415 is a very poor alternate to palm stearic acid. what you want is fully hydrogenated soy wax which is 87% stearic acid and 11% palmitic acid. If you want an alternative to palm oil then tallow, cocoa, koku, and illipe, and lard will be very close. 415 has a fatty acid profile similar to shea butter and will act very similar to softer nut butters.
Hydrogenated soy
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415 is a very poor alternate to palm stearic acid. what you want is fully hydrogenated soy wax which is 87% stearic acid and 11% palmitic acid. If you want an alternative to palm oil then tallow, cocoa, koku, and illipe, and lard will be very close. 415 has a fatty acid profile similar to shea butter and will act very similar to softer nut butters.
I don’t think it is a poor alternative. I use it at 20% and it creates a nice firm bar. Similar to cocoa butter yes, but a fraction of the cost. If cocoa butter was cheap, I’d use it, but it’s not. I can buy a whole kilo of SW here for the same price as about 250g if cocoa butter.
Dawni
Well-Known Member
I know this isn't what you asked.. But in case finding the pure 415 is difficult for you, like it is for me, @Steve85569 has tried the 444 (98% soy, 2% soy based additive) in soap and doesn't see so much of a difference in the output compared to 415 so I'm trying the 444 also (hopefully) today.
Problem is I've tried and can find nowhere that says what that additive is so I'm not really sure what it probably does in soap but I'm banking on the fact that it's only 2% n shouldn't be an issue (I hope).
But if you have access to the 100% pure kind, go for it and let us know how it goes
There's a thread called soy wax users if you feel like reading.
Problem is I've tried and can find nowhere that says what that additive is so I'm not really sure what it probably does in soap but I'm banking on the fact that it's only 2% n shouldn't be an issue (I hope).
But if you have access to the 100% pure kind, go for it and let us know how it goes
There's a thread called soy wax users if you feel like reading.
penelopejane
Well-Known Member
Kiwimoose,
I think what Andrew is trying to say is that if someone is trying to substitute something for palm oil in their soap they should be looking for something of the equivalent or better stearic acid and palmitic acid profile.
Palm oil has 44% palmitic acid and 5% stearic acid
Fully hydrogenated soy has 11% palmitic acid and 87% stearic acid.
415 soy wax has 9% palmitic and 15% stearic acid if it is 27% partially hydrogenated.
Stearic acid has 99% stearic acid.
Cocoa butter has 28% palmitic and 33% stearic.
Cocoa butter looks great on paper but it is very expensive here, too.
Stearic acid is very cheap and doesn't take much to change your soap profile but you still need basic oils in your recipe.
So 20% 415 soy wax in a recipe is cheap way to make a hard soap (if it is cheaper than oils) but it will not be as hard as palm oil or fully hydrogenated soy wax.
Here is a 100% hydrogenated soy wax you may be able to get:
https://allseasonswaxcompany.com.au/pure-soy-s100
In NZ it is available here:
https://www.candlecreations.co.nz/
But, in my opinion there are a lot of other things to consider in soap than just hardness.
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Oh I see. Well for me - I'm not using palm nor animal fats, so it's pretty much my only hardness factor apart from the butters which are too expensive to use in large amounts.
Thanks so much for the other link @penelopejane - KiwiSoap has just messaged me with great enthusiasm - not sure how we missed that ( unless it's new?). Will order it next time to try it out. The melt point is 52 degrees, whereas the 415 is 49-52 degrees. I guess it shouldn't make too much difference.
Thanks so much for the other link @penelopejane - KiwiSoap has just messaged me with great enthusiasm - not sure how we missed that ( unless it's new?). Will order it next time to try it out. The melt point is 52 degrees, whereas the 415 is 49-52 degrees. I guess it shouldn't make too much difference.
penelopejane
Well-Known Member
I only just found it. I thought I had posted it somewhere but maybe not.
It's going to congeal at 34*C so you may have to soap a little warmer if you generally soap at room temp.
They also have a beeswax and soy mix.
I know I say this all the time but OO could also be considered a hard oil. The soap calcs don't recognise it as such because it takes time to harden but it does harden.
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Yes - I include OO at 20% in all my recipes. It also helps to slow trace, which I like because it offsets my other fast moving oils.I only just found it. I thought I had posted it somewhere but maybe not.
It's going to congeal at 34*C so you may have to soap a little warmer if you generally soap at room temp.
They also have a beeswax and soy mix.
I know I say this all the time but OO could also be considered a hard oil. The soap calcs don't recognise it as such because it takes time to harden but it does harden.
KiwiSoap
Well-Known Member
Thanks for sharing this PenelopeJane, I swear I'd checked before but not seen that (I'll blame it on their search which is a little funky, though I was probably not looking for the right thing
). GW415 has served well so far, but this gives rise to more experiments to try.
Actually - I think we did look at this a while back, but I was put off by the higher pour temp - about 10 degrees higher than GW415. This means I would have to soap a lot hotter than I do ( I think). The GW415 does not state its congealing temp.
Golden brands has never, and will not share the fatty acid break down of their products. 415 is also not 27% hydrogenated. It is somewhere between 30 and 35%. Although 27% is the closest approximation in the lye calculator, it will be of by a bit. The sap value for all the soys is the same (192) so there is no issue with how much lye to put in.
The cheapest hardening agents I can think of are fully hydrogenated soy, fully hydrogenated castor, and beeswax.
penelopejane
Well-Known Member
Thanks for the more accurate info.
Stearic acid is pretty cheap.
Beeswax is even more expensive than cocoa butter here and you only use a fraction of the amount. Let’s hope the soy I listed above works well.
It is a "soy based additive" according to what I have been able to find. That's why I was willing to try it.
Since it is 2% they are not required to state what it is exactly and can claim some sort of proprietal need for secrecy.
the additive is monoglycerides.
Monoglycerides are a form of fatty acid, along with triglycerides and diglycerides. Monoglycerides occur naturally in some foods and are added to others to improve texture, quality, and shelf life.
Dawni, see this link: https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/agricultural-and-biological-sciences/monoglyceride
Notice that "Monoglycerides are dispersible in water only in the presence of co-emulsifiers (sodium salts of fatty acids)." Therefore, I don't see that it would do anything to soap other than disperse, since soap is, by definition, salts of fatty acids. Although thatarticle author (excerpt from a book) does go on to say that distilled monoglycerides are useful for aeration in some situations, so maybe it would add some volume to the soap. Although at only 2%, I don't think it would do anything noticeable.
Notice that "Monoglycerides are dispersible in water only in the presence of co-emulsifiers (sodium salts of fatty acids)." Therefore, I don't see that it would do anything to soap other than disperse, since soap is, by definition, salts of fatty acids. Although that
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Lin19687
Well-Known Member
Before you buy a big quantity you might want to do some testers. Some don't like Sow or a 'wax' in soap.
Would hate to see you buy a huge amount only to find out you don't like the feel Wax gives.
Would hate to see you buy a huge amount only to find out you don't like the feel Wax gives.
