Honey disaster in CP

[PuzzledSoapmaker]

Hello everyone. Before I get to the big question, I would like to share some of my experiences regarding honey in CP with you. I apologize in advance for the long post but I am hopeless.

My first honey CP soap was a recipe from a book whose author gels all her soaps and soaps in high temperatures. I followed her recipe to the dot and added the honey at trace and the soap ended up nice, but unfortunately, despite being liquid, the honey did not properly disperse, as I could see one or two tiny specks of liquid honey after I cut the soap.

After going through the CP beginner phase, I learned what I like and I generally don't gel my soaps (it depends, really). I also soap at low temperatures, around 25-30°C (77-86°F). I decided to make another attempt at CP with honey, and following another recipe, I added it at trace again. I used the same honey, although older because it had been a while, and the soap turned... blood red. The soap itself is amazing, but my goal was a honey color, so, you know.

This made me do some research on other methods and I found out you can add honey to lye. I tried that, but not only did it not properly disperse, it again turned blood red. It looked like it scorched and became candy-hard, even though the lye water stayed at a very low temperature. I tossed it. My guess is that it didn't disperse because of the high lye concentration I use, but in any case, the color remains a problem.

My recent attempt was the same recipe but I decided to add the honey in a different way, one that I saw in Holly's Soapmaking video - dispersing honey in some warm water, and adding it to oils before the lye solution. Everything looked perfect, the batter couldn't have been smoother, and it was a dream to work with. Like Holly, I put the soap in the freezer for a few hours and in the fridge overnight. It looked like nothing could go wrong

This morning I took it out and as I am writing here, I have just finished cutting it, and I am at a loss. I don't mind the partial gel, I actually wanted to achieve a honey-colored soap so I will let this one gel in the future. But... does anyone have an idea what those red specks could be? They are exactly the same color as my honey when it scorched, and the blood-red soap. Also, they look wet after cutting but dry after a while.

I'm confident they are not lye spots, I'm thinking it could be the honey. But why did this happen? Do you think there is a problem with the honey I'm using? Should I use a different honey, or change my method entirely?

In case anyone needs it, here is my recipe:

Olive oil 42%
Coconut oil 23%
Castor oil 17%
Cocoa butter 9%
Shea butter 9%

It is an amazingly creamy shaving bar, so use 15% superfat for it and my lye concentration is 47%. I have never had an issue with either. The recipe itself is one I have mastered, but since I will start selling my soaps soon, I am perfecting my recipes and thus also the colors.

I should also add that to achieve this color, my lye solution was not made with water but with a mix of milk and brewed coffee. The very tiny brown specks are the coffee residue that cannot really be strained out (I don't think they should be a problem but feel free to share your thoughts about it).

Thank you in advance,
The puzzled soapmaker

 

[lsg]

The recipe calls for a lot of Castor oil. Most people use just 5%-8% Castor oil in their recipes. Honey tends to be an agent that will make the soap heat up as it saponifies. My suggestion is to keep the soap in the freezer for a couple of days before unmolding. You still may get a partial gel after cutting the bars.

 

[Jorah]

I hope it's okay if I respectfully disagree with the 'disaster' label.... I love how this looks! (not saying you should love it!)

 

[Obsidian]

Could be the honey wasn't quite dissolved all the way in the water, could be it was the milk that scorched.
Maybe try a small batch with just honey, no milk or coffee. I'd dissolve the honey in really hot water, add it after it cools and blend the heck out of it before adding the lye

 

[SSC Oregon]

I had that happen in my honey powder soaps. I chalked it up to being sugars that didn't dissolve, but I definitely could be wrong.
Makes me think that must be what it is if liquid honey did the same thing.
I stay humble!

 

[Jorah]

I hope it's okay if I respectfully disagree with the 'disaster' label.... I love how this looks! (not saying you should love it!)

Oh, and welcome to the forum! I see you've just joined today.

 

[PuzzledSoapmaker]

I hope it's okay if I respectfully disagree with the 'disaster' label.... I love how this looks! (not saying you should love it!)

Thank you very much (also for the welcome!), I actually don't mind the way it looks. The disaster part was about the fact that I cannot seem to get soaps with honey right. Either they morph into strange colors, or the honey scorches, or it doesn't dissolve it's an adventure on its own...

Could be the honey wasn't quite dissolved all the way in the water, could be it was the milk that scorched.
Maybe try a small batch with just honey, no milk or coffee. I'd dissolve the honey in really hot water, add it after it cools and blend the heck out of it before adding the lye

Thanks for your reply, I will definitely try different combinations in small batches, until I find the culprit. My gut tells me that something is up with the honey so I will try to use a different one next time too.

I had that happen in my honey powder soaps. I chalked it up to being sugars that didn't dissolve, but I definitely could be wrong.
Makes me think that must be what it is if liquid honey did the same thing.
I stay humble!

I will definitely come back to this thread once the issue is resolved and let you guys know. My first attempt with liquid honey was smooth without any red specks, so there is a chance that the honey is indeed the problem.

 

[Jody Ann Meier]

Hello everyone. Before I get to the big question, I would like to share some of my experiences regarding honey in CP with you. I apologize in advance for the long post but I am hopeless.

My first honey CP soap was a recipe from a book whose author gels all her soaps and soaps in high temperatures. I followed her recipe to the dot and added the honey at trace and the soap ended up nice, but unfortunately, despite being liquid, the honey did not properly disperse, as I could see one or two tiny specks of liquid honey after I cut the soap.

After going through the CP beginner phase, I learned what I like and I generally don't gel my soaps (it depends, really). I also soap at low temperatures, around 25-30°C (77-86°F). I decided to make another attempt at CP with honey, and following another recipe, I added it at trace again. I used the same honey, although older because it had been a while, and the soap turned... blood red. The soap itself is amazing, but my goal was a honey color, so, you know.

This made me do some research on other methods and I found out you can add honey to lye. I tried that, but not only did it not properly disperse, it again turned blood red. It looked like it scorched and became candy-hard, even though the lye water stayed at a very low temperature. I tossed it. My guess is that it didn't disperse because of the high lye concentration I use, but in any case, the color remains a problem.

My recent attempt was the same recipe but I decided to add the honey in a different way, one that I saw in Holly's Soapmaking video - dispersing honey in some warm water, and adding it to oils before the lye solution. Everything looked perfect, the batter couldn't have been smoother, and it was a dream to work with. Like Holly, I put the soap in the freezer for a few hours and in the fridge overnight. It looked like nothing could go wrong

This morning I took it out and as I am writing here, I have just finished cutting it, and I am at a loss. I don't mind the partial gel, I actually wanted to achieve a honey-colored soap so I will let this one gel in the future. But... does anyone have an idea what those red specks could be? They are exactly the same color as my honey when it scorched, and the blood-red soap. Also, they look wet after cutting but dry after a while.

I'm confident they are not lye spots, I'm thinking it could be the honey. But why did this happen? Do you think there is a problem with the honey I'm using? Should I use a different honey, or change my method entirely?

In case anyone needs it, here is my recipe:

Olive oil 42%
Coconut oil 23%
Castor oil 17%
Cocoa butter 9%
Shea butter 9%

It is an amazingly creamy shaving bar, so use 15% superfat for it and my lye concentration is 47%. I have never had an issue with either. The recipe itself is one I have mastered, but since I will start selling my soaps soon, I am perfecting my recipes and thus also the colors.

I should also add that to achieve this color, my lye solution was not made with water but with a mix of milk and brewed coffee. The very tiny brown specks are the coffee residue that cannot really be strained out (I don't think they should be a problem but feel free to share your thoughts about it).

Thank you in advance,
The puzzled soapmaker

I LOVE the color of the gelled center on your soap!!
When I make soap with honey, I usually put bubble wrap in the bottom of the mold and another bubble wrap on top to create the honeycomb look.
The bubble wrap does a great job of insulating, so I always get a nice hot gel stage.
I have tried many times to prevent gel stage on different soaps, always ending up with the gel circle in the middle, and finally decided if I can't beat em' join em, and now I force gel on all my soaps.

I think this honey soap of yours will be great.

I think putting it through full gel would look even nicer, and those flecks are probably pieces of honey that the sugar carmalized. They are not ugly or unattractive, it makes your soap look more natural and wholesome.

Side note, when I add honey, it's just about 1 tsp and I dilute it with about 1 TBS warm water, then stir that in last right before I pour into the mold.

If you use the bubble wrap, don't over insulate it with too many towels, etc., check on it occasionally for over heating.

I think your honey soap is beautiful.

 

[PuzzledSoapmaker]

I LOVE the color of the gelled center on your soap!!
When I make soap with honey, I usually put bubble wrap in the bottom of the mold and another bubble wrap on top to create the honeycomb look.
The bubble wrap does a great job of insulating, so I always get a nice hot gel stage.
I have tried many times to prevent gel stage on different soaps, always ending up with the gel circle in the middle, and finally decided if I can't beat em' join em, and now I force gel on all my soaps.

I think this honey soap of yours will be great.

I think putting it through full gel would look even nicer, and those flecks are probably pieces of honey that the sugar carmalized. They are not ugly or unattractive, it makes your soap look more natural and wholesome.

Side note, when I add honey, it's just about 1 tsp and I dilute it with about 1 TBS warm water, then stir that in last right before I pour into the mold.

If you use the bubble wrap, don't over insulate it with too many towels, etc., check on it occasionally for over heating.

I think your honey soap is beautiful.

Hi, thanks a lot for the kind message. I haven't had much trouble with preventing gel in the past, but this one had a plan on its own apparently! I do prefer this one gelled so I will not try to stop it next time.

I really like the color of your soap as well, it reminds me of honey too. I will try your hack for adding the honey.

The specks I got do not bother me visually - I'm more concerned about any possibility of mold... I hope the soap will be fine. Thanks again!

 

[Kiti Williams]

Hello everyone. Before I get to the big question, I would like to share some of my experiences regarding honey in CP with you. I apologize in advance for the long post but I am hopeless.

My first honey CP soap was a recipe from a book whose author gels all her soaps and soaps in high temperatures. I followed her recipe to the dot and added the honey at trace and the soap ended up nice, but unfortunately, despite being liquid, the honey did not properly disperse, as I could see one or two tiny specks of liquid honey after I cut the soap.

After going through the CP beginner phase, I learned what I like and I generally don't gel my soaps (it depends, really). I also soap at low temperatures, around 25-30°C (77-86°F). I decided to make another attempt at CP with honey, and following another recipe, I added it at trace again. I used the same honey, although older because it had been a while, and the soap turned... blood red. The soap itself is amazing, but my goal was a honey color, so, you know.

This made me do some research on other methods and I found out you can add honey to lye. I tried that, but not only did it not properly disperse, it again turned blood red. It looked like it scorched and became candy-hard, even though the lye water stayed at a very low temperature. I tossed it. My guess is that it didn't disperse because of the high lye concentration I use, but in any case, the color remains a problem.

My recent attempt was the same recipe but I decided to add the honey in a different way, one that I saw in Holly's Soapmaking video - dispersing honey in some warm water, and adding it to oils before the lye solution. Everything looked perfect, the batter couldn't have been smoother, and it was a dream to work with. Like Holly, I put the soap in the freezer for a few hours and in the fridge overnight. It looked like nothing could go wrong

This morning I took it out and as I am writing here, I have just finished cutting it, and I am at a loss. I don't mind the partial gel, I actually wanted to achieve a honey-colored soap so I will let this one gel in the future. But... does anyone have an idea what those red specks could be? They are exactly the same color as my honey when it scorched, and the blood-red soap. Also, they look wet after cutting but dry after a while.

I'm confident they are not lye spots, I'm thinking it could be the honey. But why did this happen? Do you think there is a problem with the honey I'm using? Should I use a different honey, or change my method entirely?

In case anyone needs it, here is my recipe:

Olive oil 42%
Coconut oil 23%
Castor oil 17%
Cocoa butter 9%
Shea butter 9%

It is an amazingly creamy shaving bar, so use 15% superfat for it and my lye concentration is 47%. I have never had an issue with either. The recipe itself is one I have mastered, but since I will start selling my soaps soon, I am perfecting my recipes and thus also the colors.

I should also add that to achieve this color, my lye solution was not made with water but with a mix of milk and brewed coffee. The very tiny brown specks are the coffee residue that cannot really be strained out (I don't think they should be a problem but feel free to share your thoughts about it).

Thank you in advance,
The puzzled soapmaker

Could the red coloring come from RAW honey? This honey has a lot of things in it that are filtered out in commercial honey.

 

[PuzzledSoapmaker]

Could the red coloring come from RAW honey? This honey has a lot of things in it that are filtered out in commercial honey.

I used raw honey indeed. The mystery about it is that I used the exact same one in my very first honey soap, and none of this happened! I will try different honeys from now on

 

[Savage Daughter]

Hello everyone. Before I get to the big question, I would like to share some of my experiences regarding honey in CP with you. I apologize in advance for the long post but I am hopeless.

My first honey CP soap was a recipe from a book whose author gels all her soaps and soaps in high temperatures. I followed her recipe to the dot and added the honey at trace and the soap ended up nice, but unfortunately, despite being liquid, the honey did not properly disperse, as I could see one or two tiny specks of liquid honey after I cut the soap.

After going through the CP beginner phase, I learned what I like and I generally don't gel my soaps (it depends, really). I also soap at low temperatures, around 25-30°C (77-86°F). I decided to make another attempt at CP with honey, and following another recipe, I added it at trace again. I used the same honey, although older because it had been a while, and the soap turned... blood red. The soap itself is amazing, but my goal was a honey color, so, you know.

This made me do some research on other methods and I found out you can add honey to lye. I tried that, but not only did it not properly disperse, it again turned blood red. It looked like it scorched and became candy-hard, even though the lye water stayed at a very low temperature. I tossed it. My guess is that it didn't disperse because of the high lye concentration I use, but in any case, the color remains a problem.

My recent attempt was the same recipe but I decided to add the honey in a different way, one that I saw in Holly's Soapmaking video - dispersing honey in some warm water, and adding it to oils before the lye solution. Everything looked perfect, the batter couldn't have been smoother, and it was a dream to work with. Like Holly, I put the soap in the freezer for a few hours and in the fridge overnight. It looked like nothing could go wrong

This morning I took it out and as I am writing here, I have just finished cutting it, and I am at a loss. I don't mind the partial gel, I actually wanted to achieve a honey-colored soap so I will let this one gel in the future. But... does anyone have an idea what those red specks could be? They are exactly the same color as my honey when it scorched, and the blood-red soap. Also, they look wet after cutting but dry after a while.

I'm confident they are not lye spots, I'm thinking it could be the honey. But why did this happen? Do you think there is a problem with the honey I'm using? Should I use a different honey, or change my method entirely?

In case anyone needs it, here is my recipe:

Olive oil 42%
Coconut oil 23%
Castor oil 17%
Cocoa butter 9%
Shea butter 9%

It is an amazingly creamy shaving bar, so use 15% superfat for it and my lye concentration is 47%. I have never had an issue with either. The recipe itself is one I have mastered, but since I will start selling my soaps soon, I am perfecting my recipes and thus also the colors.

I should also add that to achieve this color, my lye solution was not made with water but with a mix of milk and brewed coffee. The very tiny brown specks are the coffee residue that cannot really be strained out (I don't think they should be a problem but feel free to share your thoughts about it).

Thank you in advance,
The puzzled soapmaker

I often use honey in soaps, and it's beautiful. Likewise coconut sugar & plain old sugar.

The way I do it is to stick blend my honey into my room temperature oils (I soap at room temperature) until it's thoroughly mixed in. I do this BEFORE adding my lye solution.

I have never had an issue doing things this way. I really don't think it's necessary to dissolve honey in water before adding to soap, or to add honey at trace. That just unnecessarily complicates things, for me, anyways. I got enough going on as it is In addition, I also often blend my essential oils into my room temperature oils before adding my lye, but this does depend on what type of soap I'm doing. Works just fine.

That said, I do LOVE Holly's videos! She is one of my favourite YouTube soapers

 

[Nona'sFarm]

Hi @PuzzledSoapmaker , I put honey in most of my soaps. Typically, I use about 1-2 tsp per pound of oils. Like you I've tried adding it at various stages. My preference is to add it to the oils. I usually soap between 90 - 110 F. The batter always turns red. It lightens to a beige shade after gelling. I usually CPOP my soaps. If I want a whiter soap, I add titanium dioxide at trace.
When using milk in soaps, I use an ice bath when combining the lye and liquids. This helps keep it from burning.
Hope this helps.
Have fun, enjoy your soaping.

 

[PuzzledSoapmaker]

Hi @PuzzledSoapmaker , I put honey in most of my soaps. Typically, I use about 1-2 tsp per pound of oils. Like you I've tried adding it at various stages. My preference is to add it to the oils. I usually soap between 90 - 110 F. The batter always turns red. It lightens to a beige shade after gelling. I usually CPOP my soaps. If I want a whiter soap, I add titanium dioxide at trace.
When using milk in soaps, I use an ice bath when combining the lye and liquids. This helps keep it from burning.
Hope this helps.
Have fun, enjoy your soaping.

Hi, thanks for your message. I usually soap slightly higher than room temperature, so I use frozen liquids to add my lye to. I've never had anything burn. I also use the same amount of honey as you.

P.S. your picture fits the thread very well!

 

[KiwiMoose]

The elephant in the room here is the amount of castor oil you have oil your recipe. Castor oil also helps soap to accelerate and overheat, coupled with the honey....

It's always gonna gel.

So i agree you should just roll with it.

Not sure about the speckles. I've never made a honey soap before but if I did, I would most likely dissolve the honey in a small amount of boiling water ( just as i do when I use sugar), chuck in some distilled water ( or other liquid of choice) ice cubes until I reach the desired liquid quantity for the recipe, then add my lye ( in small amounts) stirring all the time ( don't stop, especially if it starts heating up otherwise you will get toffee as i think you've discovered) and then put it into a cold water bath while still stirring until it starts to cool.

Whenever i make soap with starches - oat milk, rice milk etc i tend to get speckles ( and i always gel). I think there's something about the gelling heat that causes little starchy clumps - and maybe the same with the honey? Little toffee clumps?

 

[PuzzledSoapmaker]

Little update in case someone ever encounters the same issue - I bought a new honey (acacia). It is also raw, but it is very fresh so still entirely liquid.

I followed one of the methods above, adding a touch of warm water to dissolve the honey, then I added it at trace. It gave me a beautifully smooth batter and nothing scorched, despite the gel phase. I don't have any specks or caramel pieces.

I added more honey than I usually do, just to push it and see what happens, so now I definitely feel safe adding my usual amount of honey. I will share some pictures soon!

 

[PuzzledSoapmaker]

Hello everyone, I am back with a full report!

The spots on the soap I initially posted here still ooze when I open them up. It does indeed look like caramel. I tested the pH of the oozing liquid, alone as well as diluted in water, and they both yield 10, so at least they aren't dangerous. I will keep an eye on potential mold in the future, I'm not yet sure how the soap will behave.

I decided to buy new honey, fresh acacia honey that is still liquid, so it would be easier to work with.

I made a small test batch. I made half a pound of soap and I diluted 1 tsp of honey in 1 tsp of warm water and added it at trace. The batter was nice and smooth, and as you see, no specks in sight:

I then thought, "must have been the honey", and so using the new one, I decided to make my usual bigger batch with one of the methods you guys suggested, namely adding honey to the oils before the lye solution. And... the specks were back:

This made me think that despite the second honey being better than the first one, the problem always lay in the method I used to add it to the batter.

If I add the honey alone at trace, it may not disperse properly depending on its thickness and how quickly the batter reaches trace.

If I add it to the lye water, it turns dark red and so does my soap.

If I add it to the oils before the lye solution, I get specks.

The perfect solution, at least in my case, seems to be dispersing the honey in warm water and adding it at trace. In my latest attempt, I used 2 tsp honey which I dispersed in 2 tsp warm water. The batter was so pretty, I wish it could stay this shiny, wet honey color.

After going through the gel phase, the outside reaches a light creamy color and the inside a honey look:

I hope this will be able to help any new soapmaker who encounters one of the possible issues.

Thanks again to everyone who took the time to read my post and give me advice!

 

[KiwiMoose]

Thanks for the update - good to know!
Love your swirly soap top

 

[AliOop]

Looks great! So glad you found the solution that works best with your recipe and method.

 

[SSC Oregon]

Thank you for the update and info!!