hp pt volcano

[johnnyusa]

I agree with adding it before complete saponification which is why I added it right before it finished. That's when it decided to bubble up and over ... I did warm the PT, but I didn't check the temp on it before adding. I'm a little worried about doing it again before saponification. Not sure I'm going to risk it again.
For hthp, I heat the oils to between 160 and 180, mix the lye, let it cool just a couple of minutes, down to about 180 before adding to the oils. The lye heats it up and it cooks at ~200. I rarely have volcanos anymore.

Thanks for the tips. That will be valuable info i'll factor in when i'm planning my cook.
I think maybe we just need to find the right temp for the fats/pt solution when we pour in hot freshly mixed lye solution, bc the pt is a trace accelerant just like temperature, glycerin, soap as an emulsifying catalyst, alcohol, and whatever other chemicals Green recommended that i ignored.
I need a bigger pot. I need to return the 16 qt stock pot i got from Amazon bc it's only 8' deep.
I want the deepest ss tri-ply induction pot i can find for this job, & Cuisinart doesn't sell a Multiclad Pro bigger than the one I've got now.
6 years ago when I upsized my stock pot last time from an 8 quart cuisinart induction pro to the 12 quart version i tried to save some bucks in the meantime using a cheaper pot and my cook totally failed, flopped, fell right on it's face, a la it never even lifted off from the launch pad- so this time I'm just going to buy the tallest & most expensive tri-ply induction pot i can find.
I think i like the 20 qt Tramontina 12.36 x 15.98 x 12.87 stock pot but for some reason it's $50 cheaper than the smaller 12 quart Cusinart Multiclad Pro, which makes me nervous. Ex taught me to just buy Cuisinart bc their stuff is that good. All-Clad sells a very nice 11.4' deep 16 quart pot w aluminum disc in it for induction stoves, but if a 20 quart pot would work on my stove that'd be super cool.
I hope my crappy electric stove is powerful enough to pull this off w a way bigger pot n if not i'll return the 20 qt Tramontina for the 16 qt All-Clad.
Wish i had a gas range.
Making soap on a gas stove sooooo nice.
All sauciers prefer to work on gas.

 

[Zany_in_CO]

I did warm the PT

I warm the PT in the can set on a warmer plate to get it fluid. I then add it to my melted oils (along with the fragrance) and blend for one full minute. Then cool to room temp. I SB the room temp oils again to make sure they are well combined before adding the lye solution.

For CP, I make the lye solution the night before and add it straight from the fridge. Hard for HP'ers to imagine, I suspect, but it does react instantly with the PT. BUT. It's manageable. At that point, I move fast. I stir the batch well with a spoon and pour into the mold as quickly as possible.

I think this would work in a crockpot as long as it isn't turned on. Truly, it heats up quickly without any additional heat needed.

 

[Zany_in_CO]

I'm a little worried about doing it again before saponification. Not sure I'm going to risk it again.

Try making a small trial batch of soap without the PT. Mold it up and wait until it shreds easily. Once shredded, add the PT. Mix well and mold it up. That's what I would do.

I can't help but wonder if the PT would still warm the soap up at that stage of full saponification? Hmmm.

For hthp, I heat the oils to between 160 and 180, mix the lye, let it cool just a couple of minutes, down to about 180 before adding to the oils. The lye heats it up and it cooks at ~200.

That's all well and good, as we both know, but, JMHO, it's also way too hot for making Pine Tar Soap.

Thus sayeth the Rebatch Queen.

 

[johnnyusa]

Is the texture of cold process soap better than hot process soap, or am I doing this wrong?
Does it just need to cure longer?
The scent from my hp bars comes thru ever so much better & i'm superfatting w super fancy oils, yet the texture of my lathered cp soap cured six months is still better and more pleasant than the same from my 1st hp bars, using more expensive oils but only a 3-day cure.
I won't be able to compare apples to oranges until my hp bars have cured 3-6 months n i canna wait that long.
Any thought on the texture of lathered cp vs hp bar soap?
Isn't hp supposed to be better everything or otherwise why do we do all this dangerous stuff except for a better scent, a supposedly harder & longer lasting bar, & a faster turnaround on the cook?

 

[contrinokathy]

Is the texture of cold process soap better than hot process soap, or am I doing this wrong?
Does it just need to cure longer?
The scent from my hp bars comes thru ever so much better & i'm superfatting w super fancy oils, yet the texture of my lathered cp soap cured six months is still better and more pleasant than the same from my 1st hp bars, using more expensive oils but only a 3-day cure.
I won't be able to compare apples to oranges until my hp bars have cured 3-6 months n i canna wait that long.
Any thought on the texture of lathered cp vs hp bar soap?
Isn't hp supposed to be better everything or otherwise why do we do all this dangerous stuff except for a better scent, a supposedly harder & longer lasting bar, & a faster turnaround on the cook?

I only make Hot Process soap now but I used to make cold process soap. I have not noticed any differences in lather, texture or quality. Look, yes - sometimes. I can make lovely hot process soap but it isn’t as artistic.
I have read people find significant differences and people who don’t. I use my soap the night I make it but sell it after it is done curing. However long that takes. I have read many posts denigrating hot process and praising cold process. I have no wish to continue that here. I make hot process because I find it easier and safer with three dogs in the house. I am very happy with my choice. So many soapers are not as happy doing hot process.
I found hot process pine tar soap to be relatively simple. Pics are added.
Having said that - dual lye soap (shave soap of bar soap) is very different and I understand always hot process. I love it for some reasons

 

[Zany_in_CO]

Is the texture of cold process soap better than hot process soap

I think so. I like the smooth finish vs. "rustic" look of HP. Plus, once cured, my cigar band labels wrap the soap all the way around with crisp edges at the fold.

Does it just need to cure longer?

Whether HP or CP cure takes about the same amount of time.

using more expensive oils but only a 3-day cure.

Honestly? There's no reason for using expensive oils other than label appeal. Ever wonder why lard, the cheapest ingredient of all, is so popular on SMF? That's because it makes great soap for all types of skin!!!

If you've never done so, make a batch of lard soap with 15% coconut oil and 5% castor oil to boost lather. Add your fragrance to the castor the night before and add it to your warmed oils before adding your lye solution. Also try adding a teaspoon or so of white kaolin clay PPO to help "fix" the scent.

NOTE: While you can use your "fully saponifed" HP soap at the 3-day mark, that's not the same as "fully cured" which takes longer. Check out @DeeAnna 's Soapy Stuff for a better understanding of the curing process.

Any thought on the texture of lathered cp vs hp bar soap?

Whether copious or champagne bubbles, Lather depends on the FAs + additives used; not on the process.

I won't be able to compare apples to oranges until my hp bars have cured 3-6 months n i canna wait that long.

First of all, you CAN wait that long! We've all been there, done that!
BUT! You don't have to wait 3-6 months. 4-6 weeks is the average cure time for most soaps, with a few exceptions.

Isn't hp supposed to be better everything or otherwise why do we do all this dangerous stuff except for a better scent, a supposedly harder & longer lasting bar, & a faster turnaround on the cook?

I only have one recipe I do HP. Hopefully, an HP'er will come along to respond to what you wrote there. I'm not so sure it's all true and can't make that comparison because I do mostly CP and LS.

HTH

 

[Kcryss]

Is the texture of cold process soap better than hot process soap, or am I doing this wrong?

I only do HP and have never done CP, so I wouldn't know if the texture of the finished soap is different or not.

Does it just need to cure longer?

HP and CP need to cure the same length of time.

The scent from my hp bars comes thru ever so much better & i'm superfatting w super fancy oils, yet the texture of my lathered cp soap cured six months is still better and more pleasant than the same from my 1st hp bars, using more expensive oils but only a 3-day cure.

Soap cured for 6 months would certainly have a nicer lather. The reason I do HP is because I add everything at the end that I want to keep away from the lye monster. Fragrance, butters, colors ... everything except what is needed to make the soap itself.

Isn't hp supposed to be better everything or otherwise why do we do all this dangerous stuff except for a better scent, a supposedly harder & longer lasting bar, & a faster turnaround on the cook?

I've never heard that HP makes a harder or longer lasting bar. But I will admit my bars are very hard and do last a very long time. There isn't a faster turnaround time, it still needs a full cure. All of my soap cures for a min of 4 weeks, depending on what oils/fats I use.

I found hot process pine tar soap to be relatively simple. Pics are added.

Do you add the pine tar with your oils or after the cook?

 

[johnnyusa]

HP and CP need to cure the same length of time--> i know but Green said the chemist who wrote Scientific Soapmaking says that hp is always harder & longer lasting than cp when the same amount of water is used, and that hp bars w more water will never be as hard or long-lasting as hp bars made w less water.

Soap cured for 6 months would certainly have a nicer lather--> Green says the bars not 100% soap crystals until the 3 month mark but 6 months is better. I know 4-6 weeks is what i was taught too and that's fine but i have recently noticed the soap gets alot better after curing for roundabouts of 3 month or so. This is a highly debated and controversial topic. Apparently lots of HPers don't even think they need to cure their hp soap at all- that 1st hp bar w the 3-day cure on it is STILL in my shower.

The reason I do HP is because I add everything at the end that I want to keep away from the lye monster. Fragrance, butters, colors ... everything except what is needed to make the soap itself-----> yes, precisely. I insist upon EOs and they're expensive so if i can get a better scent w/o passing em thru the lye monster all the better

There isn't a faster turnaround time, it still needs a full cure---> way faster turnaround time for somebody who usually has to wait 5-14 days to get my soap out of the mold bc i don't abide SL. It gives me the heebie jeebies. And soap can't be certified organic w SL in it. Plus Dr B doesn't use it.



Do you add the pine tar with your oils or after the cook---- i DID superfat today w/ 0.5% pine tar plus 2.5% each cocoa butter and argon

said :

For hthp, I heat the oils to between 160 and 180, mix the lye, let it cool just a couple of minutes, down to about 180 before adding to the oils. The lye heats it up and it cooks at ~200. I rarely have volcanos anymore---> so i did what she said and it worked great, i mean i screwed up but just add more water n everclear n heat until it's done expanding and water mostly evaporates from fixing last screwup. Thanks, Kcryss

contrinokathy said:​

I have read many posts denigrating hot process and praising cold process. I have no wish to continue that here. I make hot process because I find it easier and safer with three dogs in the house
------------> me neither. I totally like hp. Your pt soaps are quite beautiful.

Zany said : Honestly? There's no reason for using expensive oils other than label appeal. Ever wonder why lard, the cheapest ingredient of all, is so popular on SMF? That's because it makes great soap for all types of skin!!!
-----the whole point of doing hp is mostly so we can add expensive oils and scents that don't have to go thru the lye monster. With cp yea there's no point superfatting w expensive oils, but that's the whole fun of hp. I know you to be a master soapmaker who already knew that so just a reminder this is hp rather than cp... and regarding the lard and tallow in all your soaps... i subbed my cocoa butter for some lard once and didn't prefer the results. I'm in love w/ the chocolate scent from raw cocoa butter in my finished soaps, which seem to accentuate the EOs. Your recipes w the tallow look so wonderful and i've wanted to try one but can u pls tell me how does the tallow affect the scent, if at all?
If tallow doesn't detract from the scent then i WOULD like to try it.
Any thoughts on the merits of using tallow versus butters in body butter?

1 lb test hp recipe in 20 quart pot, 10% pt added to oils, 1/2% pt in the post-cook superfat, post saponification i used distilled water, glycerin, everclear, & hot superfat oils plus 0.5% pt as solvents to get it fluid enough to pour into the mold. Did the whole thing w a whisk and Ali's milk frother n measured it all into glass jars the day b4 so I could easily melt it the next day in a double boiler (had 2 of em going) or the oven on an aluminum plate. I never ever use the microwave and also had never done smaller than a 5 lb cook before today.
The oils were 180 as recommended by Kcryss when i mixed the lye but it lost heat so fast bc lower "thermal mass" [helpful concept><Thermal mass - Wikipedia] from less oils. After i created hot lye solution i poured it into the freshly reheated-to-180 soaping pot n mixed hell out of it w/ the whisk but it got down to 121 degrees on me bc maybe lye cooled too much so then i had to turn heat on high praying for a volcano that never came. It was even difficult to observe the expansion as it was occurring bc i snuck up on the 'volcano point' from her rear side this time.
So i just kept on whippin' it w the whisk until it expanded enough i could get fit ali's milk frother in there, which at that point worked GREAT.
Later this week going to try upsizing it slowly to like maybe 60oz fats, same recipe, until i can figure out how to get back to doing same size batches in new, bigger pot. Like the pot btw.
Thanks for the tip on the milk frother, Ali. You're a blessing.
You too Kcryss and Zany.

 

[Kcryss]

Great to hear that adding the PT with the oils worked out! I will give it a try next time. I was worried that it would react the way it does with CP and I just don't want to go down that road. I've been making soap now for 4 years and I've lived without CP this long, no point in doing it now.

I do find it interesting that you mention HP being harder than CP. Since you've done both, have you made HP soap using the same recipe you've used for CP and found the HP to be harder?

 

[johnnyusa]

I do find it interesting that you mention HP being harder than CP. Since you've done both, have you made HP soap using the same recipe you've used for CP and found the HP to be harder?

Interesting question. You are a rare breed having learned HP before CP. Congratulations. And thanks for helping me figure this out.
BUT, as responsible soapmaker who has been doing this for awhile no i wouldn't recommend it for a Beginners, or noobs as i like to call them. Noobs aren't supposed to need industrial-grade respirators w/ a full shield (absolutely required for any kind of hp imho), chemical-resistant gloves, giant pots, powerful stickblenders- ali's milk frother couldn't cut the mustard on my 5 lb hp batch today and i finally got to use my Robot Coupe!!
I like hp and i wouldn't necessarily say it's harder, but it is more dangerous. Kids shouldn't try this at home without full hip-hop supervision. Do they know yet that boiling water and hot beeswax are practically just as dangerous as lye solution? Will they know to use a very hot water bath but not add boiling water when they're mixing their glycerine and everclear in a glass jar rather than the hotplate in the oven like Green recommends?
There's certain processes i used to pull this off that i don't want to disclose right this sec but suffice to say i think hp soapers should have more insurance on their home than cp soapers, who don't practically need any at all.

 

[AliOop]

Interesting perspective, @johnnyusa. I started with HP and did only that for many years, before finally trying a CP recipe (which I didn't like at all at that time).

However, my HP was very basic. I used the same process as one would use to make CP, except that instead of pouring the batter when emulsified or traced, I cooked it to the gel stage before molding. No additional ingredients, high temps, or the like.

It was shortly after I started trying CP that I found Ashley Greene's books. I got into the science of it all then: CP, HP, and LS.

Bottom line, I don't find basic HP any harder than basic CP. But I absolutely do agree, HTFHP is not for beginners. So many more ingredients to track, and many more potentially dangerous slip-ups due to the higher heat and those extra ingredients.

 

[johnnyusa]

5 lbs more hp pt soap
I forgot to take the last 1 lb test batch out before i poured this and even tho i calculated the 5-lb recipe to the gram like Dee Ann taught me it still took up more space than my 5 lb mold.
The smooth side is the good side that came out fluid and the other side i had to scrape out the last little bit w the spatula.

this is how we do it in Texas

not so smooth but will still turn into 100% soap crystals

 

[johnnyusa]

Interesting perspective, @johnnyusa. I started with HP and did only that for many years, before finally trying a CP recipe (which I didn't like at all at that time).

Of course you did.
We're all rare birds here, but you're our leader.

PS I already knew Kcryss was prob you bc it's unlikely there's somebody else in this forum I've never heard of w that knowledge.
You're the only other person here who could do that.
Thank you so much.

 

[AliOop]

We're all rare birds here, but you're our leader.

I must respectfully disagree....you and @Kcryss both have a lot more experience with a variety of HP recipes and techniques. And you've definitely taken the HTFHP way further than I ever dared. HP Pine tar is a good example of that. Keep blazing that trail for us.

 

[Kcryss]

@johnnyusa, I did start with HP, but I did a TON of research before ever making my first batch. I read of all @DeeAnna information on Classic Bells, read a ton of stuff on SMF, found as much information as I could and then finally formulated my first soap.

Still wondering if HP bars are for some reason harder than CP. Do you know @AliOop ?

 

[AliOop]

Still wondering if HP bars are for some reason harder than CP. Do you know @AliOop ?

Sorry, I am no help on this one.

 

[johnnyusa]

Green says hp bars done properly are a lot harder. I don't know if it's true or not until my bars cure for quite awhile.
I like Ashley Green's 450ish pg hp ebook, but i'm glad i took the time to read her 1000+ pg cp book first. Green gives options for all styles of soapmakers.
ALi told me Sharon Johnson sells one too.
Thanks for reminding me about DeeAnna's Classic Bells website. Need to spend some time there. I've argued w her just a little once or twice then i try it my way n always find out she's right; namely, do my cook by the gram rather than the oz and it's better to scent a whole pot of liquified paste at once rather than doing complicated error-prone math for more frequent work.
new batch

i'm pretty sure i achieved gel phase this time

dr squatch's $8/bar pt soap has pine FRAGRANCE in it but no actual pine tar
how is that even legal?

 

[Zany_in_CO]

Thanks for reminding me about DeeAnna's Classic Bells website. Need to spend some time there. I've argued w her just a little once or twice then i try it my way n always find out she's right;

You're not the only one! Just making sure @DeeAnna sees this!

Still wondering if HP bars are for some reason harder than CP.

Green says hp bars done properly are a lot harder.

@johnnyusa I'm beginning to think so... I've been pleased to sample a few of @Kcryss's soaps. Most recently, her pine tar soap. Waaaay harder than anything in my stable of CP soaps. It's incredible really.

I came across this from The Healthy Porcupine All Natural Tallow Soap while researching something else today. I thought it might be helpful to add it to this thread.

Facts & Myths about Pine Tar Soap

From skin-calming properties to odor-absorbing abilities, pine tar soap has been popular among those with sensitive skin for centuries. But what exactly is this spectacularly powerful tool in your natural beauty arsenal? In this blog post, we will explore the facts and dispel some myths about how you can take advantage of all this incredible soap has to offer! So keep reading - you’re sure to love what you discover about our Pine Tar 20% tallow soap.

NOTE: @Kcryss's 20% PT soap bar is almost black like that one.

 

[Kcryss]

Green says hp bars done properly are a lot harder.

Good to know! I didn't realize that. My bar are very hard so I started using dual lye to try and soften it just a bit. Doesn't seem to have helped. Maybe I should up the amount of koh.

Thanks for reminding me about DeeAnna's Classic Bells website. Need to spend some time there. I've argued w her just a little once or twice then i try it my way n always find out she's right; namely, do my cook by the gram rather than the oz and it's better to scent a whole pot of liquified paste at once rather than doing complicated error-prone math for more frequent work.

lol, yes, she is always right and my source for inspiration.

i'm pretty sure i achieved gel phase this time

Doesn't your HP gel all the time?

dr squatch's $8/bar pt soap has pine FRAGRANCE in it but no actual pine tar
how is that even legal?

Not sure where that screenshot was taken from, but it does say Ingredients overview so could indicate that not all ingredients are listed? I went to the Dr Squatch website and found this for pine tar soap:

@johnnyusa I'm beginning to think so... I've been pleased to sample a few of @Kcryss's soaps. Most recently, her pine tar soap. Waaaay harder than anything in my stable of CP soaps. It's incredible really.

I came across this from The Healthy Porcupine All Natural Tallow Soap while researching something else today. I thought it might be helpful to add it to this thread.

NOTE: @Kcryss's 20% PT soap bar is almost black like that one.

Good to see another really dark pine tar soap.

 

[DeeAnna]

I find it extremely interesting that pine tar is listed after pine fragrance and orange EO in the Squatch bar. IMO, pine tar is used in small amounts in this bar. Last time I looked, pine tar is a minor ingredient in Grandpa's pine tar soap as well -- I estimated below 5% of the total.