Homemade Vanilla Stabilizer?

[Saponificarian]

So I finally made a batch with Sodium Metabisulphate. I decided to use the sodium metabisulphate as a percentage of my fragrance oil because it would be easier to apply that percentage regardless of whatever percentage of water or liquid I use for any given batch.

This experiment used the Sodium Metabisulphate at 30% of my Fragrance oil, dissolved in part of the vinegar for my batch, added to the fragrance oil. The mixture was then added to my batch.

The fragrance oil was Cashmere Cedar with 12% Vanillin from The Flaming Candle at 6% of my 500g batch. FO used was 30g and sodium metabisulphate at 30% was 9g.

I am impressed with the sodium metabisulphate at 30%. The soap is a nice yellow color, a little lighter than the color of unrefined Cocoa butter. Attached is a sample without the Sodium Metabisulphate.

It would have been nice to try the Sodium Thiosulphate too but I couldn’t find it in Canada and didn’t want to pay the shipping from the US. Someday soon....

 

[Todd Ziegler]

I read the entire thread and it looks like both ingredients are required and mixed @ 3oz each to 10 oz distilled water. I found the sodium metabisulfate on Amazon.ca for a great price and ordered it. I'm still having trouble finding a small quantity of the Sodium thiosulfate -checked SaveOnCitric.com but will cost $50+ to ship a $10 pkg. The Etsy option seems good if indeed it is the right product. Can someone take a look and let me know? TIA
Sodium Thiosulphate Crystals / powder Electro Plating Supply | Etsy

I read the description and it looks like the right product.

Hate to put a damper on this post as people seem excited about this but how are we to know if the usage of either of these chemicals are safe to use in soap. Obviously they are being used in some fashion by the larger companies that sell VCS's, but home brewing something like this seems a little risky to me. Will the saponification process and the fact that it is diluted in water negate any negative side effects these materials pose to skin exposure? Just playing devils advocate here and also looking for some extra knowledge behind the chemistry involved. I have always been a half empty type of person so I apologize for the negativity but with the litigious society we live I would rather have my soap be brown than get sued.

Good question.

Sodium metabisulfate is very safe. The FDA and the European union have approved for cooking, mainly in crackers and cookies and it is used as a preservative in the wine industry.

Sodium thiosulfate is also safe on the skin. It is used to dechlorinate aquarium water and you can also use it to lower the amount of chlorine in a swimming pool. It is also used to treat cyanide poisoning. It is also approved by the FDA and European union.

 

[Todd Ziegler]

I made up a solution using Todd’s directions. I have a 5% vanillin fo which I used 3 days ago. Am taking daily pics of it and no discolouration on white part of soap yet.
I am interested about the smell - mine has little or no smell unless you just about tip your nose in it. I’ve read about people worrying the bad smell will stay in the finished soap. Why is mine not smelling?
I will post pics after I collect at least a couple of weeks worth - I know the discolouration can take months.

Did you use the sodium metabisulfate or sodium thiosulfate or both of them together. Even as a small percentage, the metabisulfate should curl your toes when you smell it up close. The thiosulfate really does not have an odor to it.

So I finally made a batch with Sodium Metabisulphate. I decided to use the sodium metabisulphate as a percentage of my fragrance oil because it would be easier to apply that percentage regardless of whatever percentage of water or liquid I use for any given batch.

This experiment used the Sodium Metabisulphate at 30% of my Fragrance oil, dissolved in part of the vinegar for my batch, added to the fragrance oil. The mixture was then added to my batch.

The fragrance oil was Cashmere Cedar with 12% Vanillin from The Flaming Candle at 6% of my 500g batch. FO used was 30g and sodium metabisulphate at 30% was 9g.

I am impressed with the sodium metabisulphate at 30%. The soap is a nice yellow color, a little lighter than the color of unrefined Cocoa butter. Attached is a sample without the Sodium Metabisulphate.

It would have been nice to try the Sodium Thiosulphate too but I couldn’t find it in Canada and didn’t want to pay the shipping from the US. Someday soon....

If the FO that I am using has a low or none at all vanillin content and doesn't go brown, I will also use it as a percentage of my FO weight. I have found that it is not necessary to use a 1:1 rate every time. I usually just match the percentage of vanillin, if it has it, and if it has no vanillin but changes the batter color I will just use my judgment.

 

[earlene]

Todd, my supplies just arrived today, so in reviewing all the previous posts, and reading tons of stuff online about these chemicals, their dilution rates (based on temperature apparently) and so forth, I'm sort of in a quandery as to how to go forward. It's probably my mind being too caught up in too many things and going off in other directions (other stuff is going on, too), so please bear with me while I try to sort this out and get a better picture of the bottom line (if there is one as yet.) I have a few questions to help clarify and to help me understand:


1. Did you keep track of temperatures at all when you made your solutions? Both have different dilution rates based on temperature. (sodium metabisulfite solubility link) (sodium thiosulfate solubility link) If you say you used 'room temperature' please specify what room temperature is in your house, because we may not enjoy the same indoor temperatures. (I prefer cooler temps in the winter, but warmer temps in the summer, so my house internal temps fluctuate as such.)

2. Did you ever try glycerin as your dilutant? Sodium metabisulfite is 'very soluble in glycerin' per the above link.

3. What is your combined solution formula at this point? (30% each + 40% water as in post #67?)
ETA: Ratio: 3:3:10 with 10 being water. Percentages= 18.75% each of the two chemical + 62.5% water.
Corrected based on later answer and DeeAnna's post #88 on page 5 of this thread.

4. What is your chosen dilution for sodium metabisulfite alone? And why?

5. What is your chosen dilution for sodium thiosulfate alone?

6. Also, but not a question more like a curious difference in our findings when reading the material we have sought on this topic: According to my reading sodium thiosulfate and sodium thiosulfate pentahydrate are not necessarily mutually exclusive, because several sources I read say the former (sodium thiosulfate anhydrous) is more readily available in the latter form (sodium thiosulfate pentahydrate). It is the latter that glendam used in her homemade VS (post #17). (link) (link)


I'd also like to do some testing of each alone. I plan to use the same soap formula and Dragon's Blood FO.
So I'm looking at a minimum of 5 side-by-side comparison test soaps:

Control: No vanilla stablizer
Bitter Creek North Vanilla Stabilizer
DIY VS using solution combining sodium metabisulfite and sodium thiosulfate pentahydrate
DIY VS using sodium thiosulfate pentahydrate solution (25% to 75% water ? is what glendam & the blogger used)
DIY VS using sodium metabisulfite solution (you used 50% to 50% water, right and later 30% to 70% water)


I think that's all I need for a comparison study, other than the formula for the dilutions; once I have that worked out, I'll get started.


I have all the safety PPE I need to work with these. The MSDS for sodium metabisulfite also suggests wearing boots as skin protection for this chemical, so I will have to wear something other than flip flops for this. That's okay, I have my Wellies by the back door & can easily put them on. I usually only wear them when working in the mud, but they can do double duty. Good ventilation and eye washing stations are also recommended, so I will keep that in mind as well, but with all the PPE, it seem highly unlikely to need to do an eye wash.

 

[Zany_in_CO]

Okay. So now I have a quick question... Do you think I can use the diluted Sodium Metabitsulfite I have on hand for sanitizing bottles & jars as a Vanilla Stabilizer?

Dilution Rate: 2 oz. SM powder per gallon of water.

This is the fragrance I will be using:
WSP Jasmine Vanilla* - EO & FO Blend 504
Beautifully garnished silk white jasmine petals. This engaging rose fragrance comes to full bloom with creamy vanilla and classic rose. This oil contains 4.5% of essential oils and resins. Vanilla Content: 6%

PS: I gave the contents of the bottle a quick sniff. The scent reminded me of "smelling salts" ... strong, quick, sharp, acrid.

 

[AliOop]

Hi @Zany_in_CO ,

You definitely have the correct dry powder (sodium metabisulfate) but it doesn't sound like the dilution rate is correct for this application, that is, making VS for soap. You've only added 2 oz of powder to 128 oz (1 gallon) of water. Todd's ratios were at minimum 3 oz powder to 10 oz water.

HTH, and please show us pictures after you give it a try! I'm living vicariously through everyone else until I use up the commercial VS that I purchased RIGHT BEFORE I found the blog post telling us how to make our own. OY.

 

[Todd Ziegler]

Todd, my supplies just arrived today, so in reviewing all the previous posts, and reading tons of stuff online about these chemicals, their dilution rates (based on temperature apparently) and so forth, I'm sort of in a quandery as to how to go forward. It's probably my mind being too caught up in too many things and going off in other directions (other stuff is going on, too), so please bear with me while I try to sort this out and get a better picture of the bottom line (if there is one as yet.) I have a few questions to help clarify and to help me understand:


1. Did you keep track of temperatures at all when you made your solutions? Both have different dilution rates based on temperature. (sodium metabisulfite solubility link) (sodium thiosulfate solubility link) If you say you used 'room temperature' please specify what room temperature is in your house, because we may not enjoy the same indoor temperatures. (I prefer cooler temps in the winter, but warmer temps in the summer, so my house internal temps fluctuate as such.)

2. Did you ever try glycerin as your dilutant? Sodium metabisulfite is 'very soluble in glycerin' per the above link.

3. What is your combined solution formula at this point? (30% each + 40% water as in post #67?)

4. What is your chosen dilution for sodium metabisulfite alone? And why?

5. What is your chosen dilution for sodium thiosulfate alone?

6. Also, but not a question more like a curious difference in our findings when reading the material we have sought on this topic: According to my reading sodium thiosulfate and sodium thiosulfate pentahydrate are not necessarily mutually exclusive, because several sources I read say the former (sodium thiosulfate anhydrous) is more readily available in the latter form (sodium thiosulfate pentahydrate). It is the latter that glendam used in her homemade VS (post #17). (link) (link)


I'd also like to do some testing of each alone. I plan to use the same soap formula and Dragon's Blood FO.
So I'm looking at a minimum of 5 side-by-side comparison test soaps:

Control: No vanilla stablizer
Bitter Creek North Vanilla Stabilizer
DIY VS using solution combining sodium metabisulfite and sodium thiosulfate pentahydrate
DIY VS using sodium thiosulfate pentahydrate solution (25% to 75% water ? is what glendam & the blogger used)
DIY VS using sodium metabisulfite solution (you used 50% to 50% water, right and later 30% to 70% water)


I think that's all I need for a comparison study, other than the formula for the dilutions; once I have that worked out, I'll get started.


I have all the safety PPE I need to work with these. The MSDS for sodium metabisulfite also suggests wearing boots as skin protection for this chemical, so I will have to wear something other than flip flops for this. That's okay, I have my Wellies by the back door & can easily put them on. I usually only wear them when working in the mud, but they can do double duty. Good ventilation and eye washing stations are also recommended, so I will keep that in mind as well, but with all the PPE, it seem highly unlikely to need to do an eye wash.

The batch that I made for testing was 3ozs each of metabisulfate and thiosulfate in 10ozs of water. DeeAnna gives a better breakdown of the math in her post.

I only used distilled water for diluting the ingredients.

If you want to warm the water up to around 100°F it will help the metabisulfate dissolve faster and thiosulfate will dissolve quickly at any temperature.

@Zany_in_CO metabisulfate is used as a sanitizer and a preservative in wine making.

 

[Zany_in_CO]

Todd's ratios were at minimum 3 oz powder to 10 oz water.

Boo hoo. In case you didn't notice, that bag of powder was empty.

HTH, and please show us pictures after you give it a try! I'm living vicariously through everyone else until I use up the commercial VS that I purchased RIGHT BEFORE I found the blog post telling us how to make our own. OY.

Yes, that does help. Thank you. Like you, I'm living vicariously through this fascinating thread. OY! Indeed!

@Zany_in_CO metabisulfate is used as a sanitizer and a preservative in wine making.

Thanks. As it happens, Todd, I got the small supply I had from a lotion maker whose DH made home brew. As I am retired and trying to use up the leftovers from my soap and lotion making days, I was hoping to be able to give it a go. Oh well.

 

[Todd Ziegler]

Boo hoo. In case you didn't notice, that bag of powder was empty.

Yes, that does help. Thank you. Like you, I'm living vicariously through this fascinating thread. OY! Indeed!

Thanks. As it happens, Todd, I got the small supply I had from a lotion maker whose DH made home brew. As I am retired and trying to use up the leftovers from my soap and lotion making days, I was hoping to be able to give it a go. Oh well.

The stuff you have is the right stuff. I was just saying that it is also used in wine making.

 

[earlene]

The batch that I made for testing was 3ozs each of metabisulfate and thiosulfate in 10ozs of water. DeeAnna gives a better breakdown of the math in her post.

I only used distilled water for diluting the ingredients.

If you want to warm the water up to around 100°F it will help the metabisulfate dissolve faster and thiosulfate will dissolve quickly at any temperature.

Okay I looked back at DeeAnna's post #88 on page 5 of this thread (Yesterday I kept looking for it, but for some reason it eluded me.) Okay, then the ratio was: 3:3:10, so the percentages come out to 18.75% each of the Na-Metatsulfite & Na-Thiosulfate and 52.5% distilled water.

OR

18.75% or 3 parts sodium metabisulfite
18.75% or 3 parts sodium thiosulfate
62.5% or 10 parts distilled water


I will heat distilled water to 100° F first for faster dilution

Thank you, Todd.

Can you clarify for me regarding questions #4 & #5 I had? I am still a bit unsure which you used &/or why. I was hoping for all the information in one summary because searching back and forth through all 6 pages (so far) of this thread is getting cumbersome and I keep losing track of things. I don't want to make a mistake that I have to then toss out or try to re-batch. I'm sorry to put you on the spot, it's just how my mind works.


4. What is your chosen dilution for sodium metabisulfite alone? And why?
I think you tried 2 different dilutions. (Your Post #34 - was that about sodium metabisulfite? 0.25 ounces to 1 ounce water? 25% dilution?) (Your Post #36 50% solution? But you also mixed a 60% solution; did you ever try it?) In your post #41, you said you would make a 30% solution) So I'm wondering which dilution you have settled on as best for only sodium metasulfite.

5. What is your chosen dilution for sodium thiosulfate alone?
You settled on a 25% solution per your post #67. Why? Was that based on trying a 50% solution and seeing no difference in the results between the two? I may just go with that because of the OP's link to the DIY VS.

 

[Todd Ziegler]

Okay I looked back at DeeAnna's post #88 on page 5 of this thread (Yesterday I kept looking for it, but for some reason it eluded me.) Okay, then the ratio was: 3:3:10, so the percentages come out to 18.75% each of the Na-Metatsulfite & Na-Thiosulfate and 52.5% distilled water.

OR

18.75% or 3 parts sodium metabisulfite
18.75% or 3 parts sodium thiosulfate
62.5% or 10 parts distilled water


I will heat distilled water to 100° F first for faster dilution

Thank you, Todd.

Can you clarify for me regarding questions #4 & #5 I had? I am still a bit unsure which you used &/or why. I was hoping for all the information in one summary because searching back and forth through all 6 pages (so far) of this thread is getting cumbersome and I keep losing track of things. I don't want to make a mistake that I have to then toss out or try to re-batch. I'm sorry to put you on the spot, it's just how my mind works.


4. What is your chosen dilution for sodium metabisulfite alone? And why?
I think you tried 2 different dilutions. (Your Post #34 - was that about sodium metabisulfite? 0.25 ounces to 1 ounce water? 25% dilution?) (Your Post #36 50% solution? But you also mixed a 60% solution; did you ever try it?) In your post #41, you said you would make a 30% solution) So I'm wondering which dilution you have settled on as best for only sodium metasulfite.

5. What is your chosen dilution for sodium thiosulfate alone?
You settled on a 25% solution per your post #67. Why? Was that based on trying a 50% solution and seeing no difference in the results between the two? I may just go with that because of the OP's link to the DIY VS.

Sorry for the confusion, I misunderstood what you were asking and I really don't mind answering your questions. I'm off work waiting for surgery, so I have plenty of time. If you would like, I can send you a personal message with what you need to know.

Question 4. I chose 30% for the metabisulfate because that is how much was being used by crafters choice in their VS and percentages higher than that get more difficult to dissolve. Also according to the patent that I found for VS also used 30%.

Question 5. I went with 30% for the thiosulfate because, again, that is what was being used in the crafters choice VS.

Thiosulfate can be dissolved at 1:1 rate and all the way up to 2:1 but research showed that there was no reason to use that much.

 

[earlene]

Thank you, Todd.

Good luck with your surgery.

I got your PM, and greatly appreciate your clarifications. I will plan on doing some testing next week, I believe.

 

[Jeboz]

Did you use the sodium metabisulfate or sodium thiosulfate or both of them together. Even as a small percentage, the metabisulfate should curl your toes when you smell it up close. The thiosulfate really does not have an odor to it.

Hi Todd, I used a mix of both and had no obvious smell. I’ll check the product again but I’m sure they were 100% - one crystals and the other a fine powder.

 

[Todd Ziegler]

Here are some updated photos of the homemade VCS. I took the pictures today and then I put the pour date underneath them.

I know that these are early results but a couple of the soaps have actually improved. I think in the short term it's going very well but time will tell.

Forgot the pictures

 

[earlene]

That's pretty impressive, Todd!

At exactly 28 days from creation to this update, the
Cotton Candy soap made on 10/25/2020 looks unchanged.

It's the only one I could find a before & after picture for, but it's the oldest, so the quite exciting.

You stated you used the solution that was equal parts metabisulfate and distilled water at a 1:1 mix of FO to DIY VS.

50/50 metabisulfate solution. I'm using a cotton candy FO from WSP with a 9% vanillin.

And your FO usage in recipe was 6%

I am going to use a 1:1 mix with the FO which will be 1.8ozs of each. It says it darkens to dark brown. I'm using a synthetic white mica for half and a electric blue for the other half.
My recipe is 54% lard, 20% Coconut oil, 10% palm oil, 10% safflower oil high oleic, 6% castor oil and Sodium lactate.

For each of the ones picture today, did you use the same VS formula, or were there any differences? I am curious how the mix of the two chemicals are performing.

The one made on 11/9/2020 has a pinkish tinge in the white area surrounding the orange/yellow color. Is that new? It sort of looks like color bleed, but it's the wrong color. I didn't find a before picture, so not sure what it started out looking like. Which DIY VS solution did you use with this one?




My agenda for tomorrow is to start the DIY VS tests here; when I get it started I'll post updates here, if that's okay.

 

[SPowers]

So I finally made a batch with Sodium Metabisulphate. I decided to use the sodium metabisulphate as a percentage of my fragrance oil because it would be easier to apply that percentage regardless of whatever percentage of water or liquid I use for any given batch.

This experiment used the Sodium Metabisulphate at 30% of my Fragrance oil, dissolved in part of the vinegar for my batch, added to the fragrance oil. The mixture was then added to my batch.

The fragrance oil was Cashmere Cedar with 12% Vanillin from The Flaming Candle at 6% of my 500g batch. FO used was 30g and sodium metabisulphate at 30% was 9g.

I am impressed with the sodium metabisulphate at 30%. The soap is a nice yellow color, a little lighter than the color of unrefined Cocoa butter. Attached is a sample without the Sodium Metabisulphate.

It would have been nice to try the Sodium Thiosulphate too but I couldn’t find it in Canada and didn’t want to pay the shipping from the US. Someday soon....

Did you use the Sodium Metbisulphate only? Turns out the other ingredient on Etsy was $8.50 + $8.50 shipping but it was only 90 grams. That seems expensive given the small quantity so I didn't order it. If I can use just the one that would be ideal. Thanks.

 

[Saponificarian]

Did you use the Sodium Metbisulphate only? Turns out the other ingredient on Etsy was $8.50 + $8.50 shipping but it was only 90 grams. That seems expensive given the small quantity so I didn't order it. If I can use just the one that would be ideal. Thanks.

Yes, just the Sodium Metabisulphate.

 

[SPowers]

Great - good to know! Can't wait to give it a try. Thanks

 

[AliOop]

Todd, all of your soaps looks fantastic! Can't thank you enough for figuring this out and for sharing all your experiments.

 

[earlene]

For an hour or three, I worked on formulating a testing plan and it became so intricate, my mind needed diversion.

I feel a need to design a very stringent testing criteria with at least 3 variants of solutions, with controls to compare against, rigidly calculated & documented and so on and so forth. My gosh, you'd think I was planning on setting up protocols and procedure manuals and lab books and all that stuff. Ah well, it is a result of my training and previous professions. Anyway, I had to take a break and concentrate on something else.


I'll get back to it later tonight or tomorrow after my hair cut. Tonight I am planning on staying up until it snows so I still have a few hours. I want to introduce Kitty Baby to snow & it's only going to last a little while if it lasts at all.