just experimenting, interesting results

[Susie]

No, not FB, Yahoo Liquidsoapers Group.

And I am just a mod, not anything special. Some most excellent recipes in the files there, though. And super smart people I learn lots from every day. I learned more from those people about making liquid soap than I learned from every other source all added together.

ETA-No longer a mod there, but it is still a most excellent source of recipes!

 

[grayceworks]

*Mutters to self*"I have too much soap made already, I even have extra paste in the fridge. I DO NOT need to make soap. I WILL NOT make more soap until this is gone!"* #unhappySoaper.


Can you let me know about how much water it took to dilute?

Yeah, I just realized I have to get more jugs to store the diluted soap in. I thought I had another one, but can't find it. Of course it will appear in plain sight once I've ordered more lol. So it will be a few days before diluting.

I did test a pinch of the paste though, easy because it's softer than the PKO paste was, and it's very nice, squeaky clean lemon scented. Would definitely be drying to use all the time, but I made it for cleaning, not for hand-washing.

Has anyone ever used carbomer to thicken LS? I had some pre-neutralized carbomer that I've been playing with in one of my lotions, and got to thinking, hmm. Carbomer gets neutralized with alkali, like lye... in order to make a thicker gel-like consistency. Like how hand-sanitizer is...

So I ordered some regular non-neutralized carbomer, and am thinking that it might make a nice thick soap gel if added to the alkaline soap... any thoughts on whether this would work or not?

I like the idea of carbomer as opposed to other chemical thickeners because it's been shown to do absolutely nothing but thicken stuff, without polyvinyl whatevers, and without the gloopiness of xanthan or guar gums...

 

[DeeAnna]

"...No, not FB, Yahoo Liquidsoapers Group...."

Ah! I appreciate the clarification.

That's even better -- I've about given up on FB soaping groups. Too much drama, too many downright weird questions, and near impossible to find the info in useful posts once they've scrolled out of sight. Ugh.

I'm learning a lot from you and Grayce about LS. Thank you!

 

[DeeAnna]

So, Grayce, I've read your posts several times, and I'm seeing these as the key elements to your CP liquid soaping method:

Dissolve the KOH in about the same weight of water.
Add enough glycerin to the KOH-water solution to make a 35% to 40% KOH solution.
Add the lye solution to the oils.
Stick blend to light trace.
Turn your back on the soap pot and let it do it's thing.

Am I missing anything important?

 

[PrairieLights]

Adding the e/o's. At what point are y'all adding them in this CP process? I have another Q though - Can I make a batch, let it cure for a week or two, then reheat and add the e/o's??? Reheat and add booster oils???

 

[cmzaha]

@Grayce if you try the carbomer for thickening can you update your results. I hate using cellulose and would love to try something different

 

[Susie]

Adding the e/o's. At what point are y'all adding them in this CP process? I have another Q though - Can I make a batch, let it cure for a week or two, then reheat and add the e/o's??? Reheat and add booster oils???

In liquid soapmaking, regardless of method, you add FOs and EOs at the tail end of dilution once your soap has cooled below the flashpoint of the FO or EO. This prevents loss of scent as well as limiting "what the heck happened?" factors.

 

[Susie]

"...No, not FB, Yahoo Liquidsoapers Group...."

Ah! I appreciate the clarification.

That's even better -- I've about given up on FB soaping groups. Too much drama, too many downright weird questions, and near impossible to find the info in useful posts once they've scrolled out of sight. Ugh.

I'm learning a lot from you and Grayce about LS. Thank you!

I have to be honest here, Yahoo Groups are not very user friendly. But, the file section, the fact that you get everything in an email, and the overwhelming knowledge, friendliness, and helpfulness of those folks over there SO make up for the Yahoo Group thing.

 

[DeeAnna]

Prairie -- I have been adding EOs after dilution. Sometimes I've added EOs to each bottle, so I can fragrance each one differently. No need to heat -- in fact, I'd rather not heat so the scent stays in the soap rather than end up in the air. Can't speak to adding extra oils -- no experience with that.

Susie -- Thank you for the caution. I have been a member of several Yahoo groups for some years, so I'm pretty used to the system. I'm looking forward to enjoying the LS group!

 

[grayceworks]

So, Grayce, I've read your posts several times, and I'm seeing these as the key elements to your CP liquid soaping method:

Dissolve the KOH in about the same weight of water.
Add enough glycerin to the KOH-water solution to make a 35% to 40% KOH solution.
Add the lye solution to the oils.
Stick blend to light trace.
Turn your back on the soap pot and let it do it's thing.

Am I missing anything important?

DeeAnna, yes, that's pretty much it. I use roughly equal water to the KOH, and I have soapcalc set at 38% so I base my total liquid amount off of that, give or take a bit. Ummm, that's kindof a beginning number for me to estimate with.. Sometimes I fiddle the water and glycerin numbers to get easy to remember numbers instead of weird amounts, a few grams up or down on water and glycerin won't make a noticeable difference in this really. I kinda just like my glycerin to be around 90-ish% of the water amount. I've done exact 50-50 splits between water and glycerin before when doing HP liquid soap, but I use more water in that to begin with. The water in this is really reduced because I'm not cooking it. But although I 'know' I can use a smidge less water than KOH, I'd rather use a smidge more instead lol.

And then dump the paste in the crockpot on low with an equal amount of water overnight to start diluting. In the morning, see if that was enough water, or add a couple ounces at a time and stir for a few minutes, until it's all dissolved and no skin forms. Took me about 25 minutes to finish the diluting when I woke up that morning.

Now, I knew PKO and CO tended to move quick and hot in bar soap, so that's what I tried first for this experiment, and will be doing a mixed oil recipe today and update with results.

It's all still best after a couple weeks sitting once diluted, but if this whole experiment keeps living up to expectations, it will keep me from sitting over the crockpot for hours lol.

Adding the e/o's. At what point are y'all adding them in this CP process? I have another Q though - Can I make a batch, let it cure for a week or two, then reheat and add the e/o's??? Reheat and add booster oils???

Normally I add them at the end of the dilution process. Since this was an experiment, I tried adding them the same as I would for CP bar soap, to see what would happen. Which in retrospect I did not use enough, as I based it on paste weight and not diluted weight, so I'm still going to have to add more after diluting.

But the paste smells lovely lol. Was about the same as if CP bar soap had gelled, some scent loss in saponification, but not all, since it wasn't cooked on heat for hours.

@Grayce if you try the carbomer for thickening can you update your results. I hate using cellulose and would love to try something different

Absolutely! I'll probably dilute this batch on Monday night, when I'm off work. Also, I have no idea how accurate my ph meter is, I just got the cheap 12.00 one from amazon, and haven't checked the calibration yet, but seems about right so far with the stuff I've been playing around with. It's small, convenient, and fun. If it proves accurate, I'll let you know.

 

[DeeAnna]

Cool! Thanks, Grayce!

 

[grayceworks]

Ok, so experiment number 3-

I decided to try a totally new recipe that I've been thinking about. It's all liquid oils, so that obviously affects the hardness of the finished paste -- this is definitely the softest paste of the three. The PKO, which is rock-hard at room temp also made a hard paste. The CO, which is usually mushy-half-melted at room temp here made a soft paste like a thick salve. And this recipe, with all liquid oils, has turned out about like orange marmalade, in color and hardness. Thick enough that if it was CP bar soap, you could texture the top and it would keep its shape, probably will be a bit firmer as it cools, but it's still VERY hot right now.

But it is soap! The utensils got very sudsy as I washed them. No zap.

This one heated up and thickened faster than the other two initially, but it turned to applesauce as it got hotter, and I ended up just stirring it for about 10 minutes with a spoon until it passed that phase and was smooth again. Was opaque orange at that point, like butterscotch pudding, then in another 2 minutes with one or two more stirs with the spoon, had reached transparent orange jelly looking paste that could hold peaks. Still too hot to comfortably hold the outside of the plastic container, but it's only been a few minutes.

Anyhow, here's pics of the diluted PKO soap. It's clear, but the container is frosted.



And the CO paste (left) and the new paste from today (right). You can see how clear the paste is where I pushed some up on the side of the container.



Today's recipe- 3% SF
30% sunflower
25% camelina
25% castor
15% avocado
5% neem

Equal parts lye and water. Glycerin at 90% of the water amount.
Since I've added the EO's with the oils as I would in CP bar soap, like I did in the past two experiments, I did so again, this time at the correct amount for what I anticipate the diluted soap to be.

Measuring everything out - 20 min.
Mixing the lye-water and adding the glycerin - 2 minutes.
Mixing the lye into the oils - 1 minute before it started to emulsify, spoon stirred.
Stick-blending - less than 1 minute before it was too thick to blend, was like HP bar soap right before you'd stuff it into a mold.
Letting it sit while I put stuff away - 2 minutes.
Noticed it had reached the applesauce stage. The PKO and CO skipped right past that. Hand-stirred on and off for 10 minutes until smooth again. Like pudding.
Reached transparent jelly-like stage - 2 minutes. Stirred a couple times, paste holds its form. No zap.
Washed utensils, 10 minutes lol. Nice and sudsy. Yay! Probably still too 'fresh' to be using today though. I imagine this is similar to CP soap, safe to use, but will get milder as it sits.
But I had to try a bit!

So, the actual time spent from adding the lye to the oils, until it was paste, was about 16 minutes. I can deal with that.

It took me longer to write this post than it took to make the soap!

 

[PrairieLights]

Thank you Susie and Grayceworks!!! I heard that if I add e/o's once they are cooled and cured, the oils with just sit in the soap. I prefer to make a large batch (and did! yay! now my son wants to take over and make the liquid soap himself!) but want to divide and scent differently. So thank you! I will do this.
I have another Q - Why diluting to the point of needing to thicken back up??? I just diluted to the point of desired consistency. I cannot find an answer elsewhere to thinning down then thickening back up - so I ask you. *hugs*!
L

 

[Susie]

The consistency does not bother me. I put just enough water to melt the chunks of soap. I also add my EOs while the soap is still warm, just not hot.

 

[grayceworks]

Thank you Susie and Grayceworks!!! I heard that if I add e/o's once they are cooled and cured, the oils with just sit in the soap. I prefer to make a large batch (and did! yay! now my son wants to take over and make the liquid soap himself!) but want to divide and scent differently. So thank you! I will do this.
I have another Q - Why diluting to the point of needing to thicken back up??? I just diluted to the point of desired consistency. I cannot find an answer elsewhere to thinning down then thickening back up - so I ask you. *hugs*!
L

Some EO's will just sit there afterwards, helps if you add them while the soap is warm. Most mix in ok though.

Some types of liquid soap require more dilution than others to actually dissolve and stop forming that icky skin on top. Some are well diluted while still kinda viscous, but some get very watery by the time they dilute enough. And even with the thicker ones, it's often thinner than most people are used to. One side effect of using the Failor method and having to neutralize with the borax is that the borax does add a tiny bit of that thickness back in... not a lot though. Some recipes just need a sprinkle of salt to become almost a gel, while others, like coconut and pko don't thicken at all with salt and also tend to be the watery ones, therefore if you don't want hubby or kids to use half a bottle in one sink of dishes, you thicken it up... or put it in a pump or foamer. LOL

 

[grayceworks]

Oh! I like my newest batch. I haven't diluted yet, waiting on my jugs to get here... but I took a pinch of it and washed my hair with it -- I can sorta smell the neem while it's wet, but I can with the bar soap too, so that's not a big deal. The tea tree and jasmine work well enough to offset that. But my hair is very shiny and soft! Better than my shampoo bar. Curls are bouncy too. A bit frizzy, but that's just the local humidity. So I'm pretty happy with it. I wish I could figure out the blend of EO's used in this one liquid soap I found online. It smells just like this shampoo I used to use that smelled so fresh and nice and green. I want to make my soap smell like that lol.

 

[grayceworks]

Finally felt up to diluting one of these batches, decided to dilute experiment number 3.

It was still the same transparent jelly-like consistency as it was when I first made it. I started with 1/2 the paste weight of 770g in water, so 385g water. Didnt heat anything up, just added room temp water to room temp paste, stirred it a bit, let it sit overnight. Next morning, it was incorporated and was thick goo like rubber cement. Added another 385g and left it sit with lid on for a few hours. Mixed in faster this time. Still had some large clumps. Added 385g water. Let sit for a couple hours. Now at a 1.5:1 wateraste ratio, but still some stubborn clumps and skin forming. Added another 50g and then a while later another 50g for a total of 1255g water, about a 1.63:1 final wateraste ratio, and let it sit for 2hrs, stirred, didn't find any more clumps, made a nice consistency clear amber liquid, I don't think I'll need to thicken it at all. Pretty happy with this experiment!

Experiment number 2, I will see if it will dilute at room temp or not, it might -- it's almost as soft as this one.

Ok, so experiment number 3-

I decided to try a totally new recipe that I've been thinking about. It's all liquid oils, so that obviously affects the hardness of the finished paste -- this is definitely the softest paste of the three. The PKO, which is rock-hard at room temp also made a hard paste. The CO, which is usually mushy-half-melted at room temp here made a soft paste like a thick salve. And this recipe, with all liquid oils, has turned out about like orange marmalade, in color and hardness. Thick enough that if it was CP bar soap, you could texture the top and it would keep its shape, probably will be a bit firmer as it cools, but it's still VERY hot right now.

But it is soap! The utensils got very sudsy as I washed them. No zap.

This one heated up and thickened faster than the other two initially, but it turned to applesauce as it got hotter, and I ended up just stirring it for about 10 minutes with a spoon until it passed that phase and was smooth again. Was opaque orange at that point, like butterscotch pudding, then in another 2 minutes with one or two more stirs with the spoon, had reached transparent orange jelly looking paste that could hold peaks. Still too hot to comfortably hold the outside of the plastic container, but it's only been a few minutes.

Anyhow, here's pics of the diluted PKO soap. It's clear, but the container is frosted.
View attachment 8061


And the CO paste (left) and the new paste from today (right). You can see how clear the paste is where I pushed some up on the side of the container.
View attachment 8062


Today's recipe- 3% SF
30% sunflower
25% camelina
25% castor
15% avocado
5% neem

Equal parts lye and water. Glycerin at 90% of the water amount.
Since I've added the EO's with the oils as I would in CP bar soap, like I did in the past two experiments, I did so again, this time at the correct amount for what I anticipate the diluted soap to be.

Measuring everything out - 20 min.
Mixing the lye-water and adding the glycerin - 2 minutes.
Mixing the lye into the oils - 1 minute before it started to emulsify, spoon stirred.
Stick-blending - less than 1 minute before it was too thick to blend, was like HP bar soap right before you'd stuff it into a mold.
Letting it sit while I put stuff away - 2 minutes.
Noticed it had reached the applesauce stage. The PKO and CO skipped right past that. Hand-stirred on and off for 10 minutes until smooth again. Like pudding.
Reached transparent jelly-like stage - 2 minutes. Stirred a couple times, paste holds its form. No zap.
Washed utensils, 10 minutes lol. Nice and sudsy. Yay! Probably still too 'fresh' to be using today though. I imagine this is similar to CP soap, safe to use, but will get milder as it sits.
But I had to try a bit!

So, the actual time spent from adding the lye to the oils, until it was paste, was about 16 minutes. I can deal with that.

It took me longer to write this post than it took to make the soap!

 

[grayceworks]

Experiment 2 -- the 100% CO one, was a bit too sticky to dilute at RT, it was stuck like taffy in the container! I got it scooped into the crockpot, 745g paste with 745g water, turned it on low, went to bed. Was about half diluted in the morning. Added another 350g the next day, lost maybe 50g -60g to evaporation, ended up with 1775g diluted soap. It diluted exactly as well as if I'd cooked the initial paste. I really think unless I'm doing something special like shaving soap, I'm going to do all my LS by this method. No more slaving over the crockpot, will only need it for overnight diluting, which pretty much needs no supervision. I'm really, really happy with this experiment.

 

[FGOriold]

This sounds great - glad you found a method that works so well for you. Another time saver for you - if you are using part water and part glycerin, as long as you use enough water to fully dissolve your lye (I like a 1:1.1 ratio of lye:water for this), you can add your glycerin directly to your oils when heating your oils instead of with your lye water, then proceed as normal.

 

[neeners]

Grayce. You're my hero. I'm wanting to try LS, but didn't want to deal with the crockpot, and now...seems like I don't really need one! thank you thank you thank you!!!!