It's a Dog eat Dog world out there!

[Saponificarian]

I am sure some of you that shop with 1617 would have received with an email that they closed shop abruptly yesterday. No fore warning, no notice. With the amount of time and money Valerie must have invested in the business, I don't believe she would make made that kind of decision without something catastrophic happening in her life, and abruptly too.

Within 24hours, I have seen over four candle companies asking for 1-2oz of FO to dupe her fragrances. It was a massive turn off for me. It brough to mind an image of vultures fighting over a wounded and bleeding animal. Quite disheartening. I know there are other small businesses relying on supplies from her for their business but common, it's been less than 24 hours people, where is your compassion and humanity? At least, take a few days to consider that by a twist of fate, that might have been your business.

I don't know Valerie. Never met her or engaged with her in anyway but she is a woman in business, a fellow small business owner like these vultures! I know it might sound a bit harsh because they are just trying to make money as well, but it could have been any of them. I hope they take a minute to consider that.

I know business has no feelings, but it is because we have been seared by capitalism so much that we are starting to behave like animals, rather than humans.

Thank you for letting me rant!

 

[cmzaha]

There is very little compassion today. Just like with my daughter and dealing with hospitals, they would just send her home to die without upfront money and oodles of it. No one cares today everything is money-driven.

 

[Saponificarian]

There is very little compassion today. Just like with my daughter and dealing with hospitals, they would just send her home to die without upfront money and oodles of it. No one cares today everything is money-driven.

I can’t even imagine what you must have gone through dealing with your daughter’s health issues and a health system that doesn’t care whether you live or die as long as they get paid.

 

[Ephemerella]

First, cmzaha, words don't exist to describe how sorry I am for your daughter, and I would be banned forever if I used the choice words I have for those hospitals. I pray for your daughter, you, and your family.

@Saponificarian I hear you, but I have a different perspective.

Cruising the interwebs, there is no shortage of 1617 customers lamenting about how they've paid for items not received and paid for memberships never to be redeemed. Not to mention the scores of equally small or smaller business owners who relied on 1617 products to pay their mortgages and put food on their tables.

1617 products represented about 15% of my line. I can live with that loss — it's a punch in the gut, but I can move on. Many many small business owners are not in that position, were much more heavily reliant, and now are facing the financial and time hardship of having to reformulate.

Whereas you might see formulators seeing an opportunity to cash in -- an opportunity to scoop up massive amounts of business does indeed exist for whoever gets to the finish line first -- I view it as formulators jumping in to help bail out struggling makers who just had their legs cut off.

Had 1617 been upfront, transparent, and at least tried to create a soft landing for makers, I might feel differently, but they didn't. For a company that only ran sales a few times a year, they were clearly dumping stock in the month of December. While I don't know what led to the sudden closure, I believe, by seeing the uncharacteristic sales actions of the company leading up to the closure, that somebody knew something — and from outward appearances — they chose to keep their customers in the dark until it was too late. Where is the compassion and humanity there?

How many small business people are currently gearing up for Spring launches and farmers' markets reopening? Now is the time when everyone is scrambling and preparing. I don't think formulators taking action in less than 24 hours is distasteful at all. I see it as necessary to keep the wheels of small businesses moving.

I really truly wish for the very best for the owner and the entire team. I really hope their challenges are surmountable and they can find a way to continue on, because its clear they put their hearts into their business, and of course anyone could find themselves in the same position, we are all vulnerable, no one is safe from the twists of life. But I would hope that, if and when possible, suppliers would do their level best to keep their customers informed so the people who rely on them don't feel blindsided.

Rant over. Wine time. : )

And @Saponificarian I respect and value your position, views, and am glad you opened this dialogue.

Edited to add, and entirely unnecessary to this discussion: As an equal opportunity animal lover, lets not forget vultures play a significant, purposeful and vital role in our beautiful world (I know the comment was meant as illustrative, but I always try to defend the not-so-cuddly critters )

 

[Saponificarian]

First, cmzaha, words don't exist to describe how sorry I am for your daughter, and I would be banned forever if I used the choice words I have for those hospitals. I pray for your daughter, you, and your family.

@Saponificarian I hear you, but I have a different perspective.

Cruising the interwebs, there is no shortage of 1617 customers lamenting about how they've paid for items not received and paid for memberships never to be redeemed. Not to mention the scores of equally small or smaller business owners who relied on 1617 products to pay their mortgages and put food on their tables.

1617 products represented about 15% of my line. I can live with that loss — it's a punch in the gut, but I can move on. Many many small business owners are not in that position, were much more heavily reliant, and now are facing the financial and time hardship of having to reformulate.

Whereas you might see formulators seeing an opportunity to cash in -- an opportunity to scoop up massive amounts of business does indeed exist for whoever gets to the finish line first -- I view it as formulators jumping in to help bail out struggling makers who just had their legs cut off.

Had 1617 been upfront, transparent, and at least tried to create a soft landing for makers, I might feel differently, but they didn't. For a company that only ran sales a few times a year, they were clearly dumping stock in the month of December. While I don't know what led to the sudden closure, I believe, by seeing the uncharacteristic sales actions of the company leading up to the closure, that somebody knew something — and from outward appearances — they chose to keep their customers in the dark until it was too late. Where is the compassion and humanity there?

How many small business people are currently gearing up for Spring launches and farmers' markets reopening? Now is the time when everyone is scrambling and preparing. I don't think formulators taking action in less than 24 hours is distasteful at all. I see it as necessary to keep the wheels of small businesses moving.

I really truly wish for the very best for the owner and the entire team. I really hope their challenges are surmountable and they can find a way to continue on, because its clear they put their hearts into their business, and of course anyone could find themselves in the same position, we are all vulnerable, no one is safe from the twists of life. But I would hope that, if and when possible, suppliers would do their level best to keep their customers informed so the people who rely on them don't feel blindsided.

Rant over. Wine time. : )

And @Saponificarian I respect and value your position, views, and am glad you opened this dialogue.

Edited to add, and entirely unnecessary to this discussion: As an equal opportunity animal lover, lets not forget vultures play a significant, purposeful and vital role in our beautiful world (I know the comment was meant as illustrative, but I always try to defend the not-so-cuddly critters )

I understand your point of view as a business owner. You have a business to run after all. However, I got several emails from 1617 in December notifying that they are moving warehouses, and they offered a lot of discounts on their inventory around this time, basically prompting makers to stock up. Proper business planning would have helped here.

I personally don't believe Valerie decided to close shop and screw other small businesses over abruptly, I chose to give her the benefit of doubt until I hear otherwise. Again, money has no feelings and there will be a thousand and one ways to justify both sides of this story, however, your post just drove home the point I am making, compassion be damned, it's all about the Benjamin's, baby!

Kris, at Scent Memory is the only business owner I read who expressed concern and wanted to reach out to Valerie to see if she might buy her codes. I have only ever bought samples from Kris, but she impressed the heck out of me by the class she displayed.


ETA: While I know vultures serve a purpose, you can't deny they have never been harbinger of goodwill or goodness.

 

[Ephemerella]

I didn't suggest malicious intent, just poor (very poor) business practice, perhaps avoidable, perhaps not. No judgement here, just voicing my take on the situation. It just so happens I stocked up, but December is a tough time for many small biz owners to hoard inventory (I on the other hand have NO problem hoarding FOs any time of year )

SM is first class all the way. Now, if SM were to disappear, I may have to shutter my doors. SM is amazing from every possible angle, no surprise at the level of class on display. Another person who clearly puts their heart into their work.

Again, I appreciate your side of the coin.

 

[Ephemerella]

ETA: While I know vultures serve a purpose, you can't deny they have never been harbinger of goodwill or goodness.

Actually, I do, as there are a multitude of cultural differences. Just some quick snippets from the randomness of the internet:

Nekhbet, in Egyptian religion, vulture goddess who was the protector of Upper Egypt and especially its rulers.

Vulture symbolism is an endless topic, but the main things they represent are death, rebirth, patience, and protection... One of the main things vultures symbolize is rebirth. They’re there to tell you that whatever is happening in your life is something you need to let go of. Release yourself to the winds of change and fly to new beginnings.

In addition to a wake of vultures being a symbol of God's judgment of shame, a gathering of vultures also indicates a diseased spiritual condition. In Revelation 18:2, Babylon the Great is described as being “a dwelling place of demons, a prison for every foul spirit, and a cage for every unclean and hated bird.”

Probably the first thing that comes to mind when we think of vultures is the fact that they are scavengers that feed on the carcasses of dead animals. This means we associate them with death, and vultures circling in the sky often tell you that an animal on the ground is in trouble and possibly dying. Most species of vultures can hardly be called handsome birds, but they soar high in the sky with undeniable grace as they scour the ground for food. Like most birds of prey, vultures have keen eyesight, but in addition, several species of vulture also have a powerful sense of smell, so vultures can be seen to represent perception. Since vultures don’t kill their own prey but rather wait until an animal dies or is killed by other predators, they often need to wait a long time for a meal, so they represent patience. Finally, since they eat whatever they can find, they can’t be fussy, and their habit of eating rotting, putrid flesh represents an ability to make do with what life throws their way.

Though vultures are not directly linked to God, they can still be seen as part of His creation and the natural order. Their presence in biblical narratives may provide an opportunity for reflection on different aspects of one’s life, such as spiritual purity, respect for authority, and the inevitability of judgment. In this sense, vultures can be seen as reminders of God’s presence and the importance of adhering to the principles outlined in the Bible.

In many cultures, vultures are associated with purification and cleansing. They have a unique ability to consume carrion and other decaying matter without becoming ill. This is a reminder that even the most unpleasant or difficult experiences can be transformed into something positive.

Thanks for this little rabbit hole! Sincerely! It was heartwarming to read the positivity associated with vultures, especially the biblical reminders to use every opportunity for self-reflection, which I think of as a paramount goodness for oneself.

 

[Nona'sFarm]

I have no idea why 1617 went out of business, so this is pure conjecture - the only time I've known businesses to be shut down so quickly is because of insolvency and the bank that they are indebted to forces shut down and sells off all assets as quickly as possible. May or may not be the case, this kind of closure often leaves a lot of people in the lurch. It is a shame for all involved. I don't know anything about fragrance copyrights or licensing, but it would seem that her fragrances would be protected and she could sell the formulas or license the production to another company. But if it was a forced foreclosure maybe the bank owns all that now, not sure how that works.

On the subject of vultures - I used to think they were awful, disgusting creatures. I once heard a short documentary on their role in curbing diseases because they ate carrion. My respect and admiration of them skyrocketed.

 

[Savage Daughter]

Vulture symbolism is an endless topic, but the main things they represent are death, rebirth, patience, and protection... One of the main things vultures symbolize is rebirth. They’re there to tell you that whatever is happening in your life is something you need to let go of. Release yourself to the winds of change and fly to new beginnings.

Yes ma'am When one door closes, another is opening

In addition to a wake of vultures being a symbol of God's judgment of shame, a gathering of vultures also indicates a diseased spiritual condition. In Revelation 18:2, Babylon the Great is described as being “a dwelling place of demons, a prison for every foul spirit, and a cage for every unclean and hated bird.”

No idea regarding the company you all are speaking of, but any 'god' which deems one of their own creations as 'hated' & 'unclean', or deems any being they create 'foul' or a 'sinner' worthy of punishment is no god at all....those are human constructs.

On the subject of vultures - I used to think they were awful, disgusting creatures. I once heard a short documentary on their role in curbing diseases because they ate carrion. My respect and admiration of them skyrocketed.

Give gratitude to the vultures, ravens and all other creatures who clean up this planet for us as we continue to destroy it. They are beautiful creatures with absolutely amazing wingspans. We have turkey vultures where I live & they are absolutely breathtaking, in flight & otherwise. They also show me where to find deer & other animal bones which I use in pieces I create.

Not to mention the fact that, if we end up destroying ourselves, the planet & the vultures will carry on without us, making a feast out of our ungrateful carcasses

 

[MelissaG]

Businesses don't close like that out of the blue unless something really big happened. Whatever it was it was something big.

That being said, I don't hold it against people trying to prepare for their own businesses. It's not because they don't care about someone else. We're all small businesses trying to make ends meet. It's not about vultures, it's their own survival. I'm glad I didn't have them as part of my line up, though. Losing one of my suppliers would hurt.

It's not a bad idea to get the scents duped.

 

[melinda48]

First, cmzaha, words don't exist to describe how sorry I am for your daughter, and I would be banned forever if I used the choice words I have for those hospitals. I pray for your daughter, you, and your family.

@Saponificarian I hear you, but I have a different perspective.

Cruising the interwebs, there is no shortage of 1617 customers lamenting about how they've paid for items not received and paid for memberships never to be redeemed. Not to mention the scores of equally small or smaller business owners who relied on 1617 products to pay their mortgages and put food on their tables.

1617 products represented about 15% of my line. I can live with that loss — it's a punch in the gut, but I can move on. Many many small business owners are not in that position, were much more heavily reliant, and now are facing the financial and time hardship of having to reformulate.

Whereas you might see formulators seeing an opportunity to cash in -- an opportunity to scoop up massive amounts of business does indeed exist for whoever gets to the finish line first -- I view it as formulators jumping in to help bail out struggling makers who just had their legs cut off.

Had 1617 been upfront, transparent, and at least tried to create a soft landing for makers, I might feel differently, but they didn't. For a company that only ran sales a few times a year, they were clearly dumping stock in the month of December. While I don't know what led to the sudden closure, I believe, by seeing the uncharacteristic sales actions of the company leading up to the closure, that somebody knew something — and from outward appearances — they chose to keep their customers in the dark until it was too late. Where is the compassion and humanity there?

How many small business people are currently gearing up for Spring launches and farmers' markets reopening? Now is the time when everyone is scrambling and preparing. I don't think formulators taking action in less than 24 hours is distasteful at all. I see it as necessary to keep the wheels of small businesses moving.

I really truly wish for the very best for the owner and the entire team. I really hope their challenges are surmountable and they can find a way to continue on, because its clear they put their hearts into their business, and of course anyone could find themselves in the same position, we are all vulnerable, no one is safe from the twists of life. But I would hope that, if and when possible, suppliers would do their level best to keep their customers informed so the people who rely on them don't feel blindsided.

Rant over. Wine time. : )

And @Saponificarian I respect and value your position, views, and am glad you opened this dialogue.

Edited to add, and entirely unnecessary to this discussion: As an equal opportunity animal lover, lets not forget vultures play a significant, purposeful and vital role in our beautiful world (I know the comment was meant as illustrative, but I always try to defend the not-so-cuddly critters )

I agree with your comment 100%. Thank you for sharing your insight.

 

[Jerseycity MG]

The "changing warehouses" sale sounds a lot like raising money before bankruptcy, other retailers do this.

They were a business that was inspiring to many of us and offered products with an upscale quality, everything looked really nice. They did, however, have high prices, I didn't use them because it would be unsustainable for my very small business.

I wish them the best of luck, they had a lot of good taste and added a lot of class to the home started candle making business.

"I'm a bird watcher and I love vultures. They are majestic and they play a critical role in our environment

 

[Gaisy59]

Yes ma'am When one door closes, another is opening



No idea regarding the company you all are speaking of, but any 'god' which deems one of their own creations as 'hated' & 'unclean', or deems any being they create 'foul' or a 'sinner' worthy of punishment is no god at all....those are human constructs.



Give gratitude to the vultures, ravens and all other creatures who clean up this planet for us as we continue to destroy it. They are beautiful creatures with absolutely amazing wingspans. We have turkey vultures where I live & they are absolutely breathtaking, in flight & otherwise. They also show me where to find deer & other animal bones which I use in pieces I create.

Not to mention the fact that, if we end up destroying ourselves, the planet & the vultures will carry on without us, making a feast out of our ungrateful carcasses

Hey there formerly QuaiQuadrant have you heard the song Savage Daughter by Alexandra de Anda? Love that song.

 

[melinda48]

I am sure some of you that shop with 1617 would have received with an email that they closed shop abruptly yesterday. No fore warning, no notice. With the amount of time and money Valerie must have invested in the business, I don't believe she would make made that kind of decision without something catastrophic happening in her life, and abruptly too.

Within 24hours, I have seen over four candle companies asking for 1-2oz of FO to dupe her fragrances. It was a massive turn off for me. It brough to mind an image of vultures fighting over a wounded and bleeding animal. Quite disheartening. I know there are other small businesses relying on supplies from her for their business but common, it's been less than 24 hours people, where is your compassion and humanity? At least, take a few days to consider that by a twist of fate, that might have been your business.

I don't know Valerie. Never met her or engaged with her in anyway but she is a woman in business, a fellow small business owner like these vultures! I know it might sound a bit harsh because they are just trying to make money as well, but it could have been any of them. I hope they take a minute to consider that.

I know business has no feelings, but it is because we have been seared by capitalism so much that we are starting to behave like animals, rather than humans.

Thank you for letting me rant!

I don’t see them as vultures in the least. They are companies hoping to provide customers with fragrances they will need now that 1619 had closed. I used a fragrance from Bramble Berry that they discontinued - I would have loved for another company to jump in and pick up that fragrance. I had to spend too much time and money to track down something that was close enough to work for me.

 

[lsg]

I am sure some of you that shop with 1617 would have received with an email that they closed shop abruptly yesterday. No fore warning, no notice. With the amount of time and money Valerie must have invested in the business, I don't believe she would make made that kind of decision without something catastrophic happening in her life, and abruptly too.

Within 24hours, I have seen over four candle companies asking for 1-2oz of FO to dupe her fragrances. It was a massive turn off for me. It brough to mind an image of vultures fighting over a wounded and bleeding animal. Quite disheartening. I know there are other small businesses relying on supplies from her for their business but common, it's been less than 24 hours people, where is your compassion and humanity? At least, take a few days to consider that by a twist of fate, that might have been your business.

I don't know Valerie. Never met her or engaged with her in anyway but she is a woman in business, a fellow small business owner like these vultures! I know it might sound a bit harsh because they are just trying to make money as well, but it could have been any of them. I hope they take a minute to consider that.

I know business has no feelings, but it is because we have been seared by capitalism so much that we are starting to behave like animals, rather than humans.

Thank you for letting me rant!

It has been dog-eat-dog since the beginning of commerce. I am sorry to hear of the demise of these small companies. The only thing I can do about such things is to try and use the companies that seem to have more ethical standards than ones who profit from companies who have failed.

 

[Ephemerella]

So just putting my money where my [fingers] are, here is a photo of yours truly a few years ago around Carlise, PA with a trooper rescuing a wounded vulture.

She was a juvenile turkey vulture, must have been eating by the side of the road when a speeding car hit her. Mr E and I were going along our way when I saw her flopping in the brush. Of course, I hit the brakes. Mr. E was nonplussed. First, he kissed the windshield, and then he knew what was coming next -- an all-day critter-saving affair.

The trooper was, well, a trooper, he stayed steadfast as I got my way up to her and covered her with a blanket. He brought thick gloves (I always travel with a pair myself) and a box to transport her in. We manged to get her safely and comfortably into the box and transported her to the local raptor vet.

Sadly she had two broken wings and a broken leg, so she was humanely euthanized. I wished for a better outcome but took comfort knowing she didn't spend the last day of her life flopping on the side of the road.

 

[Saponificarian]

Can we not spam or make this thread about vultures! I am glad you love vultures, but that is not what this thread is about, let’s keep on topic.

ETA: Thank you!

 

[Savage Daughter]

Hey there formerly QuaiQuadrant have you heard the song Savage Daughter by Alexandra de Anda? Love that song.

I can't remember who I first heard sing it. There are many women attributed to writing the song who actually only ever sang it after she put it out there....gawd what is her name again? I can see her in my mind but the name is escaping me....the video she recorded of herself singing it is really rough, her and a hand drum, no other instruments, very likely exactly as I would have done it. No fluff, no bull

So yes, I have heard the song, but not sure if we are thinking of the same person. I love the lyrics of the song. They are definitely me, except I don't curse the stones. I give gratitude to them I do cuss a lot in general, however Good for the soul!

 

[BritS]

I, for one, am grateful that other businesses cared enough to step in. Are they going to make money off an unfortunate situation? Yes. Are they saving my candle business, though? Also yes. #9 wax from 16/17 was the only wax I could really get to work with tricky oils from places like SM. I had just stocked up on 120 vessels and felt completely lost after I received that email. I view this more as companies are trying to keep other small businesses in running. I’m so grateful that Hive and Honey is going to carry at least some of the waxes, or I would have to spend so much more time and money testing candles again. That being said, I am probably going to start testing in a slow manner in the event that this happens again, but at least I’ll be able to still sell candles in the meantime instead of shutting it down.

 

[Gaisy59]

I can't remember who I first heard sing it. There are many women attributed to writing the song who actually only ever sang it after she put it out there....gawd what is her name again? I can see her in my mind but the name is escaping me....the video she recorded of herself singing it is really rough, her and a hand drum, no other instruments, very likely exactly as I would have done it. No fluff, no bull

So yes, I have heard the song, but not sure if we are thinking of the same person. I love the lyrics of the song. They are definitely me, except I don't curse the stones. I give gratitude to them I do cuss a lot in general, however Good for the soul!