High but not 100% coconut oil

[Nikolye]

Hello- I have asked this before and read a lot of other threads on it, but it was never directly answered because it wasn't the important part of the question being asked in those threads.

i have made 100% coconut oil bars with 20% SF. People love them. Not my favorite. My skin drys out after to many uses. I like it as my cleansing gardeners/mechanics bar. However i'd like to add some things to make it a bit more nourishing for the coconut haters without taking out the coconut as i love the behavior.

I'd like to do like 75 coconut, 15 olive oil, 5 castor, 5 avocado with goat milk. Do you think a 15% superfat would be to much still? to soft a bar or to many oils left that may go rancid? more than 15?

So the question is: 100% coconut works with 20% superfat. but what about High coconut with low other oils? at what superfat?

cheers

 

[toxikon]

15% SF sounds good! Go for it!

 

[Millie]

I think this will come down to very different preferences for different individuals! Keep in mind that gardeners often have sensitive hands if they don't wear gloves. Contact dermatitis, dry cracked hands from clay soils, etc. Of course we have callouses and our hands may look tough

I can't help with the high CO soap (torture!)... my current gardener's soap is a regular bubbly bar and a soft nylon bristled brush.

All that said, go for it! It will probably work for most people. If you have someone in mind to give it to, have a regular soap as a backup plan

Edit: after a long day what popped out at me was CO and gardeners/mechanics. Is this for a regular bath bar? One way or another, good luck and let us know if you like it!

 

[zolveria]

i make 25 % sf coconut oil soap. i add aloe juice or some protein to the water to for moisture.
No one has complained about dryness. the actually cant get out the shower. the rheology effect of the soap on the skin is SILK and creamy.
tested recently start using black sea salt. and 1tbs ppo of oils is to hard of a soap..so going down to 1tsp. so i can unmold quicker.. THE ALOE makes all the difference. you can also add silk.. silk protien etc. or natural silk thread cut in tiny pieces. Do note that for some reason the black sea salt heat up my soap to much. compared to table salt. due to all the minerals.

 

[SunRiseArts]

I would say you don't know until you try! :mrgreen:

Please come back and let us know how they feel.

 

[CaraBou]

Nikoyle, have you been using salt in your 100% CO bars? You didn't say. But usually high CO bars do have salt, which acts as skin softener. It also kills bubbles, which is why high coconut is used. Your proposed recipe with 75% CO would be fine (I've done similar), but it also needs salt. I use about half as much salt as the total CO.

The other thing is, you might find salt bars (high CO) work best for short periods. In other words, keep another bar (with a different recipe) in the shower so you can give your skin some variety. Then you get the best of both worlds!

 

[The Efficacious Gentleman]

I made an 80% co bar that was supposed to be a salt bar. That had a 20% lye discount and it test okay already. I would consider keeping it at 20% SF with 75% co. It won't effect the lather that much, if at all

 

[BrewerGeorge]

i make 25 % sf coconut oil soap. i add aloe juice or some protein to the water to for moisture.
No one has complained about dryness. the actually cant get out the shower. the rheology effect of the soap on the skin is SILK and creamy.
tested recently start using black sea salt. and 1tbs ppo of oils is to hard of a soap..so going down to 1tsp. so i can unmold quicker.. THE ALOE makes all the difference. you can also add silk.. silk protien etc. or natural silk thread cut in tiny pieces. Do note that for some reason the black sea salt heat up my soap to much. compared to table salt. due to all the minerals.

What do you mean by black sea salt? The black colored stuff from Hawaii (which is actually just carbon and salt, BTW) or a mineral salt from the Black Sea, like Dead Sea salt?

 

[HowieRoll]

I use the following recipe for my coconut/salt bars, but have never tried it without the salt. The recipe is inspired from shunt2011, with slight modifications (see post #19 of THIS thread, where she generously shared her recipe):

80% Coconut Oil
10% Avocado Oil
10% Castor Oil

For liquid, I use enough water to mix with the NaOH, then the rest in coconut milk.

SF 17% (it will end up being higher due to coconut milk)

75% (of oil weight) Salt

I personally think they are great, with a lot of lather, they don't dry my skin out, and I get requests for them from friends. However, I also do as CaraBou suggests, and that is I keep a bar in the shower with at least one other non-salt/high coconut bar and don't use it everyday. I suppose I should, just to see if my skin wouldn't mind, but that would require me to only have one bar of soap in the shower and... wait, wha....? Seems like such a foreign concept to me now!

 

[Nikolye]

Thanks everyone! I think its worth a go. I was thinking gardeners bar or a "not every day bar." I hadn't considered salt in my coconut bars, I almost did it once but was deterred from the idea after lots of people on here told me i need to try it in individual molds first because they crack so easily and can be difficult to tell when you need to un-mold and cut. i only now just got a few muffin molds i could try it in. I never went back to the Idea tho.

I would like to try a salt bar. actually. I might try it both ways. but just not for this batch, i don't want to experiment that much for these soaps (however when i do i should try a simple salt bar recipe in my first go anyway, with 100% CO)

One of the reasons for the high coconut oil is that i have to a have a good amount of cured soap in a month, with mainly silicone loaf molds on hand my soap is taking 5 days to un-mold and its just not working. I had plenty of time, it just slipped away. so i thought of doing a couple High coconut bars too as they are mainly for farmers and i think a cleansing bar would go over well. I could shorten the silicone mold time time by a day, maybe two if i CPOP the soap, but its milk soap.
(i'm experimenting will all sorts of recipes and lowering water amounts to solve the week in the mold issue! recently started soaping at 2:1 water/lye to get them out quicker. but my last bar that had no hard oils like palm or tallow took nearly a week still. low tallow was a day shorter maybe? wondering if the weather is doing it to me!)

I've already got the long cure bars going, i just need a few that will still be steller in exactly 4 weeks. no 4-5 days in the mold shenanigans. These are my last couple batches i can do in order to get my 4 weeks cure time.

I've always used my custom wood loaf mold, it holds nearly 3 kgs of soap, giant bars tho.. not your standard. these silicone molds were such a huge deal because A. they made small bars for specialty soaps and guest bars B. i was yet to find anything here to line my wood mold with (no freezer paper and i hate all things one use plastic) the first 10 or so batches seemed awesome, came out in 2 days. I was so excited I ordered another mold and two more liners. It feels like the time in the mold is just getting longer. So i'm going back to basics with recipes and lowering water amounts using more hard oils when i use my silicone. Then i get a request for a bunch of milk soaps in 8 weeks. I lost a couple weeks mucking around with the silicone and sourcing more tallow and fresh goats milk. and finally found a good paper to line with, thank goodness, so i'm not at the mercy of my new silicone molds. Now i'm at the 4 and a bit week point and my last batch needs to come out in a day or two.

 

[dixiedragon]

My gardener's soap is just my standard recipe (lard, coconut, olive, sunflower, rice bran, castor) , 5% superfat, plus an exfoliant (I like coffee grounds) and tea tree EO to disinfect any small scratches.

 

[IrishLass]

Over the years I've made several variations on the theme of the original 100% coconut oil formula (all without salt, btw). Although I love the original, it melts away too fast, so I tweaked things by lowering the coconut anywhere from 70% to 80% and replacing the remaining %'s with stearic-rich butters. My favorite of all my tweaks turned out to be 70% Coconut oil and 30% mango butter with a 15% superfat.

In my salt bar (a totally different animal with a different skin feel and different lather performance), I use 100% CO with 100% coconut milk as my liquid, 25% salt ppo and a 13% superfat.


IrishLass

 

[Nikolye]

Over the years I've made several variations on the theme of the original 100% coconut oil formula (all without salt, btw). Although I love the original, it melts away too fast, so I tweaked things by lowering the coconut anywhere from 70% to 80% and replacing the remaining %'s with stearic-rich butters. My favorite of all my tweaks turned out to be 70% Coconut oil and 30% mango butter with a 15% superfat.

In my salt bar (a totally different animal with a different skin feel and different lather performance), I use 100% CO with 100% coconut milk as my liquid, 25% salt ppo and a 13% superfat.


IrishLass

Very helpful thank you. i hadn't thought of adding another butter, that seems like another defy the norm recipe entirely. Hmmmm, now i just need to decide if i want the castor/olive/avo or a butter!

 

[zolveria]

What do you mean by black sea salt? The black colored stuff from Hawaii (which is actually just carbon and salt, BTW) or a mineral salt from the Black Sea, like Dead Sea salt?

black charcoal salt. I find that when i use table salt. @ 1bsp ppo i dont get a crack BUT sea salt at that rate make my soap crack ..

 

[penelopejane]

Thanks everyone! I think its worth a go. I was thinking gardeners bar or a "not every day bar." I hadn't considered salt in my coconut bars.
I lost a couple weeks mucking around with the silicone and sourcing more tallow and fresh goats milk. and finally found a good paper to line with, thank goodness, so i'm not at the mercy of my new silicone molds.

Nikolye I have just gone through the same thing with heavy silicone liners in wooden molds making 5lbs - 7 lbs of soap. It took me over 10 ruined batches to perfect it. I make 100% OO soap and split method milk soap and can unmold them in 12-24 hours.

I CPOP them. I used to do it in the oven but the new molds won't fit in the oven so I use a heat pad - which is an old electric lap blanket.

If your molds don't fit in the oven put the molds on a towel on a heatpad (old electric blanket) on high (about 100*F or whatever temp it gets to after preheating while I make soap) and wrap the mold in both and cover the whole lot with a normal blanket for 1 hour. Then unwrap the elec blanket from around the mold and turn it down to low (68*F or 20*C) but leave it sitting on the flat heatpad and cover it with a towel and the normal blanket (I use a doona) for 12-18 hours then it is ready to cut.

I use 31% lye concentration.

I can't imagine using 100% CO soap without salt. More than 10% CO dries my skin out horribly.

I use 100% OO or high % CO and 50% salt in salt bars. I don't CPOP them it takes about 4-6 hrs for them to be ready to cutwhile they are still warm. Leave them longer and they will shatter.

 

[Nikolye]

hello again! (you can read the earlier comments but not absolutely necessary to help with this one) I'm coming back to this 75% coconut oil soap (no salt) as i was really liking it for awhile. Lost my notes and starting to re-trial it. 75% coconut, 12% olive oil, 8% avocado and 5% castor and i started with 18%SF with a charcoal pencil line, 2:1 water to lye, silicone loaf mold. batch #1 45c/113f left out uncovered on the bench top pencil line was to thick and bars split. it was hard to get out of the mold 32 hrs later so i took the super fat down to 15% for the next batch. batch #2 113f again, SF reduced to 15% left on bench top again, partial gel (ugh), pencil line getting better but still can break apart with a bit of force batch#3 reduced temp to 109f to avoid gel and popped in the fridge, partial gel again, lookes like stearic spots , def think it was too cold but still partial gel (ugh ugh) pencil line no goodwhere i tried to break the surface to avoid bars splitting. batch#4 Temp back up to force gel this time, 122f, insulated to fully gel, looked crap, air bubbles all through maybe from being to hot? first ones i've seen in the trials, dark gel did not suit the soap, Batch#5 I plan to try to go back to my first temp which was 113, this seemed to be hot enough to not have stearic spots but cool enough to not gel but pop it in the fridge as my first partial gelled batch was still at that temp. The first batch was almost perfect besides it being to soft and splitting in half, so i'm almost tempted to raise the superfat back up even tho i don't feel like this is the cause of my issues. The trials have become "i've gotten this far with this crazy recipe i can't quit now" type thing. stubborn. If i don't get it soon i'm going have to quit, maybe try a salt bar with no pencil line! ugh!!!!

 

[penelopejane]

hello again! (you can read the earlier comments but not absolutely necessary to help with this one) I'm coming back to this 75% coconut oil soap (no salt) as i was really liking it for awhile. Lost my notes and starting to re-trial it. 75% coconut, 12% olive oil, 8% avocado and 5% castor and i started with 18%SF with a charcoal pencil line, 2:1 water to lye, silicone loaf mold. batch #1 45c/113f left out uncovered on the bench top pencil line was to thick and bars split. it was hard to get out of the mold 32 hrs later so i took the super fat down to 15% for the next batch. batch #2 113f again, SF reduced to 15% left on bench top again, partial gel (ugh), pencil line getting better but still can break apart with a bit of force batch#3 reduced temp to 109f to avoid gel and popped in the fridge, partial gel again, lookes like stearic spots , def think it was too cold but still partial gel (ugh ugh) pencil line no good where i tried to break the surface to avoid bars splitting. batch#4 Temp back up to force gel this time, 122f, insulated to fully gel, looked crap, air bubbles all through maybe from being to hot? first ones i've seen in the trials, dark gel did not suit the soap, Batch#5 I plan to try to go back to my first temp which was 113, this seemed to be hot enough to not have stearic spots but cool enough to not gel but pop it in the fridge as my first partial gelled batch was still at that temp. The first batch was almost perfect besides it being to soft and splitting in half, so i'm almost tempted to raise the superfat back up even tho i don't feel like this is the cause of my issues. The trials have become "i've gotten this far with this crazy recipe i can't quit now" type thing. stubborn. If i don't get it soon i'm going have to quit, maybe try a salt bar with no bloody pencil line! ugh!!!!

If I were you I’d go back to the 113*F, don’t put it in the fridge and use a really really thin pencil line so it definitely wets up before you put the next layer on. Also don’t let it go right to the sides.

 

[amd]

With only a stearic value of 3 for the first recipe, would it really be stearic spots you're seeing? Curious if any amount of stearic causes spots or only high stearic amounts... and what a high stearic amount would be.

I'm also not following what the problems are. Are you trying to get it to unmold/cut without breaking? Are you trying to avoid gel? Are you trying to get a good pencil line? A few ideas based on my suggested questions...
- unmold/cut sooner. High coconut soaps get hard fast, they usually don't need days to setup. I have a 100% laundry soap that I have to cut within an hour if I want bars. Changing your superfat lower won't affect unmolding with a high CO soap.
- Avoiding gel might not be possible with a high CO soap as CO tends to heat up soap batter. You might be better off to encourage it so that it gels all the way through if you don't like the gel ring in the center.
- A good pencil line starts with using less colorant than you really think you need. I use the guideline "put on enough that you can see the color and still see the batter underneath". I occasionally spray my line before I place the next portion of batter so that the mica is wet and gives the batter something to "stick" to.

 

[Nikolye]

With only a stearic value of 3 for the first recipe, would it really be stearic spots you're seeing? Curious if any amount of stearic causes spots or only high stearic amounts... and what a high stearic amount would be.

I'm also not following what the problems are. Are you trying to get it to unmold/cut without breaking? Are you trying to avoid gel? Are you trying to get a good pencil line? A few ideas based on my suggested questions...
- unmold/cut sooner. High coconut soaps get hard fast, they usually don't need days to setup. I have a 100% laundry soap that I have to cut within an hour if I want bars. Changing your superfat lower won't affect unmolding with a high CO soap.
- Avoiding gel might not be possible with a high CO soap as CO tends to heat up soap batter. You might be better off to encourage it so that it gels all the way through if you don't like the gel ring in the center.
- A good pencil line starts with using less colorant than you really think you need. I use the guideline "put on enough that you can see the color and still see the batter underneath". I occasionally spray my line before I place the next portion of batter so that the mica is wet and gives the batter something to "stick" to.

Hello-
-Yes I'm trying to avoid gel but it partially gels every time.
-I've been soaping mainly at 45c/115f for this recipe, trying in and out of the fridge but both end up partially gelled.
- I have forced gel and it looks so waxy and the colors of the bar are just not so pretty anymore
-I'm cutting after 7 hours and it cuts nicely
-I have used the tips in a few of these posts to get my pencil line down and its been working out nicely.
-Today im testing (again) what would happen if i soap very very low 32c/90f (lower then last time) and pop it in the fridge. I read somewhere that not all people soap high temps with high coconut oil.
-Next change i will do what penelopejane says above and let it be. I've done this before but it partially gelled, however now i have reduced the oils in the mold so i'll try again.
-last try i'm willing to do is encourage gel again, i didn't like the waxy look last time but I'm pretty close to giving up this recipe. Its a good home recipe but I needed a good looking cleanser that stayed naturally white and still didn't dry you out. Because its so white i have lots of opportunities to make it look awesome. So i really wanted it to work, not to mention its cheaper for me to make because i buy coconut oil in 17kg buckets. But i don't want the gel circle messing up my design and oddly enough soaping at 40% lye solution it takes ages to trace so its great for swirls.

What temp does everyone else soap high coconut oil bars at? It seems high temps are common.

 

[DeeAnna]

45 C (115 F) is too warm when making this type of soap -- not sure where you're getting the idea that this temp is "pretty common." In fact, I don't soap that warm even for soaps with almost no coconut. The initial temp of my soap batter temp (the temp of the combined fats and lye) is usually around 95-105 F and that's plenty hot enough for the high-lard soap I normally make.

For a high coconut oil soap, I'd shoot for a soap batter temp of 90-100 F (32-38 C). Try warming your fats only enough to get them fully melted and clear and be sure to let your lye solution cool to room temp or just mildly warm to the palm of the hand.

Use more water. You mention using 2:1 water:lye ratio, and that's likely not enough for high coconut soap to slow down the rate of heating. I would try a 28% lye concentration (2.57 water:lye ratio). There is a trade-off in that higher-water soap has a lower gel temperature, but higher-water soap tends to saponify slower. You're trying to find a sweet spot that works for your particular soaping style. You may have to experiment to see what works best if you're determined to prevent gel in this type of soap.

You can put your soap in the refrigerator, but from my reading here on SMF, I know that is not a sure-fire solution for preventing gel. A another option that may work better is to put the mold up in the air on a cookie cooling rack or several soup cans (anything that allows air to flow underneath the mold) and put a fan blowing on the mold.

And if all else fails, you might try to like the look of gelled soap. In my experience, it isn't necessary to force gel with this type of soap. High coconut soap is usually pretty good about gelling all on its own.