Inidigo in hot process

[psfred]

I've gotten a wild hair to play with color in soaps since my red palm oil worked out nicely -- 5% gives me a solid dark yellow, so I can use less and get a variety of yellows.

I'd like to stick with natural colorants at the moment, so decided I could get some indigo powder and get a range of blues and greens in conjunction with the red palm oil.

Problem is that I can't find much information on hot process, which I prefer. Anyone used indigo in hot process, and are there any tricks for getting clean blue rather than teal?

I'm thinking soaking the powder in a small amount of lye, filtering out the residue, and adding it to the rest of the lye before I add to the oils. Unless I get the pre-reduced crystals from Dharma, in which case I think I'd probably dissolve them and add them after the cook along with FO and extra water, etc.

There is a limit to how much soap I'd like to have pile up, so any pointers to help me avoid too many experiments would be welcome.

 

[Kittish]

Filtering the powder out of your lye water doesn't yield very good results (or at least it didn't for me). I tried that with my second batch (which, come to think of it, was hot process, sort of- I was trying to make MP soap from scratch). The soap went through a variety of green shades, ending at kind of an icky yellowish pea green after less than two months. Right now I've got some indigo infusing in oil, that should give better results. The oil itself is a gorgeous kind of blue-purple until I shake up the jar and it goes dark navy with the powder mixed back in.

 

[SunRiseArts]

I used to do HP exclusively until I came to this forum. Personally I have not used natural colorants, but I have used micas, and is just like CP. You just have to work quickly, unless you are doing one color.

I have used water based colors in HP with lots of success. Yes, the ones from the craft stores. However, only if you use one color, because they would bleed into each other, but you can create very interesting effects with it. As long as you use them after your soap is made.

If you add a little red (and I mean a little) to your indigo, it will probably stick better. Also colors stick better in HP than CP.

 

[Nao]

From what I've seen it seems hard go get a good color from indigo, it will morph or fade, woad apparently works better if you cqn get your hands on some.

 

[Kittish]

Woad is hard to find and expensive in the U.S., if that's where the OP is. I went looking for it when I still harbored the notion of using all natural colorants in my soaps.

 

[ibct1969]

I used it to try an ombre soap from here http://www.humblebeeandme.com/winter-wonderland-christmas-soap/ and I failed miserably, not because of the indigo, but because I have math issues. I ended up throwing the batch into the crock pot. I did add some blue mica to it after it started to heat up because it was turning gray - maybe a quarter to half teaspoon or so to a 50 ounce batch. It came out sky blue. Hard to know if it was the indigo or the mica that turned it that color. Probably the mica...

I got a big kick out of this experiment http://www.greatcakessoapworks.com/...e-indigo-to-color-cold-process-soap/#comments and this https://kapiamera.blog/2015/12/17/sweet-heart-soap/ I tried Holly's method and my soap turned light lavender colored.

I recently tried another indigo soap by just mixing the indigo powder with olive oil (vs diffusing it) and adding it at trace; that soap is SO dreary dark gray that I named it Deadliest Catch b/c it looks like the Bering Sea in January... I wouldn't recommend that method unless you plan on a gray soap. I would say infuse it a few hours or overnight, and use that to color your soap.

 

[earlene]

I used it to try an ombre soap from here http://www.humblebeeandme.com/winter-wonderland-christmas-soap/ and I failed miserably, not because of the indigo, but because I have math issues. I ended up throwing the batch into the crock pot. I did add some blue mica to it after it started to heat up because it was turning gray - maybe a quarter to half teaspoon or so to a 50 ounce batch. It came out sky blue. Hard to know if it was the indigo or the mica that turned it that color. Probably the mica...

I got a big kick out of this experiment http://www.greatcakessoapworks.com/...e-indigo-to-color-cold-process-soap/#comments and this https://kapiamera.blog/2015/12/17/sweet-heart-soap/ I tried Holly's method and my soap turned light lavender colored.

I recently tried another indigo soap by just mixing the indigo powder with olive oil (vs diffusing it) and adding it at trace; that soap is SO dreary dark gray that I named it Deadliest Catch b/c it looks like the Bering Sea in January... I wouldn't recommend that method unless you plan on a gray soap. I would say infuse it a few hours or overnight, and use that to color your soap.

Wow, that is so cool. I have to try that method. I'd love to come up with something other than chambray-blue-grey with indigo. Thank you for posting the link to Holly's blog.

 

[penelopejane]

Can you use indigo in soap?

CORRECTED
It depends on the mordants (chemicals) used to extract the indigo. There is a traditional natural process using ash and water.

Synthetic indigo has chemicals that may not be safe to use on skin.

http://source.ethicalfashionforum.com/article/natural-vs-synthetic-indigo-dyes

 

[earlene]

Can you use indigo in soap? It's a known carcenagen for people who dye fabric.

Are you sure about that? Do you have any links to studies that show indigo is a cardinognic substance? Natural or synthetic indigo?

I have not yet found any, but did find this from 1987:

http://articles.latimes.com/1987-06-28/books/bk-267_1_indigo-dye-uniforms

And this from 2004 which mentions both natural & synthetic indigo, some eye irritation, but no conclusions regarding carcinogenicity:

http://ec.europa.eu/health/ph_risk/committees/sccp/documents/out263_en.pdf

However, naphthalene, which may be used in preparation of indigo (and of salicylic acid, BTW), is carcinogenic in rats:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11725561

 

[ibct1969]

Holly's pink indigo

Wow, that is so cool. I have to try that method. I'd love to come up with something other than chambray-blue-grey with indigo. Thank you for posting the link to Holly's blog.

You're welcome. I love her soaps! Especially the ombre gradient one she did with the indigo.

Here's the link to the pics of that lavender soap I did. http://www.soapmakingforum.com/showthread.php?t=64158

 

[penelopejane]

Are you sure about that? Do you have any links to studies that show indigo is a cardinognic substance? Natural or synthetic indigo?

I have not yet found any, but did find this from 1987:

http://articles.latimes.com/1987-06-28/books/bk-267_1_indigo-dye-uniforms

And this from 2004 which mentions both natural & synthetic indigo, some eye irritation, but no conclusions regarding carcinogenicity:

http://ec.europa.eu/health/ph_risk/committees/sccp/documents/out263_en.pdf

However, naphthalene, which may be used in preparation of indigo (and of salicylic acid, BTW), is carcinogenic in rats:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11725561

No I am not sure. I should have put that as a question. Natural indigo traditionally extracted has been used for thousands of years.

This says I think that Indigo effects gene expression:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aryl_hydrocarbon_receptor

I think it's the mordants (chemicals used to extract the dye) that are the problem
http://www.popsci.com.au/science/the-problem-with-indigo,380335

If your indigo powder is green it may not be real indigo and the synthetic indigo is a problem because of the chemicals used.
https://www.quora.com/Is-indigo-powder-a-safe-hair-dye

I have been too unsure of its safety to buy any.

 

[SunRiseArts]

I used it to try an ombre soap from here http://www.humblebeeandme.com/winter-wonderland-christmas-soap/ and I failed miserably, not because of the indigo, but because I have math issues. I ended up throwing the batch into the crock pot. I did add some blue mica to it after it started to heat up because it was turning gray - maybe a quarter to half teaspoon or so to a 50 ounce batch. It came out sky blue. Hard to know if it was the indigo or the mica that turned it that color. Probably the mica...

I got a big kick out of this experiment http://www.greatcakessoapworks.com/...e-indigo-to-color-cold-process-soap/#comments and this https://kapiamera.blog/2015/12/17/sweet-heart-soap/ I tried Holly's method and my soap turned light lavender colored.

I recently tried another indigo soap by just mixing the indigo powder with olive oil (vs diffusing it) and adding it at trace; that soap is SO dreary dark gray that I named it Deadliest Catch b/c it looks like the Bering Sea in January... I wouldn't recommend that method unless you plan on a gray soap. I would say infuse it a few hours or overnight, and use that to color your soap.

Pictures please?

 

[ibct1969]

Pictures please?

I don' have any of the indigo HP batch. I wasn't taking pictures of my soap back then... and I donated it long ago. I'd say it was almost the same the color of the Shark 'smile' on this forum though...:shark:

There are pictures of the lavender soap and the transformation of the indigo in the second thread though.

Edited to include Deadliest Catch.

 

[Zany_in_CO]

I'd like to stick with natural colorants at the moment, so decided I could get some indigo powder... Anyone used indigo in hot process, and are there any tricks for getting clean blue rather than teal? ...I'm thinking soaking the powder in a small amount of lye, filtering out the residue, and adding it to the rest of the lye before I add to the oils. Unless I get the pre-reduced crystals from Dharma, in which case I think I'd probably dissolve them and add them after the cook along with FO and extra water, etc.

I'm revisiting using natural colorants at the moment. I haven't tried indigo yet, but I found some info in my files that may be helpful. One source suggested using the pre-reduced indigo is the best option for soap. After reading the following, I also believe that hot-process would be a good way to go... for one thing, it insures that the soap gels.

...soaking it in your sodium hydroxide solution will NOT reduce the tendency for blue bubbles if you use too much. It will actually increase it, lol! The hot lye solution is what allows you to use such a small amount. The same thing goes with adding clay or other botanicals to your hot sodium hydroxide solutions, the hot solution extracts more of the natural colors from the botanicals, letting you use less (and saving money).

An example: for a 5 lb batch of base oils you may be mixing up about 30 oz of water/sodium hydroxide solution. If you want to add Australian Red reef clay directly to your soap, you would need a few teaspoons minimum. If you add the clay directly to your hot lye solution, please do NOT add more than 1/2 teaspoon, 1/4 teaspoon is actually best! You will still have VERY VERY red soap. The hot lye solution lets the minerals in the clay disperse in the hot water better than the mixture of soap does, as the water is already 'tied up'.
Source: Kelly Bloom, Owner, List Mom, "Southern Soapers Fragrances & Supplies"