high linolenic oil for superfat

[mistral]

Does anyone have any experience of using high Linolenic oils such as Flaxseed/Linseed or Pomegranate oils for superfatting a hot process soap. I understand oils high Linolenic oils cause DOS. But I'm thinking of using one of these at about 2% along with some other oils.

 

[BrewerGeorge]

Why?

 

[mistral]

Why?

What kind of response is that? Please elaborate, I'm here for advice. Thank you for taking the time to reply.

 

[jcandleattic]

What kind of response is that? Please elaborate, I'm here for advice. Thank you for taking the time to reply.

Knowing why you want to superfat with those type of oils will help get you better advice. Without knowing why you want to do it, we don't know what you are trying to achieve, so it's harder to advise you which oils to use.

 

[MorpheusPA]

I'm kinda with BrewerGeorge here...it does encourage DOS (at least most people say so), so there would be no reason to use it as a super fat, even though it won't stay that way.

All the salts will metathesize (called, unsurprisingly, salt metathesis), even after cooking and you'll end up with a proportion of your fats as super fat roughly equivalent to the percentage of fats in the total makeup of the recipe after a while.

That having been said, if you stringently avoid the use of linolenic (and linoleic just for good measure) acids in the rest of the oils, you could certainly use oils that contain a high percentage as long as they're used at low proportions in your mix. 2 to 3 percent of even 100% linolenic acid probably wouldn't cause a problem; I never ever go over 15% total linolenic, and I try to keep it well under 10.

If yours ends up at 5-6 between the added oils and the base oils used in the HP cook, that's highly unlikely to be an issue.

But again, don't expect your soap to act, over the long-term, as though your super fat were pure linseed or pomegranate. It won't and the fats are going to slowly react while other soap salts react out to fats.

 

[mistral]

I'm kinda with BrewerGeorge here...it does encourage DOS (at least most people say so), so there would be no reason to use it as a super fat, even though it won't stay that way.

All the salts will metathesize (called, unsurprisingly, salt metathesis), even after cooking and you'll end up with a proportion of your fats as super fat roughly equivalent to the percentage of fats in the total makeup of the recipe after a while.

That having been said, if you stringently avoid the use of linolenic (and linoleic just for good measure) acids in the rest of the oils, you could certainly use oils that contain a high percentage as long as they're used at low proportions in your mix. 2 to 3 percent of even 100% linolenic acid probably wouldn't cause a problem; I never ever go over 15% total linolenic, and I try to keep it well under 10.

If yours ends up at 5-6 between the added oils and the base oils used in the HP cook, that's highly unlikely to be an issue.

But again, don't expect your soap to act, over the long-term, as though your super fat were pure linseed or pomegranate. It won't and the fats are going to slowly react while other soap salts react out to fats.

Thank you so much for the reply! Now I have work to do, research and learn about salt metathesis, etc. I like how you said " (at least most people say so)" and that's what I gathered from searching on the forum, I couldn't find anything concrete.

So much more helpful than flippantly replying!

 

[MorpheusPA]

Thank you so much for the reply! Now I have work to do, research and learn about salt metathesis, etc. I like how you said " (at least most people say so)" and that's what I gathered from searching on the forum, I couldn't find anything concrete.

The only bar out of...lots and lots...that ever developed DOS was mostly palm, olive, and coconut. And it was only a tiny dot. As to whether I'm just lucky, I don't know.

However, I've always avoided linoleic and linolenic acids in my soaps because I've been told they cause a problem. Plus I dry on plastic since I know metals can cause issues.

Given the polyunsaturated nature of those, I don't doubt for a second that they're more likely to oxidize.

Honestly? I'd say do a small run of a pound or so and see what happens to it. Save a bar or two long-term. I've got three or four experiments on the drying racks or in storage at the moment.

My bet is that it works out just fine as long as the linoleic+linolenic in the final product is less than fifteen percent. Or you could use some ROE (rosemary oleoresin) to slow any possible decay reaction...if you happen to like the smell of rosemary!

 

[BrewerGeorge]

For the record, I was asking "Why" you wanted to use a high linolenic oil like that.

 

[The Efficacious Gentleman]

You've still not said what it is about these sorts of oils that makes you want them as SF, which will help a great deal. Even if it's only to share with the forum what it is that would be good about it.

 

[cherrycoke216]

Ok cool,guys! I was gonna jump in and say something to smooth the situation but fell asleep. (was reading through on my phone ) (was going to say I don't think BG mean something bad )
it's cool to have some guys around that you are not that sensitive and over think, since it is online chat that we can't see facial expressions. (I'm not pointing fingers, just describe it generally )

chillax

 

[Firestarter]

...
All the salts will metathesize (called, unsurprisingly, salt metathesis), even after cooking and you'll end up with a proportion of your fats as super fat roughly equivalent to the percentage of fats in the total makeup of the recipe after a while.
...

This is interesting. Are there any online references on this? TIA.

 

[psfred]

Think of it this way: Linseed oil, which has high amounts of triple unsaturated fatty acids, is used as wood finish. It will oxidize and polymerize into a waxy, water resistance gummy substance, and with the addition of some metal salts to speed up the oxidation and some filler, makes traditional varnish.

The very last thing you want in soap is something that oxidizes, it causes "dreaded orange spots" that stink and make the soap unusable (it still washes well, but smells like linseed oil finish).

There are other oils or fats that give good skin feel without risking your soap going rancid.

All that said, one or two percent probably wouldn't be any worse than using something like canola oil for part of the recipe. Keep the percentage of the polyunsaturated fatty acids less than 15% and you should be good.

I would definitely use distilled water for a soap of that recipe, and add either citric acid or EDTA to help prevent oxidation. I had a batch of soap go DOSy, it's NOT nice. Stinks something horrible, and it's the only bath soap I've made without EDTA. The rest all seem fine.

 

[cherrycoke216]

This is interesting. Are there any online references on this? TIA.

kevin Dunn' s Scientific soap making.
key word should be "mix of fatty acid and superfat" I guess. then you can see a part of preview of the said book on Google book.
I'm having an insomnia night now, and ate too much yesterday evening. (aka I'm not very alert and think very sharply now ) so you might try other keywords if I'm wrong. haha!