just experimenting, interesting results

[grayceworks]

I recently read about someone making liquid soap using the CP method, rather than cooking it. I was intrigued, so I figured, I need to make a new batch of dishsoap anyhow, why not?

I decided to try with PKO instead of CO, also, just to compare against previous batches.

So, I used my usual 1% superfat that I use when doing LS.

454g PKO, melted
110g KOH
100g water
75g glycerin
25g alcohol-free natural coconut flavoring I found at whole foods in the spice aisle. Wanted to see if it sticks or not. Did, just barely. But won't be able to smell it once diluted, I don't think.

Mixed in the container until pudding-consistency, like heavy-trace in CP bar soap. Approximately 5 minutes.

Stopped mixing and watched in fascination as it instantly gelled in front of my eyes! It turned from creamy off-white to completely translucent in seconds. And got very VERY hot. It was already very warm, since I mixed the hot lye in with the hot oils. But this suddenly was too hot to touch the outside of the container!


I got out my thermometer and wanted to see just how hot it was, but could not insert it into the mix as it was suddenly rock-hard! From gel to rock-hard in less than a minute. In the following pic, you can see the dent where I tried to insert the candy thermometer.

I got out my meat thermometer and was able to use that, temp was over 250F.

I sat and stared for a about 5 minutes, wondering if I needed to do anything else other than let it do its thing. Then I cleaned up my tools and was rewarded with nice foamy lather. and my tools hadn't even been in with the stuff that gelled, so I was surprised the batter on them had saponified already. We're less than 10 minutes at this point from the time we dumped the lye-water-glycerin in with oils. I know using the 50-50 method speeds things up, but I'd never had it go THIS fast before. Wow.

So I took a tiny spoonful of the paste (that's the other little dent in the block of paste) and washed a couple dishes with it. Beautiful lather! And looks like it should be easy to dilute the paste also, as it dissolved readily in the water as I was washing. My hands are a bit dry now, due to the high-cleansing factor, but not as much as my usual CO version.

It's got what looks like ash forming on top as it is cooling. Almost completely cool now. Aside from that, it's a translucent gold color, and to all indications, is ready to dilute. 10-minute liquid soap. Crazy!

Completely zap-free, doesn't even taste very soapy -- quite bland.

Too tired to dilute the batch right now, but I'll update tomorrow or the next day when I do. I'm pretty happy with the results of my experiment so far!

 

[CaraBou]

That's impressive instant gratification -- now I'm intrigued too!

 

[Farm2Shower]

Liquid soap is next on my list. A lot goes into it, but I'm yearning for a kick but shower gel.

 

[Susie]

The folks who CP liquid soap mix to emulsion, then let the mixture/paste sit covered for 2 weeks before dilution. It will be really interesting to see if this works. If it does, it will be my new method. I am glad you were braver than me.

 

[grayceworks]

The folks who CP liquid soap mix to emulsion, then let the mixture/paste sit covered for 2 weeks before dilution. It will be really interesting to see if this works. If it does, it will be my new method. I am glad you were braver than me.

I really like the 50-50 glycerin method anyhow, it speeds up the cook time on the liquid soap when I HP it. Usually less than half-hour cook time till it's done and zap-free. I think the reasoning with letting CP sit a couple weeks before diluting is to let it finish saponifying...

I was surprised that it was zap-free in such a short period of time doing it CP. It literally gelled and then went straight to the final stage right before my eyes in seconds! I would not have believed it if I hadn't tested it. That's why I sat there staring at it. I was like, that's it?!?

And I did end up taking 25g of paste in 25g of water in a little jar to work with me tonight, and during a slow time, I sat there and stirred it up. Diluted fine without being heated.

Not totally clear, but that's likely a combination of the oil I used plus the SF % I used plus the coconut flavor stuff I used to scent it.

I marked SF as 1% in soap-calc, but I didn't remember to check beforehand whether my KOH was 90% or 99% so I didn't check the 90% box. And then when I was actually measuring it, I forgot to check again, so it is what it is. lol It's entirely possible I'm at a bit more than 1% SF. However it does appear to be clearing a bit, so it may end up being transparent after all, once I let it sit a couple weeks.

I don't mind if it doesn't clear up though, as I usually add a bit of shimmer to it anyhow.

Oh! Something I noticed as I was diluting this little bit -- the coconut scent is there, more than it is in the paste. Not a lot, and not quite as coconut-y as before soaping, but definitely there.

I might try that stuff in some other soaps and stuff. It's Frontier brand, alcohol-free, all natural flavors mixed in sunflower oil and with dried coconut in it. Smells wonderful. I love the smell of coconut and coconut oil.


I think I will try this experiment with a multi-oil soap and/or a slower-moving oil, and see what happens.

 

[Susie]

I don't really care if my soap is clear or not. I just don't like it when the fats rise to the top of the soap pump. So, I just bought one of those oil separating cups you use to make gravy with, and I will just cycle the soap through that and have one very moisturizing bottle.

I am fighting the urge to go try that method today, but I have almost a gallon of liquid soap made already. So, it is just going to have to go into my binder and wait.:-(

 

[neeners]

I've been wanting to try to find KOH since I've been thinking about trying a LS, but after reading this, I REALLY want to try to find KOH. wonder if it will work this fast with CO?

 

[grayceworks]

I've been wanting to try to find KOH since I've been thinking about trying a LS, but after reading this, I REALLY want to try to find KOH. wonder if it will work this fast with CO?

I got mine off of amazon, from Essential Depot. Which now that I read the description, is 90% pure, so my soap has a 10.9% lye discount. Which is why it is a bit cloudy, although not as cloudy today as last night. And not overly drying either. There's no oil rising to the top, which is good.

I would think CO would go about as fast...

 

[new12soap]

That is really interesting!

Just curious, tho, why did you use so little liquid (water + glycerin)? I was always under the impression that KOH should use 3x as much liquid for a 25% solution or so...?

Glad it worked for you, I may have to give this a try!

 

[DeeAnna]

"...KOH should use 3x as much liquid for a 25% solution or so..."

If one is doing HP, yes, I can see using a 25% lye solution. But Grayce was trying a CP method, and a 38% lye solution is within the realm of reason for CP.

For some reason I thought when I was first learning about soft and liquid soaps that KOH was less soluble in water than NaOH. Not sure why I thought that. It turns out that about 112 g KOH will dissolve in 100 g water at room temp. Only 109 g NaOH will dissolve in 100 g water at room temp. So a 33% or 40% or even 50% solution of KOH is do-able, just like NaOH.

 

[neeners]

I got mine off of amazon, from Essential Depot. Which now that I read the description, is 90% pure, so my soap has a 10.9% lye discount. Which is why it is a bit cloudy, although not as cloudy today as last night. And not overly drying either. There's no oil rising to the top, which is good.

I would think CO would go about as fast...

Thanks, but I live in the Caribbean....can't be shipping that stuff to here.....

 

[grayceworks]

Well, I'm happy to say that it diluted nicely, and made a nice clear golden liquid soap, with no oil floating even though it was done at almost 11%SF instead of 1%, due to me forgetting which KOH type I had. Additionally, there is the slightest hint of coconut scent from that natural coconut flavoring I was testing, so it didn't fade completely like I thought it would.

For approx 600g paste, I used approx 1000g - 1100g distilled water to dilute, before it stopped forming a skin on top. Some evaporated due to heating as I was diluting, but finished diluted weight ended up at 1600g when all was said and done.

(Initially the paste was 700g, but I set aside 100g of it for various experiments)

Lathers nicely, even at only 1 week, and is not as drying as the Coconut oil soap I made last time, probably due to the extra SF.

I expect the lather will improve further as it ages a couple more weeks. Just need to thicken this up a tad, and it along with my latest batch of laundry powder will be off to my friend's animal rescue -- they always need cleaning and laundry stuff!!!

----
BTW, Susie, did I read that you're a new moderator over on the yahoo group? Wonderful! I love to read over there for new ideas and tips.

 

[Tienne]

I haven't tried making liquid soap yet, but I do have some KOH ready for when I have the time and courage to try and this sounds like fun! Thanks for the recipe and the tutorial! Grayceworks, may I ask, what do you use to add shimmer?

 

[CaraBou]

I'm in the same ready-to-dive-but-still-floating boat that Tienne is in. So thanks for sharing your experience. My question is on superfatting. I thought SF levels were a lot lower in LS than CP (but I'm not really sure). What is a typical level? I would expect 11% in CP to inhibit the lather and possibly feel, well, oily. But for now anyway it seems like at least the lather may not be a problem for you. Are there any drawbacks for high SF in LS, or is it a matter of getting the consistency and clarity you want?

 

[Susie]

Thank you Gracey! I am excited to be able to help over there!

Superfat in LS is often a controversial subject. I have superfatted at as high as 7%(math error much like Gracey's), and the soap functioned fine. No oily feel whatsoever. It did have a big cloudy top to the soap(excess oils), but the bottom was fine. We used it all up. There was no noticeable difference in lather regardless of clarity.

I try to stick with 0-3% SF these days, as it just works better for me. 0% is for laundry, and 3% is for anything that touches my skin. I have yet to have to neutralize any of it since I started using the SBM calculator for liquid and cream soaps.(I use that one because I can use both NaOH and KOH, and I tend to use that a lot.) My pH is consistently between 8.5-10 depending on when I check it. If I check the paste while still cooking, it tends to be a bit higher. If I let it sit overnight, it tends to be lower. By the time I get done diluting, it hits around 8.5-9 consistently. As long as you use a reputable lye calculator, and make sure you put in the data correctly, you should have a good outcome.

 

[grayceworks]

I haven't tried making liquid soap yet, but I do have some KOH ready for when I have the time and courage to try and this sounds like fun! Thanks for the recipe and the tutorial! Grayceworks, may I ask, what do you use to add shimmer?

I used this merlot shimmer mica sample I got in with a supply order. I think from WSP? It was a sample pack of several shimmer micas and a couple lip-safe ones.

I didn't add any to this batch, since it's going to be just cleaning soap, not bath or hand soap. But it's tricky. I mixed it in with one batch while it cooked. Stayed suspended and shimmery all the way thru the cook. Was fine until I diluted it, then it all sank to the bottom. Hmm. I stirred it up, added the salt I was using for thickener, and then it all stayed suspended just fine, 3 months and counting...

BUT, when I was playing around with a bottle from that batch, by adding half of that and half from THIS PKO batch, the two soaps mixed fine, however it appears that salt will not thicken PKO, same as it won't thicken CO. lol.

And therefore when the PKO soap mixed with the shimmery soap, all the mica once again settled out since it got thinned out again.

Soooo... the soap has to be thickened enough to hold the mica in suspension if you use that. WSP sells a self-suspending pearlizer, but it has SLS and stuff in it.

I do have some crothix though (aka bubble-wash thickener at WSP), that I'm going to try with the PKO soap, and see if that works, since the salt doesn't.

I have to make it thick for dishsoap, otherwise everyone squirts wayyyyyy too much in! lol

I'm in the same ready-to-dive-but-still-floating boat that Tienne is in. So thanks for sharing your experience. My question is on superfatting. I thought SF levels were a lot lower in LS than CP (but I'm not really sure). What is a typical level? I would expect 11% in CP to inhibit the lather and possibly feel, well, oily. But for now anyway it seems like at least the lather may not be a problem for you. Are there any drawbacks for high SF in LS, or is it a matter of getting the consistency and clarity you want?

Yes, I normally don't go above 3% SF on my hand soaps and 0.5%-1% on my cleaning soaps. I was actually aiming for 1% on this, but didn't check the 90% KOH box on soapcalc. Whoops. BUT, I think due to the nature of the oil I used, and maybe the method? even after diluting, there's no free oil floating around, it lathers well, AND isn't as drying as I expected. I don't think it would be the same with every recipe though. I think with recipes that don't normally have a lot of lather to begin with, having excess SF might be an issue. Otherwise, yeah, it's a matter of clarity and cosmetics.

Superfat in LS is often a controversial subject. I have superfatted at as high as 7%(math error much like Gracey's), and the soap functioned fine. No oily feel whatsoever. It did have a big cloudy top to the soap(excess oils), but the bottom was fine. We used it all up. There was no noticeable difference in lather regardless of clarity.

I try to stick with 0-3% SF these days, as it just works better for me. 0% is for laundry, and 3% is for anything that touches my skin. I have yet to have to neutralize any of it since I started using the SBM calculator for liquid and cream soaps.(I use that one because I can use both NaOH and KOH, and I tend to use that a lot.)

I know they just recently decided to put some beginner's recipes over there with 3% SF so that they didn't have to worry about neutralizing their LS, since there would be no lye excess. Honestly, I've done it that way since my first batch, because well... mainly I was curious... and because I didn't have any borax... and when it worked fine, then I figured why change? It's easier anyhow, beginner or not, with less ingredients, less time and frustration, less math!!!

I like that calculator too, when I'm tweaking my shaving soap and creamy soap-scrub recipes, for the same reason.

 

[Tienne]

Oy, I see it's a little more complicated getting a shimmery soap than just adding something sparkly! LOL Thank you so much for the detailed explanations, Graceworks. It really helps me understand the woes and whys of LS making. Thank you!

 

[grayceworks]

Update: It's reproduceable.

Just tried again, this time with Coconut oil instead of PKO.
And the right amount of SF this time lol

Used
454g CO
128g water
110g glycerin
128g KOH (90% pure)
35g blend of lemon and litsea EO's.

This took a bit longer than the PKO to get moving, but once it started, everything went the same.

From start to finish-
From adding the lye-glycerin-water to the oil until stick-blended to a light almost pudding consistency - blending a few minutes, took a break to wash up some soaping equipment, then continued blending -- 10 minutes
Watched it turn orange and translucent jelly-like. Minor separation that stirred back together with a spatula. Got very hot. Too hot to touch sides of plastic container for any length of time. -- 2 minutes
From stirring back together until transparent thick sticky taffy stage while I was stirring-- less than a minute
From taffy stage to a hard chunk of transparent paste - approx 2 minutes.

Total: 15 minutes, no cooking other than what it did all by itself.

Tomorrow I'll dump it in the crock-pot with water and start diluting.

UPDATE ON PREVIOUS BATCH:
This was the one with almost 11% SF due to my calculation error. I left it settle for 2wks after dilution. During this time, a thin layer of whitish unsaponifiables settled to the bottom, and the soap became crystal clear. A very tiny amount of oil floated up, less than a tablespoon out of 1600g of diluted soap.

I tested a bit of it, good lather, and not at all drying, just very thin, which in my house, means it will get used 3x's as fast as it should LOL

Oh! I got a new toy, an electronic ph meter that I ordered to make my lotion-making easier, and I decided on a whim to check the ph of the diluted soap. Incidentally, my tap water is 5.2 on this meter. And my liquid PKO soap measured 8.7, which surprised me.

I decided to thicken with crothix after I got rid of the unsaponified stuff at the bottom. I also added lemon EO. No longer crystal clear, but looks like watery lemon custard. Close enough.

I am definitely happy with the results so far. Next up: mixed oils recipe.

 

[Susie]

*Mutters to self*"I have too much soap made already, I even have extra paste in the fridge. I DO NOT need to make soap. I WILL NOT make more soap until this is gone!"* #unhappySoaper.


Can you let me know about how much water it took to dilute?

 

[DeeAnna]

Um ... perks up ears ... a FB page with Susie as mod? Do tell which one it is, please? Curious minds wish to know....