High tallow/lard dual lye

[ackosel]

I haven't found complete answers to a couple questions I have about making dual lye soap.

My recipe is:
40% tallow
25% lard
20% olive oil
15% coconut oil
100% water replacement with frozen goat milk cubes
33% lye concentration
2% superfat
1 tsp. sugar PPO

Question 1. Would dual lye benefit this recipe in terms of ease of lather and overall quality to a noticeable degree? And does adding sugar to a dual lye soap have any benefits?

Question 2. When making a dual lye solution, do I:
1) make two separate lye solutions and add them together
2) mix the dry NaOH & KOH together before dissolving it in the milk
3) something else

 

[Mobjack Bay]

Would dual lye benefit this recipe in terms of ease of lather and overall quality to a noticeable degree? Based on chemistry alone, the soap will lather more easily, but quality is very subjective.

And does adding sugar to a dual lye soap have any benefits? The effects of KOH and sugar on lather should be additive.

The SMF calculator allows you to calculate the amounts of NaOH and KOH needed for a dual lye recipe. The Soapy Stuff website gives details on how to calculate and use dual lye. https://classicbells.com/soap/dualLye.asp

You can’t directly assess how dual lye affects the quality of the soaps you make unless you give it a try, I made a round of dual lye soaps a few years ago and decided it wasn’t worth the extra effort for my recipe.

 

[ackosel]

Would dual lye benefit this recipe in terms of ease of lather and overall quality to a noticeable degree? Based on chemistry alone, the soap will lather more easily, but quality is very subjective.

And does adding sugar to a dual lye soap have any benefits? The effects of KOH and sugar on lather should be additive.

The SMF calculator allows you to calculate the amounts of NaOH and KOH needed for a dual lye recipe. The Soapy Stuff website gives details on how to calculate and use dual lye. https://classicbells.com/soap/dualLye.asp

You can’t directly assess how dual lye affects the quality of the soaps you make unless you give it a try, I made a round of dual lye soaps a few years ago and decided it wasn’t worth the extra effort for my recipe.

Thank you! I'll give dual lye a try and see how it works with my recipe. I gave my sister a bunch of soaps to try for Christmas and she was disappointed in the lather compared to what she had been using, Dr. Bronners or something. I'll see if dual lye makes a difference for her.

 

[Mobjack Bay]

Assuming that you’re not interested in fiddling with the fat percentages in the recipe, have you considered increasing the sugar? One tsp ppo is approximately 1% of tfw. I use 1.5% and have seen others using 2%. More sugar (or sorbitol) will help with the lather and is easier to use compared with dual lye.

 

[ackosel]

Assuming that you’re not interested in fiddling with the fat percentages in the recipe, have you considered increasing the sugar? One tsp ppo is approximately 1% of tfw. I use 1.5% and have seen others using 2%. More sugar (or sorbitol) will help with the lather and is easier to use compared with dual lye.

I'll try more sugar first. Thank you!

Do you (or anyone else) have a suggestion for tweaking the fat percentages in my soap recipe? I would like to maintain a significant amount of tallow/lard in my soap, but I am definitely not opposed to changing percentages to make a better soap! I'm happy to use 5% castor oil as well. In all honesty, I have spent a year trying to develop a nice recipe utilizing as many ingredients as I can produce or source locally (goat milk, tallow, lard, etc), and I have very little idea what a "good" soap recipe is. I don't understand much at all about fatty acids and how they behave, so I am all ears if anyone has suggestions!

 

[bookworm42]

I will say the best lathering soap I have is either a salt soap or my normal soap recipe with salt soap confetti pieces in it.
The salt soap on its own didn't last long and I wanted something longer lasting. It lathers like a dream. The salt soap I used had been cured for 5 months when I made my confetti batch with it.

 

[Mobjack Bay]

I like formulating based on fatty acids because it lets me produce recipes that behave in a fairly predictable way regardless of the fats I use. Most of my recipes have fatty acid profiles that are not far from the profile for your recipe, except that I rarely go above 31% on palmitic + stearic (p+s). Through much trial and error, I’ve found that it’s difficult to get a good lather from soap made with p+s greater than 31% (and low SF) in my hard water, even with dual lye. I’ve also learned that I like the mid-layer of foamy lather my recipes produce when the oleic fatty acid is 40-45%.

If the goal is to stay as close as possible to your current recipe, I would increase the sugar first and then consider slightly lowering the palmitic and stearic (p+s) fatty acids. For example, if you replace the olive oil with high oleic sunflower oil, the palmitic and stearic in your recipe will drop from 35% to 33% and the oleic will increase from 41% to 44%. Or you could use more olive oil. That “softening” isn’t going to produce big fluffy bubbles, but it will yield more of the soft, foamy middle layer of lather. Castor makes soap more soluble and also supports bubble structure. If you decide to try it, consider adding it at the expense of some of the tallow or lard rather than the olive oil. That would bring the p+s down, e.g. from 35% to 33% if you add castor at 5% and take 5% from the tallow.

 

[Ephemerella]

this was very helpful to me in understanding fatty acid qualities, and it's what I used to create my current recipe
https://www.modernsoapmaking.com/blog/the-most-popular-fatty-acid-profiles-in-soapmaking

 

[ackosel]

I like formulating based on fatty acids because it lets me produce recipes that behave in a fairly predictable way regardless of the fats I use. Most of my recipes have fatty acid profiles that are not far from the profile for your recipe, except that I rarely go above 31% on palmitic + stearic (p+s). Through much trial and error, I’ve found that it’s difficult to get a good lather from soap made with p+s greater than 31% (and low SF) in my hard water, even with dual lye. I’ve also learned that I like the mid-layer of foamy lather my recipes produce when the oleic fatty acid is 40-45%.

If the goal is to stay as close as possible to your current recipe, I would increase the sugar first and then consider slightly lowering the palmitic and stearic (p+s) fatty acids. For example, if you replace the olive oil with high oleic sunflower oil, the palmitic and stearic in your recipe will drop from 35% to 33% and the oleic will increase from 41% to 44%. Or you could use more olive oil. That “softening” isn’t going to produce big fluffy bubbles, but it will yield more of the soft, foamy middle layer of lather. Castor makes soap more soluble and also supports bubble structure. If you decide to try it, consider adding it at the expense of some of the tallow or lard rather than the olive oil. That would bring the p+s down, e.g. from 35% to 33% if you add castor at 5% and take 5% from the tallow.

Thank you so much! I will get to work right away and see how those changes work for me with my next batch. I would like to give you a gift to show how much I appreciate the time and effort you put into helping me, but all I have to give is mediocre soap, which I'm sure you don't want! So many, many thanks for your help!

 

[ackosel]

this was very helpful to me in understanding fatty acid qualities, and it's what I used to create my current recipe
https://www.modernsoapmaking.com/blog/the-most-popular-fatty-acid-profiles-in-soapmaking

Thank you very much for the resource. I am terrible at finding things I search for online, so this is a great help to me. I'll add it to my favorites so I can study it. Thank you!

 

[DeeAnna]

this was very helpful to me in understanding fatty acid qualities, and it's what I used to create my current recipe
https://www.modernsoapmaking.com/blog/the-most-popular-fatty-acid-profiles-in-soapmaking

I agree Kenna's article is well worth reading. Please also keep in mind that just knowing the trend that's popular doesn't mean that's the best type of soap. IMO many popular soap recipes are a bit low in the palmtic and stearic fatty acids.

I think this trend might be due to the fact that P and S are only included in Soapcalc's "hardness" and "creamy" numbers. I think that makes it easy to overlook the value of having enough P and S in a recipe.

In my opinion, P and S should also be included in any measure of mildness -- specifically the "conditioning" number in Soapcalc. If that happened, I think you'd see the most popular trend in soap recipes might look a little different.

Like @Mobjack Bay, the combined % of P and S in my recipes is typically around 30% give or take a percent or two. That seems to be a good balance for the soap I make. Too high and the soap doesn't lather well enough; too low and the soap doesn't last long enough.