Instantaneous Hardening!

[user 57977]

OK. No expert here, made tons of soap, this batch was coconut oil, jewel weed for poison ivy. Second time. First time a month ago was sodium lactate (never again for me) , now just less water to make a hard bar. First batch was OK, but too much foam. Or so I thought.
This batch the same, except the scents.

No measurements on the peppermint and clove, so maybe one ounce total of that, after trace, about to pour. No more.

PUDDING TO GRANITE. TIME ELAPSED: FIVE TO TEN SECONDS.

Hardened in five seconds, foamed up like it was sodium lactate (none was used this time), and was useless to pour, spatula into silicone soap bar molds or silicone loaf. Never had that happen before. Usually no scent, wasted my time trying, it never accelerated anything. I mean FAST! Rebatching now, pouring fine. it may have scent (at least house smells like it does).

So

1. Coconut oil with jewel weed juice
2. Lye water
3. Peppermint and clove oil

Instantly hardened.

Certain oils do this? Never seen it in several dozen batches over the years, only the scent is eaten up, so I keep waiting later and later and later at trace.

Re-batched it last night, un-molded today, hard, not so oily, slight hint of mint scent, not clover really.

Thanks in advance
Bobby Z.
Zucchini Acres

 

[lsg]

Clove oil can cause seizing in soap.
weird warning

 

[user 57977]

Wow, looked online and this is the only place I found that. Thanks. Not sure if that was considered hot or cold, but I put the jewel weed into the coconut oil after it was melted, kept it in a while and then strained it. The lye water was down to 150 degrees, oils at the same. I mean it siezed like a 350CC Corvette engine in a drag race with no oil. Wowl

 

[dibbles]

I agree that the Clove essential oil is the problem. The safe usage rate is also very low, so I hope you took that into consideration.

I use Sodium Lactate all the time and have never seen any foaming. You didn’t say how much of that you used either.

 

[Kari Howie]

Soaping at 150 for lye solution and oils is pretty hot. I know higher temps can increase the risk of volcano-ing and perhaps the fast saponification (seizure) process.

 

[DeeAnna]

This is perhaps not widely known, but it's no real secret either.

Kevin Dunn (author of Scientific Soapmaking) uses clove oil to accelerate trace when doing soap making experiments. He makes tiny batches, so an accelerant is helpful.

It's the eugenol content that's the culprit. Other EOs can accelerate trace -- thyme is one.

Be careful with clove EO in products for the skin.

 

[user 57977]

Soaping at 150 for lye solution and oils is pretty hot. I know higher temps can increase the risk of volcano-ing and perhaps the fast saponification (seizure) process.

Ok. Next time, Florida temperatures at most, 90s or so. That was crazy! Thanks.

 

[AliOop]

Sorry to hear about your clove oil experience. Most of us have run into that at one time or another. As Deeanna mentioned, clove and thyme will do this, and so will cinnamon, nutmeg, anise, and oregano. They all have eugenol in them so they will accelerate.

So please don’t keep blaming the sodium lactate. As we explained in your other thread, it doesn’t cause fast trace or foaming. Like this batch, you had several other things going on in your SL batch that caused the issues.

 

[DeeAnna]

Soaping at 150 for lye solution and oils is pretty hot. I know higher temps can increase the risk of volcano-ing and perhaps the fast saponification (seizure) process.

Yep! And this is a 100% coconut oil soap so your advice is even more true.

 

[TheGecko]

OK. No expert here, made tons of soap, this batch was coconut oil, jewel weed for poison ivy. Second time. First time a month ago was sodium lactate (never again for me) , now just less water to make a hard bar. First batch was OK, but too much foam. Or so I thought.
This batch the same, except the scents.

No measurements on the peppermint and clove, so maybe one ounce total of that, after trace, about to pour. No more.

PUDDING TO GRANITE. TIME ELAPSED: FIVE TO TEN SECONDS.

Hardened in five seconds, foamed up like it was sodium lactate (none was used this time), and was useless to pour, spatula into silicone soap bar molds or silicone loaf. Never had that happen before. Usually no scent, wasted my time trying, it never accelerated anything. I mean FAST! Rebatching now, pouring fine. it may have scent (at least house smells like it does).

Several things here.

1) Soap is a wash on/rinse on product that isn't on your skin for maybe five minutes. It will get you clean by carrying away dirt, germs and excess oils, but that's it...period.

2) See above, adding Jewel Weed to your soap to relieve the negative effects of Poison Ivy is a waste of time and money. And if you're advertising it as such, unless you are licensed and your soap has been tested and approved by the FDA as a 'drug'...it's illegal.

3) I've been using Sodium Lactate for years...it helps with unmolding. I've even used it in higher amounts because I was using intricate cavity molds and we had a lot of moisture in the air and never once has it ever 'foamed', nor has it ever caused seizing.

4) Spice and florals are notorious for seizing...doesn't matter whether it is Essential Oils or Fragrance Oils.

 

[Zany_in_CO]

TIP: Both Clove & Cinnamon are known "heaters" in soap and skin "sensitizers".
I make up a batch and store it in an amber brown glass bottle for later use.

Mix 1 part Clove Bud EO + 3 parts Cinnamon Bark EO then add 1 part of this to your blends.

75 ml Cinnamon Bark
25 ml Clove Bud
100 ml TOTAL (3.4 fl. oz.)

3 oz. Cinnamon Bark 85g
1 oz. Clove Bud 28g
4 oz. TOTAL 113g

 

[Kiti Williams]

OK. No expert here, made tons of soap, this batch was coconut oil, jewel weed for poison ivy. Second time. First time a month ago was sodium lactate (never again for me) , now just less water to make a hard bar. First batch was OK, but too much foam. Or so I thought.
This batch the same, except the scents.

No measurements on the peppermint and clove, so maybe one ounce total of that, after trace, about to pour. No more.

PUDDING TO GRANITE. TIME ELAPSED: FIVE TO TEN SECONDS.

Hardened in five seconds, foamed up like it was sodium lactate (none was used this time), and was useless to pour, spatula into silicone soap bar molds or silicone loaf. Never had that happen before. Usually no scent, wasted my time trying, it never accelerated anything. I mean FAST! Rebatching now, pouring fine. it may have scent (at least house smells like it does).

So

1. Coconut oil with jewel weed juice
2. Lye water
3. Peppermint and clove oil

Instantly hardened.

Certain oils do this? Never seen it in several dozen batches over the years, only the scent is eaten up, so I keep waiting later and later and later at trace.

Re-batched it last night, un-molded today, hard, not so oily, slight hint of mint scent, not clover really.

Thanks in advance
Bobby Z.
Zucchini Acres

FWIW, I use a plain old Fell's Natpha bar and use it like a lotion. I suds up a section of the bar soap and put it where the rash is and let dry. It clears up the rash in 2 to 3 days. I use this on spider bites as well.

 

[user 57977]

<< See above, adding Jewel Weed to your soap to relieve the negative effects of Poison Ivy is a waste of time and money. And if you're advertising it as such, unless you are licensed and your soap has been tested and approved by the FDA as a 'drug'...it's illegal.>>
I worked with an actual FeDstApo lawyer on labels, claims, newsletters and the on air speech of the radio program for two years in the 90s, so I know a lot more about their tactics than you do, so stop with the warnings. They are why we had two inch bank glass in a.......>>>>>>>>>NUTRITIONISTS' OFFICE. Because of what happened to Hans Napier.

1. That was not my question
2. I was making no claims, just asking a question
3. You should stick to subjects instead of trying to give legal advice.

 

[Kari Howie]

<< See above, adding Jewel Weed to your soap to relieve the negative effects of Poison Ivy is a waste of time and money. And if you're advertising it as such, unless you are licensed and your soap has been tested and approved by the FDA as a 'drug'...it's illegal.>>
I worked with an actual FeDstApo lawyer on labels, claims, newsletters and the on air speech of the radio program for two years in the 90s, so I know a lot more about their tactics than you do, so stop with the warnings. They are why we had two inch bank glass in a.......>>>>>>>>>NUTRITIONISTS' OFFICE. Because of what happened to Hans Napier.

1. That was not my question
2. I was making no claims, just asking a question
3. You should stick to subjects instead of trying to give legal advice.

Zuke, Gecko is not offering legal advice she made up out of thin air. There are well-known (in the soaping community) FDA requirements to which we must adhere in order for our products to be legally labeled as soap without crossing the line into drug. In her book “Navigating the Rules and Regs: A Practical Guide for Soap and Cosmetic Handcrafters”, Marie Gale states: “The regulations covering cosmetics and drugs are very different—the intended use of a product determines whether it is a cosmetic or a drug. Cosmetics are products intended to cleanse, beautify, or alter the appearance….However many cosmetics are in a form that could easily become a drug if the intended use is just slightly altered.”
She gives several examples, such as the intended use of “cleansing” versus “anti-bacterial”, which renders that product into a drug that would require regulation by the FDA. Another example would be the many folks who market their soap as a treatment for eczema. Again, such a claim makes that soap a drug that falls under the strict regulations of the FDA. So when you state that you are adding Jewel Weed to your soap for poison ivy, of course that’s going to raise a red flag, especially since you did not make it clear you weren’t making any medical claims and that you weren’t intending to sell. At any rate, I’m sure you could have found a more tactful way to respond to Gecko. We are supposed to support one another in this forum, not bite each other’s heads off over perceived slights.

 

[user 57977]

So you did not read what I wrote.

For the hard of seeing:

"I worked with an actual FeDstApo lawyer on labels, claims, newsletters and the on air speech of the radio program for two years in the 90s, so I know a lot more about their tactics than you do, so stop with the warnings. They are why we had two inch bank glass in a.......>>>>>>>>>NUTRITIONISTS' OFFICE. Because of what happened to Hans Napier."

"I worked with an actual FeDstApo lawyer on labels, claims, newsletters and the on air speech of the radio program for two years in the 90s,"

See that above?^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
I know the LAW! I asked a question, the question was chemical, not legal. I did not need legal advice, nor people making assumptions. No one asked for legal advice, and I was not "biting anyone's head off" PLEASE!
I know exactly how the FeDstApo works............personal experience with them. You do not manufacture nutritional supplements, make handout literature for patients, do monthly newsletters and write for a radio program still today on the air by not being cautious! You go to jail for saying ANYTHING they say you cannot say, "LEGALLY" Do you not see that? You simply did not read what I wrote or ignored it. Simple as that.
Reread what I wrote, please.

Then reread my original question about seizing, not about legal claims.

 

[cmzaha]

So you did not read what I wrote.

For the hard of seeing:

"I worked with an actual FeDstApo lawyer on labels, claims, newsletters and the on air speech of the radio program for two years in the 90s, so I know a lot more about their tactics than you do, so stop with the warnings. They are why we had two inch bank glass in a.......>>>>>>>>>NUTRITIONISTS' OFFICE. Because of what happened to Hans Napier."

"I worked with an actual FeDstApo lawyer on labels, claims, newsletters and the on air speech of the radio program for two years in the 90s,"

See that above?^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
I know the LAW! I asked a question, the question was chemical, not legal. I did not need legal advice, nor people making assumptions. No one asked for legal advice, and I was not "biting anyone's head off" PLEASE!
I know exactly how the FeDstApo works............personal experience with them. You do not manufacture nutritional supplements, make handout literature for patients, do monthly newsletters and write for a radio program still today on the air by not being cautious! You go to jail for saying ANYTHING they say you cannot say, "LEGALLY" Do you not see that? You simply did not read what I wrote or ignored it. Simple as that.
Reread what I wrote, please.

Then reread my original question about seizing, not about legal claims.

This is a soaping forum where we offer help and yes, sometimes we get off the original post. That happens. You were very rude to The Gecko, so you know the law very well, many do not and do advertise their soaps as doing more than just as an item to cleanse. If you want opinions in this forum you also need to accept that we veer off topic at times.

I will also add that you never know if you might be in this forum reading posts. At one time we actually had an FDA inspector in here and I do not remember if she ever mentioned that. She was not checking on soapmakers here she was actually here to learn soapmaking. She and I had several private conversations about lotion making and she gave me a wealth of information, which is how I learned how she was an actual FDA inspector. This is only the short version of how I learned about her job. So you really should keep your snippiness to yourself.

 

[NewlyCreative]

It’s difficult for me to understand what you are writing. Here when you say

“Hardened in five seconds, foamed up like it was sodium lactate (none was used this time)”

Do you mean firmed or foamed? Sodium lactate helps my soap firm up over the course of 8-12 hours but it has never caused my soap to “foam” up. Plus I don’t understand what foamy soap batter has to do with hard soap batter?

Clove is not an EO I’d want any where near skin that is blistering from poison ivy. Honestly I’d go with a different scent that does not irritate skin. Plus it sounds like you got bad acceleration from the clove oil.

I hear sodium lactate can help soap batter stay liquid so you might want to revisit the sodium lactate if you want to use scents that speed up trace!

As an aside you really should measure out your EOs especially skin irritating ones that you are making for soap to be used on skin exposed to poison Ivy!

 

[user 57977]

This is a soaping forum where we offer help and yes, sometimes we get off the original post. That happens. You were very rude to The Gecko, so you know the law very well, many do not and do advertise their soaps as doing more than just as an item to cleanse. If you want opinions in this forum you also need to accept that we veer off topic at times.

I will also add that you never know if you might be in this forum reading posts. At one time we actually had an FDA inspector in here and I do not remember if she ever mentioned that. She was not checking on soapmakers here she was actually here to learn soapmaking. She and I had several private conversations about lotion making and she gave me a wealth of information, which is how I learned how she was an actual FDA inspector. This is only the short version of how I learned about her job. So you really should keep your snippiness to yourself.

 

[user 57977]

<<

This is a soaping forum where we offer help and yes, sometimes we get off the original post. That happens. You were very rude to The Gecko, so you know the law very well, many do not and do advertise their soaps as doing more than just as an item to cleanse. If you want opinions in this forum you also need to accept that we veer off topic at times.

I will also add that you never know if you might be in this forum reading posts. At one time we actually had an FDA inspector in here and I do not remember if she ever mentioned that. She was not checking on soapmakers here she was actually here to learn soapmaking. She and I had several private conversations about lotion making and she gave me a wealth of information, which is how I learned how she was an actual FDA inspector. This is only the short version of how I learned about her job. So you really should keep your snippiness to yourself.

>>
If it were just a place to get answers on soapmaking ,there would have been no need to give me the law. The question was not related to that. Unsolicited legal advice is R-U-D-E.
FeDstApo investigators are also "Nutritionist Office patients" and "Soap makers" who are undercover. Dealt with that also. It is not snippy to tell someone they did not answer the actual question, I already knew that information and was not talking about that. Did you admonish them?

"See above, adding Jewel Weed to your soap to relieve the negative effects of Poison Ivy is a waste of time and money. And if you're advertising it as such, unless you are licensed and your soap has been tested and approved by the FDA as a 'drug'...it's illegal."

 

[Michelle0803]

Can you provide your actual recipe with exact measurements? It will be easier to diagnose what may have cause your issues

Did you run your new recipe with less water through a soap calculator or just discount your water?

How much clove did you use? Without your recipe it is impossible for us to know if it was too much and caused your issues.

As others have stated Clove is an accelerant that will cause your soap to seize.

Do not be rude to people offering help, it's not a good look and is a sure-fire way not to get help in the future. No one wants to be attacked for being helpful. You are relatively new here and we don't know your experience or knowledge. Anytime anyone talks about additives that have a medicinal claim we offer education and warnings about the FDA. The knowledge and experience on this site is amazing, you don't need to be rude to anyone if you disagree or don't like the advice.