honey in soap

[shteph]

Hi!

Got some problems with hoeny in my recipe. i used thesage.com calculator and figured out the following recipe:

300g olive oil
114g water
39g lye
(i am trying small quantities.... I am a beginner and bit afraid of spoiling batches, which i have done a lot of times....)

I added a big tbsp honey in the trace (full trace phase- quite thick trace) and the soap does not harden even after 5 days.... and it got a funny smell.... not strong....but a bit unpleasent....

has anyone experienced that?
Should i substract the quantity of honey from the quantity of oil?
does honey react with the lye?

thanks for your attention and help,

 

[carebear]

First off - you're fine! Just be patient. It'll harden.

Second - to answer your questions, don't subtract from the oils. Oils and honey have nothing to do with each other.

Third - go easy on the honey. Usually about 30 grams per kilo of oil (15 grams per pound)

Now, why still soft? With small batches you probably didn't "gel" which means your reaction (saponification) is going to be slow. OO is slow anyway. Without gelling it could take, gee, maybe 2 weeks, especially since you used "full water".

First advice - wait. For as long as 2 weeks.
Second advice - next time make a bigger batch (small batches are much easier to screw up than larger ones. Try to go at least 450-500 grams of oils), and a 35% lye solution
Third advice - honey. Just stirring in honey at trace is likely to get you little gobs of honey throughout your soap. Next time, save out a bit of your water, warm it up and stir in the honey till it's dissolved. Add it to your soap batter once it's relatively uniform (you don't need to wait for trace).

 

[shteph]

thank you for the answer

Hi,

Thank you very very much for your answer and advice. it has been very useful indeed and ..reassuring. I will do that!

But..... you used to things i've never heard of: to do "gel", what's that? I haven't done that but i don't even know what's it! could you please tell me more about that or give me some references where I can read more about.
And the other thing.... "full water".....? do you mean that i can use less water, so the soap will harden faster? or i can divide the quantity of water into two and use it at two particular moments (let's say.... with lye and with honey as you suggested)? where can I read more about this "full water" or "less water" stuff?

Hope I am not bothering you too much with my questions.
Thank you for taking your time for that!

best regards,
shteph

 

[c.a.p.]

Use the search function to see many, many threads on gel.

Plug in your numbers into thesage calc again. See that it gives you a range of water to use? You used the most water. If you use the middle or lower ends of the range for your water addition, the soap should not be as soft yet it will still be safe.

And as carebear said, olive oil will take longer to cure than other, harder, oils.

 

[carebear]

Gel is when the reaction gets hot enough to change (temporarily) the texture of the soap to something kinda jelly like. Remember, saponification is a chemical reaction. You'll see it as a dark area - starting in the center and working its way to the outside. It is unlikely to happen with small batches unless you add heat (by insulating well and putting on a heating pad or putting in a WARM oven).

Some avoid gel because it can impact the the final color of the soap, but many prefer it because the the heat actually increases the speed of the reaction and so we get "finished" soap faster.

Full water - that means using the amount of water recommended by your lye/soap calculator. I actually recommend using full water, or close to it, because it encourages gel, and gives you a bit more time to work with the soap. BUT in the case of castile soaps, most of us use less water - you'll probably want about a 35% lye solution.

Hope that helps.

(it's hard to search on very common terms like "gel" because you get scads of irrelevant hits. that's cool because you end up reading tons, but it's also frustrating.)

Oh - I don't know if you've already done it, but if not I suggest visiting millersoaps.com (or is it millersoap.com?). It's a great resource for beginning soapers.

 

[shteph]

Hi!

Thank you for you ideas. they are very helpful.
Going to experiment a bit with less water to see how it goes. have visited millersoap.com, good stuff in there....
i will try next time to get the "gel".... usually, my trace gets thick as a custard but never that gel-ish aspect. will try to set the pot on the oven and see how it is going to happen!
this forum is wonderful!!! i have found very interesting and important things.... just reading through. but difficult to find exactly the things I am looking for. but.... it may be a matter of ..patience as with the soap making

best regards

 

[carebear]

if you are going the oven route, PREHEAT it to the lowest it'll go (usually 170F). many will turn the oven off when they put the soap in so it doesn't over heat. others leave the oven on that low setting for a couple of hours.

 

[shteph]

I've seen some videos with people use a crockpot. i may get one for myself. i tried once "on the oven" and the soap got to thick, difficult to put into the mould.... but it wasn't "gel" at all. perhaps the temperature was to high and the water evaporated too fast.
by the way.... is it necessary to test the soap for ph. is it dengarous if the soap has a higher ph than 7-9 as a read some places?

 

[AZ Soaper]

If you are going to use a crock pot, that is a whole other animal. Search crock pot method or hot processed. You are basically cooking your soap and then putting it in the mold. Now some people can make really pretty soap like this, I can not. The best part of this method is you can use the soap right away. Although some say it is better if you do let it cure.

If you want to force a gel, place your soap in your mold, cover it(I put cardboard over the top), wrap it in towels or blankets (I use 2 wool blankets) and leave it for 18-24 hours. If you want to force gel with the oven, put your soap in the mold and place in the oven. HTH

 

[shteph]

Thanks for the tip az soaper!! i don't want to do hot process...
i will try both options. I use some silicone muffin moulds for the soap that stand quite high temp. i am going to wrap up some of them in towels or blankets and some in the oven. Shall i heat the oven at 75C (170F) as carebear suggested? how much time should I "roast" them in the oven?
i'm very excited about experimenting it !!

 

[shteph]

done my first "gel" covered the moulds with couple of towels.it went well.... quite funny at the beginning when the colour suddenly changed. I used coconut oil 300gr, 100gr water, 46gr lye. i read that some guyes here did that 100% coconut oil with 20% discount. i only did 15% ...next time perhaps...

 

[calico21]

Did you superfat?
I didnt run recipe. Most superfat an all CO recipe or they say its a bit drying.

Ok, I ran it. Looks like you superfatted 15 % . I think it should be okay, best of luck!

 

[shteph]

hi calico21,
i am planing to use again honey. i want to have a soap with olive oil and honey. last time... it didn't go so well.. the soap is still soft and very sticky when i touch it. and the paper underneath, which i place it on is full of grease now. the soap is very greasy. was told that it will harden in the end.
Do you have any good tips of how i can make an olive oil soap with honey? i am going to use a bit of salt (read here around that the salt will help the hardening process) and the "gel" phase. i quite enjoyed that!

 

[turnedlight]

I'm by no means experienced, but I know where you are coming from - I used honey in my first ever soap, I thought it would be nice to have extra than the recipe said because I thought it might smell.. the soap didn't harden so I put it back in the pot and gently warmed it, then remoulded.
It went fine after that - but I have learned that you don't get the lovely smell from the honey (or the amount of beeswax you can put in, either) and so in my latest batch I have used just a teaspoon to 16oz oils, and a honey fragrance.

 

[shteph]

thanks turnedlight. that's true. its been a week since and still soft and sticky. it sticks to my fingers when i touch it. i think i will try to remould it as you did. but perhaps i will keep one or two pieces just ..out of my curiousity to see how it goes.what about the beewax? have you tried it? i am very keen on these products... thinking of trying with wax.

 

[c.a.p.]

Just to clarify, gel happens in the mold, not in the soap pot.

 

[shteph]

that's what i did.... i poured the soap in the mould and covered with some towels... had a look once in a while... i liked how the colour changed.

 

[shteph]

ooops! i did it again... but this time went better with honey. read here about salt in the cp... so i used some salt in water. i have also covered the moulds to get that "ge" and it worked. it got hard... but now i have another problem... the soap has a darker colour in the very middle than on the edges. and it is still sticky, very!...it sticks on my fingers when i handle it.

 

[c.a.p.]

That darkness in the middle with lighter edges is a partial gel. This happens if there is not enough heat. Next time, try sticking it in the oven for an hour or so at your lowest heat setting (most seem to use about 170F). Then turn off the oven and leave it 'til the next day. That should give you full gel (I don't gel, although I do nothing to prevent it).

How long has it been in the mold? Let it be and see if it loses it's stickiness. How much honey did you use?

 

[jimlard]

That darkness in the middle with lighter edges is a partial gel. This happens if there is not enough heat.

Does a partial gel affect the quality of your finished soap? Is it better to have either a full gel or no gel rather than a partial gel?