How to get Palm-free & Vegan Conditioning Bubbles? - Please Critique

[Dooleykins]

Note: with your butter amount, this soap will likely be a fast mover. The one down side of RBO is that it also hastens trace. All of this combined...if you want to get fancy with your designs, you'll have to test out if that is achievable for you.

Thanks! I'll keep that in mind. I think I'm going to follow @KiwiMoose's suggestion of replacing the cocoa butter with soy wax, so hopefully that will help.

I think I'm comfortable enough with my new tweaks to try a test batch. I'll let you know how it goes!

 

[AliOop]

I regularly use a 2-3% SF with 20% CO, and users don't find my soap drying at all. If you are concerned, try dropping the CO to 18%.

Yes, you can use 100% AVJ for your liquid. It does not need to be frozen or even chilled. Of course, some folks like chilling their liquid to reduce lye fumes and keep the overall temp lower on the lye solution (less waiting for it to cool down.)

I hear you on using existing ingredients to keep costs lower. However, as Megan noted, some folks do experience crystalization with CA. I've had that only 1-2x with CA, and never with sodium citrate. Just one thing to keep in mind while testing.

Also, since you are hoping to sell, start checking local sites now for what other soapers are selling, and for how much. Soapmaking is a huge fad right now, and so many are drawn to it in the hope that they can make a living, or at least a side income, or enough to pay for costs, from selling. I am not on FB, but I have a friend who checks for me, and there are regularly 2-3 people destashing all their soapy stuff because they found out they could not even cover costs due to the market being flooded.

I don't say that to discourage you from trying, but just to go in with your eyes open, and do your research. Seems like you are off to a good start with all the investigation you are doing here through SMF.

 

[Dooleykins]

I regularly use a 2-3% SF with 20% CO, and users don't find my soap drying at all. If you are concerned, try dropping the CO to 18%.

Fantastic, thanks! I'll try 3% SF then.

Yes, you can use 100% AVJ for your liquid. It does not need to be frozen or even chilled. Of course, some folks like chilling their liquid to reduce lye fumes and keep the overall temp lower on the lye solution (less waiting for it to cool down.)

Even more reason to love it! I may chill it moving forward, but at least I can do a test batch today with my room-temp AVJ.

I hear you on using existing ingredients to keep costs lower. However, as Megan noted, some folks do experience crystalization with CA. I've had that only 1-2x with CA, and never with sodium citrate. Just one thing to keep in mind while testing.

That's definitely a good point. If I do start running into that issue, I'll definitely switch - I'd just rather use the citric acid if I can, since I already use it in other products as well.

Also, since you are hoping to sell, start checking local sites now for what other soapers are selling, and for how much. Soapmaking is a huge fad right now, and so many are drawn to it in the hope that they can make a living, or at least a side income, or enough to pay for costs, from selling. I am not on FB, but I have a friend who checks for me, and there are regularly 2-3 people destashing all their soapy stuff because they found out they could not even cover costs due to the market being flooded.

I don't say that to discourage you from trying, but just to go in with your eyes open, and do your research. Seems like you are off to a good start with all the investigation you are doing here through SMF.

Thanks! I've definitely been doing market research, and I *think* I have a good pricing structure set up. I actually have a spreadsheet going of all my input costs, but I need to update it to grams (I originally put everything in ounces) and plug in my new formula to make sure that it still works out ok. My prices are definitely in line with what I can find locally and on Etsy, and I'm still hitting the benchmarks I'd like to. (I studied Economics in college, used to teach Business Studies, and worked as a bookkeeper, so I think I've got a decent idea of what to shoot for).

I don't mind spending money on certain ingredients that I think will work well and sell well (i.e. AVJ, Hemp seed oil), but I'd rather reduce my costs on other ingredients if I can to balance it out (i.e. subbing soy wax for cocoa butter, and RBO for some of the OO). It's all a balancing act!

I have definitely noticed that it's a pretty saturated market, so I'm trying to figure out ways to differentiate myself (i.e. hempseed oil, locally sourced ingredients). In addition to my vegan soap line, I'm also working on a goats milk and tallow formula that will be made with all locally sourced animal products (a lot of my neighbors do free range, grass-fed ranching).

I've been focusing a LOT on marketing and market research - I hired a local artist to design my labels, and I have been distributing test batches of my various product lines and collecting survey responses. I'm currently signed up for a number of popular local farmers markets and am in the works of corroborating with a couple of local CSA programs as well as a local food co-op that specializes in local goods. I did the farmers market circuit last year with produce and eggs, which is wayyyyyy more saturated and low margin, so I have high hopes for this year.

If nothing else, I'm going to give it my best shot and see how this year goes!

 

[KiwiMoose]

I use fresh AVJ that I cut from my plant, peel and blend. If my plant is suffering from overuse, I buy powdered concentrate from my supplier and use that instead. I always freeze it flat into baggies (even the concentrate) so it's easy to smash up into smaller pieces for mixing in the lye. I prefer to use frozen because it keeps the lye mixture cool. Alternatively, I always keep some distilled water ice cubes in the freezer so i can add a few to liquids that are not already cooled. At the very least i would keep your AVJ in the fridge.
I can see the label appeal for hempseed oil given your context - but just use 5% unless you managed to get it real cheap. You can big it up on your label - "Includes local hempseed oil!"
I use 415 but due to a mix up once, I used a whole 5kg bag of 464 without knowing. I didn't notice any difference. As long as it's all soy with no coconut or paraffin or anything else you should be fine. I don't tell the punters that I use soy wax - because they go straight to "Eew candle wax in soap?". I label it as soybean oil (hydrogenated).
The subbing soy wax for cocoa butter and RBO for Olive oil is exactly the conclusions I came to to keep the costs down.
I use a 50/50 saturated/unsaturated ratio.
Check this out - I found it useful in my earlier days: https://www.modernsoapmaking.com/blog/the-most-popular-fatty-acid-profiles-in-soapmaking/ She uses 10% castor.
Good luck - keep us posted!

 

[Dooleykins]

I'm a Rice bran oil aficionado - I use it at 20 - 30 % because it's good, and half the price of Olive Oil.

I realize you're in New Zealand and I'm in the US, but I'm actually not finding rice bran oil to be very cheap.

Curious if anyone US based has suggestions on where to source it?

I just updated my pricing spreadsheet and I can get Olive Oil (regular, not extra virgin or organic) for US$5.02 per kg (from Costco Business - 6L for US$27.69), whereas Rice Bran Oil is coming out to between US$7.59 per kg (from Bulk Apothecary - 7.5lb for $26.93) US$7.02 per kg (from Bulk Apothecary - 30lb for $99.90).

Take my pricing per 100g with a big spoonful of salt. I'm converting between imperial and metric, as well as volume and mass , so I'm almost certain there's something lost in translation.

Assuming my math is vaguely on point, at $2.00 more per kg than Olive Oil, would you still sub in Rice Bran oil, or would you stick with Olive Oil?

 

[KiwiMoose]

I realize you're in New Zealand and I'm in the US, but I'm actually not finding rice bran oil to be very cheap.

Curious if anyone US based has suggestions on where to source it?

I just updated my pricing spreadsheet and I can get Olive Oil (regular, not extra virgin or organic) for US$5.02 per kg (from Costco Business - 6L for US$27.69), whereas Rice Bran Oil is coming out to between US$7.59 per kg (from Bulk Apothecary - 7.5lb for $26.93) US$7.02 per kg (from Bulk Apothecary - 30lb for $99.90).

Take my pricing per 100g with a big spoonful of salt. I'm converting between imperial and metric, as well as volume and mass , so I'm almost certain there's something lost in translation.

Assuming my math is vaguely on point, at $2.00 more per kg than Olive Oil, would you still sub in Rice Bran oil, or would you stick with Olive Oil?

I would stick with OO. Our RBO ($US3.09 per litre) is literally half the price of OO here. It the cheaper oil of choice for most families - available from the supermarket.

 

[DeeAnna]

Another issue to consider in addition to cost is quality. Cheap olive oil isn't necessarily -- in fact very likely not -- 100% olive oil.

 

[Dooleykins]

Another issue to consider in addition to cost is quality. Cheap olive oil isn't necessarily -- in fact very likely not -- 100% olive oil.

Whaaaaaaat???

I just checked my bottle of olive oil from Costco (Kirkland Signature). The label just says "Refined Olive Oil and 15% Extra Virgin Olive Oil."

Wouldn't they have to state if they were mixing it with something else?

I did some googling and found this:

Although the Costco assortment is mostly extra virgin, a great example of their leadership in the category is their regular “Olive Oil” product. “Olive Oil” is a grade, officially defined as a blend of refined olive oil and virgin olive oil. Some official grades and standards—including those of the California Department of Food and Agriculture (CDFA) and the European Union (EU)—require that the label state that the product is a blend of refined and virgin olive oils. Several years ago, Costco voluntarily labeled their Kirkland Signature Olive Oil in compliance with the standards of the CDFA, even including the percentage of extra virgin in the blend, despite the fact that they were not covered by this requirement.

Source: The Best Olive Oils at Costco 2021: Blind Tasted by Experts | OliveOil.com

The picture right above this quote is exactly the label that I am looking at.

The Costco website states:

Product Details

• Pure Olive Oil
• Refined, 15% virgin
• Kosher
• 3 liter jug (101.4 oz)
• 2-count

Just made 4 test batches tonight with my newly tweaked recipe. Excited to see how they turn out!

I will say that this new formulation traced incredibly quickly. For my own speed of production I don't really mind, as it saves me time, but I could see this being annoying if I want to try out fancier designs.

I did four 1kg (oil weight) cold process batches with changes as follows:

(A) Subbed Aloe Vera juice for 100% of water. No other changes.
(B) Control. Just did the new basic recipe.
(C) Added 10g citric acid*, and 6.24g extra NaOH
(D) Control-ish - Base recipe-ish** + 1.5tsp mica and 1oz FO

Notes on Batch C
*Also ended up adding 10g extra water to this batch. I forgot to add the citric acid before adding the lye to the water, so I dissolved it separately in 10g water and then added it to the lye-water solution (SLOWLY!). It fizzed and jumped but seemed to turn out ok. Since it's only 1% of the oil weight I'd be surprised if the additional water changes things much.

Notes on Batch D
This was actually meant to be a test batch testing hot process instead of CP, but it didn't work out that way!

I master batched the oil mixture for all 4 batches in my crockpot to minimize risk of measuring error and differences in oils to different batches. I thought I had measured everything carefully (and took notes!), but somehow ended up 25g short by this batch. I'm guessing it's just the extra oil that stuck to my spatula, measuring cup, and ladle. I think going forward I'll masterbatch a bit extra of my oils to avoid this problem (maybe 4040g instead of 4000g total?)

I ended up just adding 25g extra olive oil and using the batch anyway. Since it was already a bit off for experimentation purposes, I went ahead and added some mica and a FO that my boyfriend has been wanting me to try out (Smoke and Suede from CandleScience). It'll be a nice little surprise for him, and gave me a chance to see how this recipe plays with FOs and colorants.

This one seemed to trace even faster than the others, but I was also trying to do more with it so I may just have noticed it more. I attempted a drop swirl pattern, but by the time my 3rd color was mixed in all three were setting up on me so I just kind of threw them in haphazardly. I tried swirling with a drink stir stick, and ended up introducing air gaps to the bar since it was already so thick. I tried smoothing it back down and doing a simple swirl on top.

Luckily this one is just for my boyfriend and not a scent line I'm planning on testing for selling (unless he loves it, I guess?)

Overall I'm pretty happy with the recipe so far, although not sure how I'm going to deal with the fast trace in the future when I'm adding FOs and micas. I did use a water discount (40% or 1.5:1 water:lye) so I may try bumping this up to 2:1 water:lye the next go round, hoping it will give me some more time.

Very open to other suggestions on slowing down trace.

I'll keep you guys updated and post some pictures when I cut these loaves!

 

[KiwiMoose]

Oh! I knew there was a reason I don't use such a high lye concentration! More water slows the trace. I use 30%.

 

[Christa10]

CVS has aloe vera juice in gallons. If you buy one for $12.99 you can get an additional one for 40% off, so two gallons would cost about $18, or about $9 per gallon

 

[Dooleykins]

CVS has aloe vera juice in gallons. If you buy one for $12.99 you can get an additional one for 40% off, so two gallons would cost about $18, or about $9 per gallon

Thank you!!! This is way better than Bulk Apothecary + shipping. I'll check there.

edit: just checked, and no CVS within 30 miles of me has it, but Walgreens has a similar deal going. Thank you!!!

Oh! I knew there was a reason I don't use such a high lye concentration! More water slows the trace. I use 30%.

Thanks! I'll try that.

 

[AliOop]

I use 40% lye concentration and find that it is slower than 35%. But I think it varies by recipe.

 

[dibbles]

Thank you!!! This is way better than Bulk Apothecary + shipping. I'll check there.

edit: just checked, and no CVS within 30 miles of me has it, but Walgreens has a similar deal going. Thank you!!!

Walmart has AVJ. The last time I bought it I paid about $7 for a gallon. I freeze it in ice cube trays.

 

[Dooleykins]

I use 40% lye concentration and find that it is slower than 35%. But I think it varies by recipe.

Thanks! Looks like I'll be doing another set of test batches with various water discounts.

 

[Basil]

I realize you're in New Zealand and I'm in the US, but I'm actually not finding rice bran oil to be very cheap.

Curious if anyone US based has suggestions on where to source it?

Hi! I just popped in and skimmed, and thought I would share , but I’m bad at links.
Riceland Rice Bran Oil 128 oz .14 oz. on Amazon , compared to Sam’s Club olive for .12 ounce.
Amazon was out for awhile but it’s back in stock again. I flip between two recipes depending because my brain just does that lol. Sounds like you’re on a roll

 

[KiwiMoose]

Thanks! Looks like I'll be doing another set of test batches with various water discounts.

Remember that the more water - the more likely your soap will gel.

 

[AliOop]

Remember that the more water - the more likely your soap will gel.

... and the more likely you can imitate @KiwiMoose's lovely glycerine rivers!

 

[cmzaha]

I don't mind spending money on certain ingredients that I think will work well and sell well (i.e. AVJ, Hemp seed oil), but I'd rather reduce my costs on other ingredients if I can to balance it out (i.e. subbing soy wax for cocoa butter, and RBO for some of the OO). It's all a balancing act!

I have definitely noticed that it's a pretty saturated market, so I'm trying to figure out ways to differentiate myself (i.e. hempseed oil, locally sourced ingredients). In addition to my vegan soap line, I'm also working on a goats milk and tallow formula that will be made with all locally sourced animal products (a lot of my neighbors do free range, grass-fed ranching).

Keep in mind to differentiate yourself in a market, especially an open-air market is to have better soaps, bigger selections, and consistent products. I sold in markets, especially my regular weekly market which had up to 10 soap sellers at any given time. When I started in the market I was up against a couple of long-time sellers. I lasted until they left. I knew I had to better my products and up my choices which I did. I did not have to use expensive oils in my products, just very well-balanced soaps. My main base was a tallow/lard combination and a palm with 10% shea for my vegan. I did have one line of camel milk soaps with sold fairly well but only used enough camel milk and fat for label appeal. The same with my hemp oil soaps they contained about 10% so more label appeal than anything. This is how I handled expensive additives. I used chelators in all my soap so they would rinse off cleanly and no one ever questioned the additives even the EDTA. I use EDTA/Sodium Gluconate at 0.5% batch weight each. All my soaps were a CO/Palm kernel combination with cleansing at 15% or less. Sorbitol at 1.1% batch weight to boost lather. You simply do not have to spend a lot of money on expensive oils to make a nice soap.

On that note I just bought a soap from a seller at one of my old markets last Friday, not that I needed the soap, just to support the soapmaker. It smelled delicious, but is AWFUL, and was not a cheap soap plus she only uses Essential oils. This was an unlabeled soap which totally goes against my way of selling but it was a weak moment for me, she adds in jojoba which we know is very expensive. After I got home I checked out her website. Turns out it was mostly OO, which I figured and hate, CO next on the list if I could believe her website since her listing of ingredients is not correct, on top of that her descriptions put her into the drug category. This was after reading her About and she has an MBA. So much for marketing degrees...

EDTA: @Dooleykins I cannot tell if you are male or female but if you are female I highly recommend having a male with you at market. Men buy from men. My husband was always with me and I had a very large mans clientele. In fact in most of my markets I sold to more men than women. Men love good smelling soaps and you would be surprised how many like floral scents.

 

[DianaMoon]

Soy wax will add the same longevity properties at a lower cost. Castor oil does not add lather it only supports lather so is a waste and only adds softness to your soap and is expensive but accelerates trace. I know at least one gal here uses soy a lot in vegan soaps and I am sure she will pop in with percentages.

Interesting contrarian take - I've always read that castor oil does add lather. As someone who is always sympathetic to contrarianism, and who wants to simplify recipes, I'm intrigued.

@Dooleykins
I personally prefer sodium citrate to citric acid bc no lye adjustment is necessary, and it makes a great cheese sauce.

LOL, I have a bag of SC as an experiment with the cheese sauce. It was fun but I love me good old flour-based white sauce with cheese. OK, back to soaping.

 

[Dooleykins]

Hi! I just popped in and skimmed, and thought I would share , but I’m bad at links.
Riceland Rice Bran Oil 128 oz .14 oz. on Amazon , compared to Sam’s Club olive for .12 ounce.
Amazon was out for awhile but it’s back in stock again. I flip between two recipes depending because my brain just does that lol. Sounds like you’re on a roll

Thank you!

A friend of mine who has nut allergies pointed out that she would be wary of using a product with Almond Oil, so I might substitute Rice Bran Oil in for the Almond (especially in my un-scented line).

Remember that the more water - the more likely your soap will gel.

I'll definitely keep that in mind, thank you!

Keep in mind to differentiate yourself in a market, especially an open-air market is to have better soaps, bigger selections, and consistent products.

Thanks! This is definitely my goal. I have 4 "core" lines with 4 scents each, and I already have ideas for my next two lines. I also have an extra slot in each display rack so I think I'll do a rotating "limited edition" scent within each line that will allow me to test new scents, colors, and additives.

In addition to bar soap, I am also selling beard oils and beard balms, as well as some other body care products. They'll all be in the same core "lines" so that it will be cohesive, and I plan to put together gift sets that people can purchase as well.

I sold in markets, especially my regular weekly market which had up to 10 soap sellers at any given time. When I started in the market I was up against a couple of long-time sellers. I lasted until they left. I knew I had to better my products and up my choices which I did. I did not have to use expensive oils in my products, just very well-balanced soaps. My main base was a tallow/lard combination and a palm with 10% shea for my vegan. I did have one line of camel milk soaps with sold fairly well but only used enough camel milk and fat for label appeal. The same with my hemp oil soaps they contained about 10% so more label appeal than anything. This is how I handled expensive additives. I used chelators in all my soap so they would rinse off cleanly and no one ever questioned the additives even the EDTA. I use EDTA/Sodium Gluconate at 0.5% batch weight each. All my soaps were a CO/Palm kernel combination with cleansing at 15% or less. Sorbitol at 1.1% batch weight to boost lather. You simply do not have to spend a lot of money on expensive oils to make a nice soap.

Thanks so much for the feedback!

I'll have to look more into sodium glutinate. Did you find it performed better than citric acid, or was more cost-effective, or both?

I'll definitely look into sorbitol for BUBBLES if my new formulation still gets feedback that those are lacking. I was initially surprised by how big of a deal that was in feedback, but a lot of my testers were men and I think they were used to using bodywash.

On that note I just bought a soap from a seller at one of my old markets last Friday, not that I needed the soap, just to support the soapmaker. It smelled delicious, but is AWFUL, and was not a cheap soap plus she only uses Essential oils. This was an unlabeled soap which totally goes against my way of selling but it was a weak moment for me, she adds in jojoba which we know is very expensive. After I got home I checked out her website. Turns out it was mostly OO, which I figured and hate, CO next on the list if I could believe her website since her listing of ingredients is not correct, on top of that her descriptions put her into the drug category. This was after reading her About and she has an MBA. So much for marketing degrees...

Yikes... It is truly amazing to me how little people look into things.

May I ask what you hate about Olive Oil soaps? I'm currently using OO at 20%.

EDTA: @Dooleykins I cannot tell if you are male or female but if you are female I highly recommend having a male with you at market. Men buy from men. My husband was always with me and I had a very large mans clientele. In fact in most of my markets I sold to more men than women. Men love good smelling soaps and you would be surprised how many like floral scents.

Thanks for the tip! I am a woman. My boyfriend will be with me at my Saturday morning markets, but won't be at most of the rest (he works full time and also has a contracting job, so he's pretty busy). Especially since a lot of my products are geared towards men (beard oil, beard balm, "mountain" scented soaps etc.) I'll be curious to see how much his presence effects sales.

I'm pretty "bro-y" myself and generally get along really well with men, but I can understand that they might be more comfortable buying body care products from another guy. Maybe I can bribe some of my bearded friends to join me at other events...