometimes substituted with artificial flavors, natural extracts with the safrole distilled and removed are available.[23][24] Most commercial root beers have replaced the sassafras extract with methyl salicylate, the ester found in wintergreen and black birch (Betula lenta) bark.

Sassafras tea was also banned in the U.S. in 1977, but the ban was lifted with the passage of the Dietary Supplement Health and Education Act in 1994.

You can still buy File' powder to this day... so it is not a toxin, in the sense of the word. Coffee could be considered a toxin in large amounts, so could salt, even water in very large amounts is a toxin aka "water toxicity": Water intoxication, also known as water poisoning, hyperhydration, overhydration, or water toxemia, is a potentially fatal disturbance in brain functions that results when the normal balance of electrolytes in the body is pushed outside safe limits by excessive water intake.
Humans who consume large amounts of alcohol, or large amounts of acetaminophen, or large amounts of cinnamon, etc., suffer liver damage too.

Regarding Safrole Oil:

Safrole oil, aromatic uses, MDMA[edit]
Further information: Safrole
Safrole can be obtained fairly easily from the root bark of Sassafras albidum via steam distillation. It has been used as a natural insect or pest deterrent.[20] Godfrey's Cordial, as well as other tonics given to children that consisted of opiates, used sassafras to disguise other strong smells and odours associated with the tonics. It was also used as an additional flavoring to mask the strong odors of homemade liquor in the United States.[27]

Commercial "sassafras oil," which contains safrole, is generally a byproduct of camphor production in Asia or comes from related trees in Brazil. Safrole is a precursor for the manufacture of the drug MDMA, as well as the drug MDA (3-4 methylenedioxyamphetamine) and as such, its transport is monitored internationally. Safrole is a List I precursor chemical according to the U.S. Drug Enforcement Administration

So it would be quite safe to scent the soap using Sassafras. I apologize for the long-winded reply to your statement.

Like Sgt. Joe Friday used to say: "The facts, Ma'am... just the facts."

 

[slipperybubbles]

Thank you Nibi for the in depth information dive, very nice. I have already ordered a bottle of the sassafras oil, and will report back on the attempt of re-creating her soap.

 

[nonna oakie]

I think this is laundry soap - ammonia for extra cleaning.

 

[slipperybubbles]

nonna, I agree, a bit lye heavy in my newbie opinion. When I get a chance to talk to her, I hope to get more information.

 

[Nibiru2020]

Thank you Nibi for the in depth information dive, very nice. I have already ordered a bottle of the sassafras oil, and will report back on the attempt of re-creating her soap.

You called me Nibi... and we're not even dating! LOL!

 

[The_Phoenix]

That's basically how I learned to make soap back in the mid 60's. I'd stay at my grandparents house for a week each summer and I would do the grunt work in making their soap for the year. (I got my yearly supply also.)

She used rendered bacon fat (I did all the rendering on that first day).

On the second day my grandmother had the recipe and weighed out the ingredients. The way I remember it was the bacon fat, some ammonia, olive oil (no borax that I remember) and lye. My grandfather bought all the supplies and made the large wooden square molds to hold the soap in. (The largest ingredient was the rendered bacon fat.......probably around 60/70 percent.)

One MAJOR difference is they hot processed it right over the stove flame and I was the stirrer of the mixture. I stirred, and stirred and stirred..........then stirred some more until it got to the mashed potatoes texture. Grandpa and grandma would drink their beer and wine respectively and we would talk, and talk.........and talk some more. Good times.

At the mashed potato stage grandma then tossed in some fragrance oil concoction and then I stirred a bit again. (I can't remember the actual smell very much, kinda fruity IIRC.)

The third day my grandfather would unmold it and cut it all into bars. (I was the cleaner of all the stuff....LOL!)

Turned out good and helped with my lifelong psoriasis ailment.

That is probably why I still use the double boiler method. (They didn't use the double boiler so I had to be more hands on when looking for that mashed potato look and STIRRING REGULARLY.)

We had a good time and I wish I could go back and see them again for that annual week in the summer visit. Did that for quite a few years.

I never did get her recipe and when making my own soap I got recipes from library books. Simple stuff, nothing complicated.

What a lovely story. Thank you for sharing.

 

[Guspuppy]

This is so cool! I can't wait to see how it turns out!

 

[SPowers]

Would parchment be the closest match here?

I would think freezerbutcher's paper might be similar... it is kind of 'oily' on the one side.

 

[SPowers]

That's basically how I learned to make soap back in the mid 60's. I'd stay at my grandparents house for a week each summer and I would do the grunt work in making their soap for the year. (I got my yearly supply also.)

She used rendered bacon fat (I did all the rendering on that first day).

On the second day my grandmother had the recipe and weighed out the ingredients. The way I remember it was the bacon fat, some ammonia, olive oil (no borax that I remember) and lye. My grandfather bought all the supplies and made the large wooden square molds to hold the soap in. (The largest ingredient was the rendered bacon fat.......probably around 60/70 percent.)

One MAJOR difference is they hot processed it right over the stove flame and I was the stirrer of the mixture. I stirred, and stirred and stirred..........then stirred some more until it got to the mashed potatoes texture. Grandpa and grandma would drink their beer and wine respectively and we would talk, and talk.........and talk some more. Good times.

At the mashed potato stage grandma then tossed in some fragrance oil concoction and then I stirred a bit again. (I can't remember the actual smell very much, kinda fruity IIRC.)

The third day my grandfather would unmold it and cut it all into bars. (I was the cleaner of all the stuff....LOL!)

Turned out good and helped with my lifelong psoriasis ailment.

That is probably why I still use the double boiler method. (They didn't use the double boiler so I had to be more hands on when looking for that mashed potato look and STIRRING REGULARLY.)

We had a good time and I wish I could go back and see them again for that annual week in the summer visit. Did that for quite a few years.

I never did get her recipe and when making my own soap I got recipes from library books. Simple stuff, nothing complicated.

My husband talks of helping his grandmother make soap and the story is pretty much as I recall the telling.

 

[Primrose]

nonna, I agree, a bit lye heavy in my newbie opinion. When I get a chance to talk to her, I hope to get more information.

2 to 3% superfat is not lye heavy

 

[slipperybubbles]

2 to 3% superfat is not lye heavy

heavier than what I have been doing so far, 5-7%

 

[DeeAnna]

heavier than what I have been doing so far, 5-7%

But Primrose is right ... it's not lye heavy at all. I accept that it is less superfat than you want, but lye heavy it's not.

Many of us use a 2-3% superfat with very good results. If my soap at 2-3% superfat was truly lye heavy, I guarantee I would not be doing that.

Remember too that soap with more superfat is not a milder soap. This is a common misconception.

 

[Bar Blender's]

I make my old fashioned soap and my original blend soap with lard. Purified and then I filter it in the screen strainer after it's completely melted. A good rule of thumb when working with large is about 35% lye. And then the same for the lie to water ratio. Adding a little sea salt to the lard when it is melting helps it harden and neutralize some of the smell. It's a simple great recipe. Adding the borax and ammonia I think that was more of a laundry bar or to get more of a foaming lather or as an all-in-one soap bar that could be used for almost anything. so to recap on my rule of thumb why recommendation. About 35% lye to fat.

 

[KimW]

I make my old fashioned soap and my original blend soap with lard. Purified and then I filter it in the screen strainer after it's completely melted. A good rule of thumb when working with large is about 35% lye. And then the same for the lie to water ratio. Adding a little sea salt to the lard when it is melting helps it harden and neutralize some of the smell. It's a simple great recipe. Adding the borax and ammonia I think that was more of a laundry bar or to get more of a foaming lather or as an all-in-one soap bar that could be used for almost anything. so to recap on my rule of thumb why recommendation. About 35% lye to fat.

When you say "About 35% lye to fat.", are you saying to take the amount of lard, multiply it by .35 (35%), and then use that number as the amount of lye?

It is easy to misunderstand replies, so I try to not give unsolicited cautions, but if this IS indeed what you are saying, then I must speak to your reply here.

What you are proposing with this "rule of thumb" is a bar that would be a -22% (that's negative 22%) superfat. That's not what I would consider safe for an all-in-one soap bar that one would use on hands and body, or even for household cleaning. Garage concrete floor, maybe, but not for hands or counter tops.

I understand this thread is about an old recipe. I understand the recipe may appear to be unmeasured, however, it really is not. If you put the original recipe through a soap calc , 13oz of lye, which is the size of these old cans of lye, for 96 ounces, which is 6 pounds, of lard it's pretty accurate for a default 5% SF. Given the other replies to this thread, the original recipe additives may have been formulated with laundry in mind, but the original recipe would make a "safe" bar of soap that was perhaps a little harsh on the hands, whereas, yours...well, I don't think it would make a safe bar of soap.

If I have misunderstood what you've written, please accept my apologies!!

 

[StoneCottageSoapworks]

Please get your facts straight. It is not a toxin, if ingested in LARGE quantities it may be carcinogenic. Of course when the FDA test something in the lab on animals, it's usually in the dosage of hundreds of time what the normal consumption would be. ANYTHING in excess is detrimental. It's oil is also used as a precursor for a couple of controlled substances, and that oil is Safrole oil.

Heck... living on the planet Earth causes cancer, it is just that most people don't realize that. Just because the MSM states something doesn't make it necessarily correct.

At Wikipedia here's what the concerns are/were:


You can still buy File' powder to this day... so it is not a toxin, in the sense of the word. Coffee could be considered a toxin in large amounts, so could salt, even water in very large amounts is a toxin aka "water toxicity": Water intoxication, also known as water poisoning, hyperhydration, overhydration, or water toxemia, is a potentially fatal disturbance in brain functions that results when the normal balance of electrolytes in the body is pushed outside safe limits by excessive water intake.
Humans who consume large amounts of alcohol, or large amounts of acetaminophen, or large amounts of cinnamon, etc., suffer liver damage too.

Regarding Safrole Oil:


So it would be quite safe to scent the soap using Sassafras. I apologize for the long-winded reply to your statement.

Like Sgt. Joe Friday used to say: "The facts, Ma'am... just the facts."

Be careful, you are quoting "Wikipedia" which is a source that ANYONE can post in and you often don't know what their credentials are! Just sayin' !

 

[Nibiru2020]

Be careful, you are quoting "Wikipedia" which is a source that ANYONE can post in and you often don't know what their credentials are! Just sayin' !

Thank you for the reminder... I've known that about Wikipedia for years. ...just sayin'.
It was just a more convenient, condensed way of explaining about Safrole oil is all.

 

[DeeAnna]

Be careful, you are quoting "Wikipedia" which is a source that ANYONE can post in and you often don't know what their credentials are! Just sayin' !

I agree, although I also think Wikipedia's reputation has gotten a lot better over the years.

That said, it's always good to verify claims made in Wikipedia with other reputable sources. I do my best to never assume controversial statements made in Wikipedia accurately reflect the consensus of people who are well informed on the subject.

Essential Oil Safety, 2nd ed, pages 421-422, by Tisserand and Young, states the safrole in sassafras essential oil is considered a weak carcinogen, and it is known to be acutely toxic to the central nervous system. Because sassafras EO contains anywhere from 62% to 97% safrole depending on the source of the EO, the EO should be handled and used with the same care as the pure chemical.

For these reasons, sassafras EO has been "...prohibited in foods for many years because of its safrole content. IFRA and the EU recommend a maximum exposure level of 0.01% of safrole from the use of safrole-containing essential oils in cosmetics.... A few drops of [ingested] sassafras oil have been considered sufficient to kill a toddler...."

Tisserand and Young's conclusion is "Due to its high safrole content we recommend that sassafras oil is not used in therapy ... either internally or externally..."

 

[Bar Blender's]

When you say "About 35% lye to fat.", are you saying to take the amount of lard, multiply it by .35 (35%), and then use that number as the amount of lye?

It is easy to misunderstand replies, so I try to not give unsolicited cautions, but if this IS indeed what you are saying, then I must speak to your reply here.

What you are proposing with this "rule of thumb" is a bar that would be a -22% (that's negative 22%) superfat. That's not what I would consider safe for an all-in-one soap bar that one would use on hands and body, or even for household cleaning. Garage concrete floor, maybe, but not for hands or counter tops.

I understand this thread is about an old recipe. I understand the recipe may appear to be unmeasured, however, it really is not. If you put the original recipe through a soap calc , 13oz of lye, which is the size of these old cans of lye, for 96 ounces, which is 6 pounds, of lard it's pretty accurate for a default 5% SF. Given the other replies to this thread, the original recipe additives may have been formulated with laundry in mind, but the original recipe would make a "safe" bar of soap that was perhaps a little harsh on the hands, whereas, yours...well, I don't think it would make a safe bar of soap.

If I have misunderstood what you've written, please accept my apologies!!

Woa! Sorry I didn't get back to you sooner here. What I'm saying is basically the lard to lye ratio is 2:1 and your water too sodium hydroxide ratio is 2:1. That ratio is basically what I do with my large soap now that's just my lard in my soap nothing else. I do add a little bit of sea salt in the finish. I get a good result with this. You can apply the ratio whether you weigh it or use a percentage. As a percentage it's about 35% lye 65% lard. being that your grandmother spoke "in parts" I'm going to say that their method was based on ratio. This is just a technique I wanted to share.

 

[GemstonePony]

Woa! Sorry I didn't get back to you sooner here. What I'm saying is basically the lard to lye ratio is 2:1 and your water too sodium hydroxide ratio is 2:1. That ratio is basically what I do with my large soap now that's just my lard in my soap nothing else. I do add a little bit of sea salt in the finish. I get a good result with this. You can apply the ratio whether you weigh it or use a percentage. As a percentage it's about 35% lye 65% lard. being that your grandmother spoke "in parts" I'm going to say that their method was based on ratio. This is just a technique I wanted to share.

So, are you advocating a ratio of 2:2:1 oil: water: NaOH?
Or are you advocating a ratio of 6:2:1 oil: water: NaOH?
It's a little hard to tell what percentage or ratio of NaOH as the batch you're referring to since lye can mean multiple things, and you switch to NaOH at the end.

 

[KimW]

Woa! Sorry I didn't get back to you sooner here. What I'm saying is basically the lard to lye ratio is 2:1 and your water too sodium hydroxide ratio is 2:1. That ratio is basically what I do with my large soap now that's just my lard in my soap nothing else. I do add a little bit of sea salt in the finish. I get a good result with this. You can apply the ratio whether you weigh it or use a percentage. As a percentage it's about 35% lye 65% lard. being that your grandmother spoke "in parts" I'm going to say that their method was based on ratio. This is just a technique I wanted to share.

Appreciate your reply. If I pick apart think hard about what you've said here, I think you mean that out of 100% of a soap batter the lye solution (meaning lye plus liquid) will usually be 35% of the total batter. Yes? Not that the lye granules/flakes will be 35% of the soap batter, which is how I (and I think most folks would) read your original post. Or, perhaps you mean that in your experience the lye solution when using a 2:1 liquid:lye ratio is 35% of the Total Oil Weight? I'm sure you know what you're talking about, but I think it important for any future new soapers to also understand what you're talking about.

ETA: Forgot to mention: If I apply my imagination to your technique and plug in an all lard recipe into a soap calc, I can get your "35%" to work in one of two ways. 1.) Assume this "35%" equals %lye solution to TotalOilWeight (that is, the weight of the lye solution is 35% of the weight of the lard), use a SF of zero (which is generally safe, but not typical), and use the liquid:lye ratio of 1.5:1 OR 2.) Assume this "35%" equals %lye solution to TOW , use a SF of 5% (the default), and use the liquid:lye ratio to 1.6:1. Neither of these liquid:lye ratios is what you cite as your ratio - but then I don't understand your ratio because while you've expressed it as "2:1" you have defined it as both "lard to lye" AND "water to sodium hydroxide". Of course this all depends on the assumption that your "35%" is lye solution and not lye granules/flakes.

I'm not trying to pick you apart or anything. I get that you're trying to speak to soaping using ratios, just as it is still done today. I am sincerely just trying to understand so that others in the future will also understand. I'm sure you make some fantastic soap.