I've opened a thread on Humblebee & Me Sulfate-Free Shampoo Bar with Rice Starch because there seems to be a lot of interest about this recipe. I hope this is in the right place. I also wonder if there's a way to move over the posts abut this recipe from the "What Bath & Body . . . " thread so we don't lose any information.
Humblebee & Me Shampoo Bar with Rice Starch
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I'm tagging @Quilter99755 @JoyfulSudz and @Servant4Christ so you know I'm responding over here.
I used this bar for this first time this morning. It's been two weeks since I made it. I just cut my hair short - think: Chris Jenner
- and my hair is straight and of medium-minus thickness. I swiped the bar over my hair, from from forehead to the nape of my neck, a few times. Then I put the bar down and started massaging in the shampoo. I had LOADS of suds! I would even do a swipe or two less next time. I think this shampoo was easier to rinse out of my hair than commercial shampoo. After my shower, my hair and scalp felt clean, and my scalp was not irritated at all.
I thought that to do a pure experiment, I shouldn't use any conditioner or put anything in my hair after my shower. But my hair was so fluffy (a good thing, I guess) that I capitulated and rubbed a few drops of argan oil in it (a tip I found here at SMF).
I just want to note again here that I added kaolin clay (4 tsp for each 100g bar) to harden my shampoo bars, so that might have an effect on the outcome in the shower. If I decide to make this bar again, I'll weigh the clay instead of using volume measurement, so I can get an idea of the % I used compared to Humblebee's other shampoo bars with clay. I also substituted the camellia seed oil in the recipe for argan oil because I don't have camellia seed oil and I've really been loving argan oil for my hair.
I used this bar for this first time this morning. It's been two weeks since I made it. I just cut my hair short - think: Chris Jenner
- and my hair is straight and of medium-minus thickness. I swiped the bar over my hair, from from forehead to the nape of my neck, a few times. Then I put the bar down and started massaging in the shampoo. I had LOADS of suds! I would even do a swipe or two less next time. I think this shampoo was easier to rinse out of my hair than commercial shampoo. After my shower, my hair and scalp felt clean, and my scalp was not irritated at all.I thought that to do a pure experiment, I shouldn't use any conditioner or put anything in my hair after my shower. But my hair was so fluffy (a good thing, I guess) that I capitulated and rubbed a few drops of argan oil in it (a tip I found here at SMF).
I just want to note again here that I added kaolin clay (4 tsp for each 100g bar) to harden my shampoo bars, so that might have an effect on the outcome in the shower. If I decide to make this bar again, I'll weigh the clay instead of using volume measurement, so I can get an idea of the % I used compared to Humblebee's other shampoo bars with clay. I also substituted the camellia seed oil in the recipe for argan oil because I don't have camellia seed oil and I've really been loving argan oil for my hair.
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For anyone new, I'll let you know why I am here. Three years ago, my daughter had an acoustic neuroma and had brain surgery to remove it. She it deaf in the ear where the neuroma was located and has a cochlear implant in her skull. She got several irritations in the area around the implant that did not affect the implant itself but the doctor said it could lead to an infection. His thoughts were that it was probably topical...meaning soap or shampoo. Hence, I have been looking at syndet bars to find one that does not irritate.
My hair is pretty much impervious to anything I put on it, however, it does not like shampoos with sulfates (itchy, flakey scalp) It is short, very fine and curly. My daughter has kept her hair almost shave short as it has been easier to deal with any of the irritations on her implant. Her hair is much coarser than mine, but wavy. Prior to getting the implant, she could use anything on her hair, too.
We have found a couple of recipes for syndets that she can use, but pressing them into the little moon cake presses is a nasty chore. So we are looking for something easier and thought a pourable recipe would be great. I bought DIY pourable bars booklet, but needed to get different ingredients, so in the meantime I tried this rice bar from Humblebee and Me.
I made it and it did not come out like in the video...it was way moister...so since my gloves were filled with gooey formula on them the only thing I had within reach was more rice flour. I tossed in a couple of teaspoons to see if it would stiffen up the batch enough to mold my bars. It did and dried within a couple of days but had an odd texture to the outside of the bar...almost gritty. However, on Thursday I used it in the shower. At first the bar itself felt slimy but then I'm used to putting all my syndet bars into small organza bags and using them that way. It felt like the suds were ample but without glasses I couldn't really tell. It rinsed clean very easily and felt great. After my hair dried I felt like it had more body that it usually does.
This morning I did a hand test (glasses on) at the sink with the bar in the bag. I wet the bar/bag, rolled it between my palms a couple of times and got wonderful lather, almost instantly. As I rubbed my hands together, it actally got better. And it took very little water to rinse clean. No powdery after feel or dryness. Then took a shower and washed my hair. Wet the bar/bag, swiped over my hair, over front and over crown, then worked into a lather. Rinse fine and felt clean. Again, now that it is dry, it feels like I have more body in my hair than normally.
If the more body feeling continues, I will probably make another batch of this recipe. I thought I probably made a mistake in the directions since it did not come out the same as hers did. But if I didn't make a mistake, it is very possible that I might be able to at least plop the gooey mess into some molds. It will be a while before I get time or need to make another batch...too many projects coming up with deadlines. But I will come back to this to report.
My hair is pretty much impervious to anything I put on it, however, it does not like shampoos with sulfates (itchy, flakey scalp) It is short, very fine and curly. My daughter has kept her hair almost shave short as it has been easier to deal with any of the irritations on her implant. Her hair is much coarser than mine, but wavy. Prior to getting the implant, she could use anything on her hair, too.
We have found a couple of recipes for syndets that she can use, but pressing them into the little moon cake presses is a nasty chore. So we are looking for something easier and thought a pourable recipe would be great. I bought DIY pourable bars booklet, but needed to get different ingredients, so in the meantime I tried this rice bar from Humblebee and Me.
I made it and it did not come out like in the video...it was way moister...so since my gloves were filled with gooey formula on them the only thing I had within reach was more rice flour. I tossed in a couple of teaspoons to see if it would stiffen up the batch enough to mold my bars. It did and dried within a couple of days but had an odd texture to the outside of the bar...almost gritty. However, on Thursday I used it in the shower. At first the bar itself felt slimy but then I'm used to putting all my syndet bars into small organza bags and using them that way. It felt like the suds were ample but without glasses I couldn't really tell. It rinsed clean very easily and felt great. After my hair dried I felt like it had more body that it usually does.
This morning I did a hand test (glasses on) at the sink with the bar in the bag. I wet the bar/bag, rolled it between my palms a couple of times and got wonderful lather, almost instantly. As I rubbed my hands together, it actally got better. And it took very little water to rinse clean. No powdery after feel or dryness. Then took a shower and washed my hair. Wet the bar/bag, swiped over my hair, over front and over crown, then worked into a lather. Rinse fine and felt clean. Again, now that it is dry, it feels like I have more body in my hair than normally.
If the more body feeling continues, I will probably make another batch of this recipe. I thought I probably made a mistake in the directions since it did not come out the same as hers did. But if I didn't make a mistake, it is very possible that I might be able to at least plop the gooey mess into some molds. It will be a while before I get time or need to make another batch...too many projects coming up with deadlines. But I will come back to this to report.
Dear @Quilter99755, I do not want to cause undue alarm for you or your daughter, but would be remiss if I did not mention a concern about using rice that has not been sufficiently treated to destroy Bacillus cereus spores, which is very hard to do because they are extremely hardy, heat resistance and survive a variety of adverse conditions that normally destroy other micro organisms. It does not survive pH extremes well (very low pH and very high pH) nor low water activity (a formula I am not good at calculating) however, so perhaps the formula you are making is safe, but as a retired nurse, I would be very careful to thoroughly research AND probably consult an epidemiology and infection control specialist to ensure that the product is truly safe on the cochlear implant area.
I cannot find sufficient information on the process used to produce rice powder that would give me any indication that the spores would be destroyed or absent in the resulting rice powder, so I would not likely add rice powder to a product with a pH higher than 4.5 (and only if I had professionally accurate equipment for ascertaining the true pH level of said product).
Perhaps the 11% water content is low enough, but I really am unsure if it is or is not sufficient to foster growth of B. cereus spores, and once water is added during the shampooing process, the growth of B. cereus spores is more likely if they are present, so I would worry about long term use of a syndet bar with added rice.
I am no good at calculating 'water activity', and would not expect to own the equipment necessary for accurately testing, so that's another aspect that concerns me. However, in link #3 below, the 'water activity' level of shampoos (not sure how much it may vary) is sufficiently high to foster growth of B. cereus. The listing may only be for liquid shampoos, though, and may or may not encompass syndet shampoo bars. And of course I would suspect a particular formula would play a part in the actual measurement of 'water activity'.
Due to the cost of proper testing equipment, perhaps Challenge Testing would be a safe route to determine if this formula prevents growth of microbials that can cause infection. Or perhaps there is an antimicrobial cosmetics additive that prevents B. cereus spore growth (I have not researched all of them, so do not know.)
Perhaps I sound like an alarmist, and I am sorry if I am coming across as such. If you have already done the research or consulted your daughter's physician, please forgive me.
Below are some references regarding Bacillus cereus which refer to its veracity in the environment and its ability to survive and cause infection in humans. The first, second & third links are related to personal care products specifically; the others are more general, and some more related to food, although one other is specifically related to a skin infection caused by the organism. Some are rather technical, but the bottom line is that this organism is extremely persistent and quite capable of surviving normal decontamination methods and causing infection in human skin.
https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1111/ics.12191https://www.cosmeticsandtoiletries.com/research/methods-tools/article/21836223/water-activityhttps://www.cosmeticsandtoiletries....ols/article/21836223/water-activity#235095241https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7913059/https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0194346https://wchh.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/pdf/10.1002/pdi.1950https://tinyurl.com/5n8y6u6x (opens a pdf)
I cannot find sufficient information on the process used to produce rice powder that would give me any indication that the spores would be destroyed or absent in the resulting rice powder, so I would not likely add rice powder to a product with a pH higher than 4.5 (and only if I had professionally accurate equipment for ascertaining the true pH level of said product).
Perhaps the 11% water content is low enough, but I really am unsure if it is or is not sufficient to foster growth of B. cereus spores, and once water is added during the shampooing process, the growth of B. cereus spores is more likely if they are present, so I would worry about long term use of a syndet bar with added rice.
I am no good at calculating 'water activity', and would not expect to own the equipment necessary for accurately testing, so that's another aspect that concerns me. However, in link #3 below, the 'water activity' level of shampoos (not sure how much it may vary) is sufficiently high to foster growth of B. cereus. The listing may only be for liquid shampoos, though, and may or may not encompass syndet shampoo bars. And of course I would suspect a particular formula would play a part in the actual measurement of 'water activity'.
Due to the cost of proper testing equipment, perhaps Challenge Testing would be a safe route to determine if this formula prevents growth of microbials that can cause infection. Or perhaps there is an antimicrobial cosmetics additive that prevents B. cereus spore growth (I have not researched all of them, so do not know.)
Perhaps I sound like an alarmist, and I am sorry if I am coming across as such. If you have already done the research or consulted your daughter's physician, please forgive me.
Below are some references regarding Bacillus cereus which refer to its veracity in the environment and its ability to survive and cause infection in humans. The first, second & third links are related to personal care products specifically; the others are more general, and some more related to food, although one other is specifically related to a skin infection caused by the organism. Some are rather technical, but the bottom line is that this organism is extremely persistent and quite capable of surviving normal decontamination methods and causing infection in human skin.
https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1111/ics.12191https://www.cosmeticsandtoiletries.com/research/methods-tools/article/21836223/water-activityhttps://www.cosmeticsandtoiletries....ols/article/21836223/water-activity#235095241https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7913059/https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0194346https://wchh.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/pdf/10.1002/pdi.1950https://tinyurl.com/5n8y6u6x (opens a pdf)
Thank you ever so much! I was not aware of this at all. I know she has not tried the shampoo as she is currently trying out the Stephenson's Syndopour that I gave her. I just texted her so that she does not use it until we figure this all out. I will also forward all the info to her and let her decide if she wants to talk with her doctor about it. Personally, I think she will pass altogether rather than worry about it.
I haven't read any of the articles yet, but for sure I will be looking at them with an eye out for rice in soap, too, since I make a rice soap.
Again, thanks for the info and do not feel like you have stepped on toes or come across as an alarmist. I'd rather be informed than not!
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Rice in lye soap should not be a problem, and especially so if you use HP to make your rice soap. I also make rice soap using NaOH and do not worry about it all.
[Structural and biochemical changes in the spores of Bacillus cereus exposed to caustic soda and hypochlorite] - PubMed (re: 1% NaOH)
Persistence strategies of Bacillus cereus spores isolated from dairy silo tanks - PubMed (re: 5% NaOH & pH)
[Heat treatment for the control of Bacillus cereus spores in foods] - PubMed (re: heat)
Granted they do use a weak bleach solution as well in link #2, but I don't go that far when making soap.
I am confidant that the higher Lye concentration, the resulting pH level of lye soap and the heat required to gel my soap is entirely sufficient to create a safe soap with the amount of rice product I use in the soap. However, I would still probably not use it as a shampoo simply because I don't use lye shampoo on my hair.
Again, thanks for the articles. My soap is HP so it should be good to go. My hair seems to take just about anything on it including lye soap, but my scalp doesn't like the sulfates in a lot of shampoos.
Lots of reading to digest for me the next few days.
Lots of reading to digest for me the next few days.
What an incredibly thorough and helpful response! It's posts like this that keep me coming back every day!
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Read about this bacteria a few days ago in this article about unrefrigerated pasta. A Student Died in His Sleep After Eating Leftover Pasta—Here's How
@earlene Again I want to thank you for all of the mountains of information that you collected for me! I'm no chemist so a lot of it was way over the top for me to really understand. But I got the gist of the warnings and it was enough for me to not put rice in a shampoo bar. The bars do have a preservative in them, but no or little heat to cook. Even for me, I have decided I'll pass on the shampoo and toss the whole batch...it was a little one so no harm no foul.
I feel like I owe you BIG TIME for all this information. It just might have been fatal or at least very uncomfortable for either of us. I will stick with my soaps since they are HP, but will remember this if I ever decide I want to CP my rice soap! It is just not worth the risk.
I almost didn't clarify why I was testing out shampoo bars, so I guess you are the reason that something compelled me to write the long piece in this thread. Bless you for stepping in.
I feel like I owe you BIG TIME for all this information. It just might have been fatal or at least very uncomfortable for either of us. I will stick with my soaps since they are HP, but will remember this if I ever decide I want to CP my rice soap! It is just not worth the risk.
I almost didn't clarify why I was testing out shampoo bars, so I guess you are the reason that something compelled me to write the long piece in this thread. Bless you for stepping in.
Jennyinthewoods
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I'm tagging @Quilter99755 @JoyfulSudz and @Servant4Christ so you know I'm responding over here.
I used this bar for this first time this morning. It's been two weeks since I made it. I just cut my hair short - think: Chris Jenner
I thought that to do a pure experiment, I shouldn't use any conditioner or put anything in my hair after my shower. But my hair was so fluffy (a good thing, I guess) that I capitulated and rubbed a few drops of argan oil in it (a tip I found here at SMF).
I just want to note again here that I added kaolin clay (4 tsp for each 100g bar) to harden my shampoo bars, so that might have an effect on the outcome in the shower. If I decide to make this bar again, I'll weigh the clay instead of using volume measurement, so I can get an idea of the % I used compared to Humblebee's other shampoo bars with clay. I also substituted the camellia seed oil in the recipe for argan oil because I don't have camellia seed oil and I've really been loving argan oil for my hair.
Next time use stearic acid instead of clay. You'll be glad you did
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