Is it the Stick Blending Demon?

[Kittish]

Good to know, artemis. I use SoapCalc almost exclusively, though I will double check with Soapee sometimes if the results I get look odd or off to me (like when I first ran the numbers for the original iteration of the recipe posted here). I don't think I've ever even tried Bramble's calculator.

 

[artemis]

Good to know, artemis. I use SoapCalc almost exclusively, though I will double check with Soapee sometimes if the results I get look odd or off to me (like when I first ran the numbers for the original iteration of the recipe posted here). I don't think I've ever even tried Bramble's calculator.

Yes, but MissE said she's using BB, so I thought I should bring it up. It's a nice, simple, starter calculator.

 

[MissE]

Thanks, Kittish and artemis. Noted your suggestions, with gratitude.

 

[DeeAnna]

"...stick blender trying to force it just whipped it into a stiff batter floating in water..."

Yes, I know exactly what you mean. This type of recipe is probably best made with low intensity mixing, if a person is going to make it at all.

 

[Kittish]

Just to clarify for everyone, I have been making very small batches successfully with the volume measurement. I am not sure why that worked so well before now, but perhaps the recipe was calculated based on weights in the first place. Now, however, I wanted to make larger batches (hence I went out and got the stick blender) but I simply tried to change my recipe into weight, as I said earlier, using online calculators and doubtful estimates (like weight of solids from ml, weight of the oil vs. weight of water, from ml to kg) and then supersize that to make my larger batch.

So here is where the problem came in. When you scale a recipe, lye, water, and oil all scale at different rates. Just trying to apply a straight, across-the-board multiplier made your lye and water amounts wrong.

It's kind of like baking. With, say, a cake recipe, it seems intuitive that if you wanted to make a really BIG cake, all you'd need to do is multiply your recipe however many times. But that doesn't work. Things like eggs don't scale quite the same as the flour and butter do, and you wind up with too much egg in your cake.

Come to think of it, I've seen several times 'baker's ratios', that are for baking what our percentage based recipes and SAP values are for soap. It's really not all that different in methodology.

 

[MissE]

This is where the Bramble Berry calculator falls down, if you're using it through your browser. It won't go below 0% superfat (or, it didn't used to). If you paid for the app, that one will. If you are going to regularly play will lower SF, I recommend playing around with the soapee lye calculator where you will have a greater control over everything.

artemis, indeed, I was not able to use BB to calculate a "super-lye" hence my misadventures. I will certainly look into the other lye calculators you mentioned and come up with a suitable lye-concentration that I'm comfortable with.

Meanwhile, everyone, I did try to use my new stick blender for a normal recipe at 0% without any trouble, so it has to be the concentration of my recipe was the culprit.

Verdict: It was a lye-demon but it is now exorcised. :twisted:

Thanks for all your help!

 

[MissE]

So here is where the problem came in. When you scale a recipe, lye, water, and oil all scale at different rates. Just trying to apply a straight, across-the-board multiplier made your lye and water amounts wrong.

It's kind of like baking. With, say, a cake recipe, it seems intuitive that if you wanted to make a really BIG cake, all you'd need to do is multiply your recipe however many times. But that doesn't work. Things like eggs don't scale quite the same as the flour and butter do, and you wind up with too much egg in your cake.

Come to think of it, I've seen several times 'baker's ratios', that are for baking what our percentage based recipes and SAP values are for soap. It's really not all that different in methodology.

You are absolutely right, as I have learnt! Thanks for your help!!

 

[MissE]

There's an easy way to convert recipes from percentages to actual weight measures, and scale them up and down without introducing math errors. Starting from volume, the only conversion you need to do yourself is figure out what percent of the recipe a particular oil is. In this case, it's easy. PKO is 100% of your oils. Completely ignore water and lye measures for this, the calculator will work those out for you.

If you know how much your oil weight is, start by entering that as your batch size in your unit of measurement (I always use grams, it's just more accurate). If you're using mixed oils, or have a particular batch size in mind, then just enter the total weight you want to reach. This is for the oils only. If you're working purely with percentages, just select your weight unit and leave the total weight empty. We're ignoring lye and water for the moment.

Enter your oils by percentage.

Set your superfat (0% or maybe -1 or -2% for a laundry soap). Set your water ratio. I like to use 2:1 which gives a 33% lye concentration. 3:1 will give you a 25% lye concentration. Probably don't want to go much below that. If you don't know or care, it's ok to leave the default setting.

And now calculate. There are the measures you need to use for that batch of soap. If your 'recipe' says use different amounts of water or lye, trust the calculator and use the amounts it gave you instead.

25% extra lye.... oy. I certainly don't think I'd recommend using it as laundry soap, it'll tear your clothes up with that much excess lye and burn anyone who handles it.

I'd be hesitant to even zap test this recipe, and I'm a big advocate of zap testing. Wear gloves when handling, and use caution when testing! Or.. you could just go straight for the rebatch. Grate what you've got up as fine as you can and dump it into a big lye-safe pot that can be heated somehow. Add water to moisten and help the soap start melting. Then start adding oil in, a bit at a time and let it cook for a while. Test, and add more oil if it still zaps. Repeat until the soap doesn't zap when you test it.

Okay, time to rebatch the wicked lye soap...thanks again, Kittish! I was wondering what to add and how much: oil, water, fairy dust... ?

I'm so grateful!

 

[MissE]

Hello everyone, I'm here to ask your help again with this ruined batch of soap that started this thread. I would like someone to help me understand what exactly the extra oil does in a rebatch. Does it actually go and saponify the free lye in the soap? And if it does then, when I've 'cooked' the soap in the rebatch process, does the saponification take place during the 'cooking' like with HP or does it continue into the curing time?

Thanks!

 

[The Efficacious Gentleman]

If you're adding extra oils because the original is lye heavy, yes, those oils will saponify with the lye.

If you cook your new batter until it no longer zaps then saponification is finished. It will need to cure like a cp soap, maybe even longer if you add in more liquid. Otherwise it is likely to dissolve very quickly when used

 

[MissE]

Thanks, The Efficacious Gentleman, that was very clear. But does it mean that if I don't cook it then it will continue to saponify when I put it in the mold like CP soap?

 

[Kittish]

Thanks, The Efficacious Gentleman, that was very clear. But does it mean that if I don't cook it then it will continue to saponify when I put it in the mold like CP soap?

You need to cook it to dissolve the soap, so the oil you're adding to get TO the excess lye. It may take some extra water to get it to do so. If you don't get it melted, you'll wind up with pockets of lye all through the soap. Forcing the saponification along with heat means you can check to be sure you've added enough oil to neutralize all the extra lye. Can'd do that if you just mix extra oil in with the grated soap and stuff it into a mold.

 

[MissE]

Kittish, I actually wasn't thinking of just mixing oil into the grated soap. What I was trying to understand is what would happen if I melted down with (water and) heat and then mixed the oil into the hot batter and then don't 'cook' it further?

 

[Kittish]

Kittish, I actually wasn't thinking of just mixing oil into the grated soap. What I was trying to understand is what would happen if I melted down with (water and) heat and then mixed the oil into the hot batter and then don't 'cook' it further?

Ahh. Yes, the saponification will continue, but that doesn't make things really any easier on you because it will still need to be tested after it's saponified (in several days without cooking), and if you don't add enough oil the first time you're basically stuck with doing the whole process AGAIN. Or you add too much oil and have soap that will leave oil stains on your clothes. The cooking lets you add oil in increments, so you can add JUST enough to neutralize your extra lye without going much over that amount.

 

[MissE]

I think I got it!
Thanks, Kittish! :bunny: