Help~

[Anette]

I am a total newbie! I made a batch of CP soap, I unmolded it too soon and it has tiny surface cracks...it is pretty and smells great. Then I did a batch of HP in the crock pot. I overcooked it, but I mashed it into a mold, it became solid, smells good and looks ok...Lathers GREAT and my hubby loves the smell...it is manly. lol.

I am determined to make Christmas Soap for gifts!! I have tried 2 batches of CPOP...both have crumbled during slicing. I have watched numerous videos on this process. Some say 170 for 5 mins, shut off the oven, recheck, recheck, recheck...I have yet to see any gel occur in my batches of CPOP. They have both Zapped after cooking. I even left them in the shut-off oven overnight as recommended by a few ppl. UGH....so frustrated. (Some cook for 2 to 3 hours???) 1st CPOP is used silicone molds, soap was sweaty when it came out. 2nd batch I used a parchment paper lining in a heavy cardboard mold I made..it was NOT sweaty, but still hard. I did have a small amount of poly 80 in that batch.

My colors have ALL morphed, I read to add Poly 80 to mica so it wouldn't morph, still did. Actually, my bright red turned to a beautiful deep plum, which I was OK with. I used a different shade of green and it again turned to a brownish gold...I was okay with that too..gold and plum=pretty I thought.

So now I have 4 lbs of not useable soap. Can I rebatch this? If so, any advice since it is zappy? It has 33% water. I used peppermint FO, I acted naughtily and caused the soap to thicken really fast. And as I stated earlier it does have a small amount of Poly 80.

 

[toxikon]

Welcome Anette! Take a deeeep breath. :mrgreen:

I'll try to address a few things here.

1. Because all lye-based soap requires a minimum of a 4 week cure, you don't have time left to make any for this Christmas this year. We only have 2 weeks before Christmas, and that's not gonna cut it! It needs that full curing time to become mild, long-lasting, good soap. 2-week old soap is likely to be skin-stripping, soft and short-lived. Not a good first impression for the loved ones you share it with!

2. It sounds like overall, you've been using too much heat.

For cold process: melted oils should be between 80-120F and lye solution should be between 70-120F. I personally mix them both at around 100F. Depends on your oil choice, mainly. A recipe high in hard and brittle oils/butters should be mixed closer to 120F.
CPOP: The only purpose of CPOP is to ensure gel. If your soaps already gel fine without the oven, then there's no need to do it. Most of us turn our oven on the lowest setting (my lowest is 170F), then turn it off and place the soap inside for a couple hours. You're not actively cooking your soap, you're just providing a little more warmth to encourage gel.
Hot process: This isn't my area of expertise, so I'll let other people chime in in ideal temperatures and cooking times.

3. Where are you buying your micas? PS80 won't do anything to prevent morphing. You'll wanna buy them from reputable soapmaking sources like Nurture (my fave), WholesaleSuppliesPlus, Brambleberry, etc.

 

[earlene]

Welcome, Anette. It's really too late to make soap from scratch for Christmas presents this year because you have to allow for at least a 4 week cure. And besides that, if you've never made soap before and know your recipe and used/tested the soap for it's lifetime, you just don't have the experience to be giving it away to people just yet.

I know it is tempting to give soap as gifts right from the start. We've all been there. But until you know for sure that your soap doesn't go bad after you made it, and you can only know that if you hold onto it during the cure and as it ages, it's just not good practice to give it away. Each recipe requires it's own unique cure time, and it makes no difference the method you use to make it, be it CP or HP. No soap is ready to give away immediately, unless you try some Melt & Pour, because it's already soap when you buy it, you can actually give it away sooner.

So in the meantime, to help troubleshoot your particular soap, more detail would help us figure out how to help you solve the problems:

Your exact recipe in weights, including NaOH, distilled water (or whatever liquid you may have used), all additives (including where you got them, manufacturer, etc.), temperatures used, methodology, etc. The more detail the better.

 

[Anette]

Hi Toxicon & Earlene for your prompt replies,

My recipe is a 60/40 blend of hard and soft oils. I read that was best.
I used the following:

100g palm oil,
100g shea butter,
200g coconut oil and
200g olive oil,
1 T sodium lactate.

I used 38% water in the CP & HP batch.

CP contained distilled water. NO poly 80.
The CP had a purple colorant (that was fine) and white with Lilac FO. This also had a 5% superfat which I mixed with my colorant and FO. Temp was 110. NO cooking involved and it is curing.

The HP I used aloe juice, NO poly 80. The colorant was a shade of teal and did lighten some but that was it. Used white and natural as well. Mixed the FO/EO's in sesame oil superfat. I cannot remember the oils, there at home and I am at work. Sorry!!

The 2 batches I attempted to gel faster were similar recipes other than the had 33% water and whatever soapcalc stated to use for lye. Same recipe as above.

The micas came from China, I ordered it before I knew of WSP, Essential Depot, BB or any of the many others. I will be changing to their micas. Or natural colorants. Can one use Turmeric powder or clove we cook with? or cinnamon we put on toast?

I hope I covered all you asked. I sooo thank you!!!!

Also, I have 2; 2lb blocks of M&P, so I will use that for gifts.

 

[earlene]

The culprit may be too much Sodium Lactate for your recipe size. Take a look at this post on How to Use SL: https://www.soapqueen.com/bramble-berry-news/sunday-night-spotlight-sodium-lactate/

The recommendation is 1 tsp per pounds of oil. You almost tripled that amount in your recipe.

But also your micas from an unknown source. China is a big place, and of course I am unfamiliar with reputable soap suppliers in China, so cannot address that.

Yes, you can use turmeric. I have done and depending on how much you use and your base recipe, you can create a lightish yellow to a dark mustard color in your soap. As for other natural colorants that work well and seem to have no side-effect issues like some spices can have on the skin, you could try cocoa powder; it makes your soap cocoa brown, depending on how much of it you use. There are many sources that talk about using natural colorants. I believe you will find a few listings in the Beginners section that you may find useful. Relle links several such posts in the second post in this thread: http://www.soapmakingforum.com/showthread.php?t=65825

Regarding CPOP,

EDIT: I re-read your first post and you do mention your CPOP process. I'd say it's a combo of too much SL with perhaps too much heat. BUT, if they still zap, then perhaps you have a measuring issue?

Without your NaOH amounts, it's hard to say. But perhaps your scale is not as accurate as it needs to be? Your soap should not be zapping after gel with a 5% SF.

My next recommendation would be to calibrate your scale.

 

[DeeAnna]

The weight of water and of NaOH, please? If you want the best help, we need to see the actual weights of ALL ingredients you used, not just the fat weights and the method by which you derived the NaOH or water. It's important to see what you actually put in the soap pot, not how you derived the recipe.

Polysorbate (PS) is a solubilizer, emulsifier, and synthetic detergent. I have never seen it recommended for stabilizing color in soap and I can't imagine why someone would think that it has that kind of effect. The only thing I can find that combines micas and PS is when making bath bombs -- using some PS helps prevent a ring of color in the tub. But that use doesn't have anything to do with making CP or HP soap. Can you provide the source that gives this recommendation?

If your soap is crumbling when you cut it, then you need to explain how you are cutting it. And how long do you wait before cutting?

 

[Anette]

Hello everyone,
I have been out for a bit, had an eye injury. I know this will sound terrible, but I have such a small unorganized area to work in that I cannot say for sure now which exact recipe I used...:cry: (embarrassed) I did calculate another recipe...

I believe this will make a firm cleansing bar that has bubbles...

4.8-pound batch
38% water/ lye 28.237% water : lye ratio is: 2.5415:1
water 1.824 lb
lye 0.718 lb
oils 4.8 lbs
fo/eo 0.150 lb or 2.40 oz

coconut oil 76* 30%
castor oil 10%
olive oil 20%
palm oil 25%
shea butter15%

sodium lactate 0.8 oz to warm lye water--120 degrees

No superfat. I feel when I mix micas I need to spoon out oil from the container and not add more above the recipe, is this correct?
What do you suggest for the cure time? 5 weeks? This will be a CP soap.
Thank you all~~~~so appreciate your help, time and patience~~~

 

[jewels621]

I ran this through soapcalc, and while it will make a nice bar of soap, I feel like a 7.5lb batch might be quite large for an untested recipe. That amount of coconut oil is a little high and would dry out my skin in a heartbeat. I'd also lower the castor oil to 5%. I'm also a little confused by the 0% SF. Is there a reason why? Just curious. I only used 0% in my laundry soap. For me, it would be too lightly scented, as well. 2.4 oz in that much soap won't go very far if you like a medium scented bar.

Also, one of the best gifts you can give yourself (and anyone you plan to share your soap with) is to take copious note for each and every batch. Every single time. No exceptions. I can't stress this enough.

I'd scale this down to a 1 or 2 pound batch to see if it's worth making a bigger batch. There's nothing worse than being stuck with that much soap that you may not like in the end.

Let us know how it goes, though! And we like pictures so please do share!

 

[Kittish]

I know this will sound terrible, but I have such a small unorganized area to work in that I cannot say for sure now which exact recipe I used...:cry:

This bit is kind of a problem. If you're too unorganized, it's possible to skip adding ingredients, or double up on them, or add just plain the wrong amount.

What I've done right from my first batch is print out the recipe I'm planning to make from my lye calculator. I hang it at eye level where I work with a clothespin on the cabinet handle that's right there. As I measure out my ingredients, I write down on the sheet exactly how much I just weighed out next to that ingredient on my list. Then I move that ingredient out of my work space (de-stage to pretty much any handily available flat surface that I don't need for making soap). I measure out my water and lye last, and while my oils are warming and lye solution cooling I put away all my de-staged materials (including at this point my scale). This leaves me as much room as possible for mixing the soap batter and splitting it for coloring and fiddling around with whatever sort of design I'm trying for that batch.

My recipe sheet also includes notes regarding colorants and fragrance used, as well as any observations of acceleration, ricing, seizing etc,and gets dated and put into my notebook when I'm done making the batch. I like to name each batch to help me keep straight which is what (and make it easier for other people to say "I really liked <batch name> but didn't like the smell" or what have you. Once I cut I'll take at least one picture to add to the thumbnail page that also goes into my notebook every dozen batches or so. Good records are essential for identifying potential problems, especially weeks or even months down the road and also, if you wind up making the perfect batch of soap you'll have at least a good chance of being able to do it again.

 

[DeeAnna]

I think you need to include a small superfat in your recipes. Even experienced soapers generally don't do zero superfat for bath soap -- some superfat is used as insurance against measurement errors and variability in one's ingredients. It's far better to have a modest amount of excess fat in your soap than too much NaOH.

You only need a small amount of oil for the colorants, so it's not a good idea to expect the oil in the colorants to be enough for the superfat if that is your train of thought. If you like, you can remove some of the oil from the main blend of fats to mix with your colorants, so all of the oil is accounted for by your recipe.

I also agree with all the points that Jewels and Kittish have made. Cut down the batch size. It is far better to make several small batches than one big one at this point in your game. Build your experience and good work habits by repetition.

Make a worksheet and check off each ingredient as you use it and record each weight as you go. If you're not doing this, it's really important to start this practice and keep at it. It is way, way too easy to mis-measure or forget ingredients when making soap without using a worksheet.

You haven't said how you cut your soap, but if you're using a knife, that may be your problem. Use a bench scraper (dough cutter) or wire cheese cutter or something with a flat, not tapered cutter to cut the soap. And don't wait too long before cutting -- you want the soap to feel like firm cheddar cheese for best results. Not so soft like cream cheese. And not so hard like parmesan.

A high percentage of some fats (tallow and some of the butters) or an excess of NaOH can make the soap unusually brittle. The solution for the choice of fats is to cut sooner rather than later. Sometimes if you miss the timing, you can gently warm the soap in the oven to soften it enough to minimize the shattering. There is no good solution for a brittle soap from too much NaOH except to do better next time.

 

[cmzaha]

Welcome to the forum, there is a lot of good information and help here. ^^^What Kittish says above. It is possible at times to miss something in an organized soaping area let alone a disorganized. Your cooked soap should not zap and if it is I would think some mis-measurement is going on. You never mentioned how much lye was used in the first recipe, or do you not know. With a long cure of a few months, anywhere from 2-6 months, the zappy soap may straighten itself out. Even though I am a low superfatter I do not recommend it for someone just starting out, you should go with a least the default, in soap calc, of 5% this usually gives enough room for any measuring errors. With the first recipe 30% coconut oil is going to be to harsh for me at a 5% superfat, if you did not superfat it is going to be pretty stripping. Don't get me wrong some like high CO. As advised stick to 1-2 lb batches measuring your ingredients in grams and lbs. At the very least measure in ounces. **Keep Notes**

 

[Anette]

Thank you all for your words of wisdom!
I will greatly reduce batch size. I have a wavy metal slicer and a flat one.
I did print the cards from Soapcalc. I will make notes. I will change the oils per your suggestions and add superfat. I will repost after I get it put together.

SoapCalc © Recipe Name: Soap #5

Total oil weight 1 lb

Water as percent of oil weight 38.00 %
Super Fat/Discount 5 %
Lye Concentration 26.330 %
Water: Lye Ratio 2.7980:1
Sat: Unsat Ratio 44: 56
Iodine 57
INS 144
Fragrance Ratio 0.5
Fragrance Weight 0.50 oz

Pounds Ounces Grams
Water 0.380 6.0 172.36
Lye - NaOH 0.136 2.17 61.60
Oils 1.000 16.00 453.59
Fragrance 0.031 0.50 14.18

Soap weight before CP cure or HP cook More info:
1.547 24.75 701.73

# √ Oil/Fat % Pounds Ounces Grams
1 Castor Oil 5.00 0.050 0.80 22.68
2 Coconut Oil, 76 deg 15.00 0.150 2.40 68.04
3 Olive Oil 25.00 0.250 4.00 113.40
4 Palm Oil 35.00 0.350 5.60 158.76
5 Shea Butter 20.00 0.200 3.20 90.72
Totals 100.00 1.000 16.00 453.59

Soap Bar Quality Range Your Recipe
Hardness 29 - 54 43
Cleansing 12 - 22 10 doesn't seem very cleansing...
Conditioning 44 - 69 55
Bubbly 14 - 46 15 doesn't seem very bubbly?
Creamy 16 - 48 37
Iodine 41 - 70 57
INS 136 - 165 144
Lauric 7
Myristic 3
Palmitic 21
Stearic 11
Ricinoleic 5
Oleic 42
Linoleic 8
Linolenic 0

Additives Notes

1 teaspoon Sodium Lactate

The soap cutter I ordered came with a flat and crinkle cutter.
I am unsure how to calc the super-fat. Is it 5% of my total oils? (16oz?)
Do I mix my mica, fragrance, and super-fat together?
I have Grapeseed oil, Argan oil, Safflower oil, & Apricot oil's.

 

[Kittish]

Your superfat is already figured in that recipe, just follow it as given, take your notes, and you should do fine.

You only need a tablespoon or less of oil to mix colorants in, which even in a small batch (I like 500g oil weight batches, makes about 4 bars of soap- should be about what you get out of this batch) it'll only effect your superfat percentage by maybe 1 or 2%, not enough to cause any significant difference. Unless you're trying to use 5 or 6 colors which is pretty ambitious. So whether you take from your main oils or add a little extra is entirely up to you. I usually use a bit extra olive or rice bran oil to mix my colorants.

The numbers that SoapCalc and Soapee gives you regarding hardness, cleansing, and so on are kind of misleading. Don't rely on them too much. As an example of what I mean by misleading, try entering a 100% olive oil soap and see how those numbers look. If we all soaped based on those, no one would EVER make castile soap, and that one's been around for a couple thousand years.

The cleansing and bubbly numbers on most of the batches I've made are right around where yours are for the recipe above. My cured soaps lather up if you just smile at them, pretty much, and do a lovely job of cleaning without leaving my skin feeling all papery and dry.

Fragrance a lot of people like to mix into their oils before adding lye. This helps you get a nice, even distribution of fragrance. The only exception would be using one that's known to be naughty, causing heavy acceleration or ricing or some other trouble. Floral and spicy scents seem to be the worst misbehavers. Color you can add to your batter whenever before it goes into your mold.

I highly, highly recommend you go through DeeAnna's tutorials and articles that she has linked in her signature. There's lots and lots of really helpful information in the articles she's written and posted there, including in depth explanations of what those numbers really mean, and how they're derived.

 

[DeeAnna]

You do not also add a separate superfat to a soap recipe. Once you set the superfat at 5% and enter the weights of a given group of fats, that superfat is already included in that recipe. The weight of the NaOH is calculated to give you a 5% superfat for those specific fats. If you add even more fat in addition to what's in the Soapcalc recipe, then the superfat will be something higher yet.

If you are using a cold process method to make your soap, just add all of the fats called for in the recipe and make the soap. The idea that you can add fat at trace so it remains the superfat is a myth. At trace, the saponification reaction is just getting started, so there is a lot of lye still waiting to react with the fat. This lye will react with whatever fat it wants to react with, including fat added at trace.

If you are making hot process soap, then there's a little more reason to believe you can add fat at the end of the cook and have be the superfat. In that case, you create the same recipe as you do for CP soap, just keep back some of the fat that's in the recipe to be that superfat. If you want to have the superfat be grapeseed, for example, then you need to include the weight of the grapeseed in the original recipe. Then just add it at the end.

Most people add the mica and fragrance to the main fats before the lye is added, assuming you want the entire batch of soap as one color and one scent. This works for HP and CP methods.

Last point I want to make --

Your lye concentration is very low at 26%. This much water may very likely cause your soap to be overly soft and possibly even separate in the mold. I see you are using "water as % of oils" setting to calculate the water and that is what is getting you in trouble with too much water.

I recommend switching to lye concentration or water:lye ratio and forgetting about water as % of oils. Set the lye concentration to your choice of 30% to 33%. If you want to use water:lye ratio rather than lye concentration, 30% is equivalent to a 2.3 ratio and 33% is equivalent to a 2.0 ratio. Many soapers use 33% lye concentration (2.0 water:lye ratio) for most of their recipes and get good results.

 

[Anette]

Thank you Kittish and DeeAnna, thank you for the clarification on the superfat issue. So, I am not sure how to change the lye and water around in Soapcalc. I never adjusted it, thought it was preset. I will look at it again. I remember reading about Lye being 33%. Sorry some of these are short and quick. (I am at work). I will go to your site and read your info DeeAnna.
Again, thank you!

I seen where to manually add Lye % and put it at 33%. Now is this a good combo of oils? and if so, I will do a CP tonight. How long do you suggest it sit in the mold? And then cure time still 4-6 wks?

 

[Kittish]

I seen where to manually add Lye % and put it at 33%. Now is this a good combo of oils? and if so, I will do a CP tonight. How long do you suggest it sit in the mold? And then cure time still 4-6 wks?

Looks fine to me. I'm a big fan of shea butter in soap, I use it in all of the ones I make so far. How long it sits in the mold depends on how quick the soap firms up. Probably only take 12 hours or so for yours to be firm enough to cut. Check it every few hours, see if it's soft enough to easily dent with a finger. If it dents easily (think sticking your finger in cold cream cheese), it needs to sit a while longer. If you have to press a bit to make a dent (block of cheddar cheese), it's probably ready to come out of the mold.

Yep, 4-6 week cure time.

 

[Anette]

YAY!!!!! I will give it my best shot tonight... fingers crossed and I'll be praying the entire time!!

I'll take pictures of my 1st CP and HP (the one I overcooked, I think).

Oh and does anyone use a hand mixer for soap? even with just one arm? or big kitchen aid styles?

 

[jewels621]

Good advice from all above, and I think you are on the right track now. I, personally (and I think most of us do) use a stick blender (aka an immersion blender) as it quickly brings your batter to trace. Depending on the FO used, and what swirl I'm doing, it may only take several quick bursts to bring it to emulsion, and then I'll use a whisk or a spatula to add my colors. Most swirls require a very fluid, slow moving batter, and the more you stick blend (often referred to as SB on this sight), the faster your batter will thicken to the point where some swirls are nearly impossible. Make sure the stick blender you buy has a metal shaft.....some batters heat up enough to melt a plastic shaft. There's a huge learning curve to finding the perfect fluidity with any soap recipe....don't get frustrated. We've all been there. And remember....Less Is More....and Patience is a Virtue. These two things are probably the hardest things I've had to learn. As new soapers we instinctively want to do everything right now. I spent years working to find the one recipe that works for me, and then moved on to design challenges. You'll get there. I can tell because you are receptive to coaching from people who know, and I can feel the eager fire of the addiction through my screen. Soap away, my dear, and come back with all your questions. And pictures! Did I mention we like pictures?

 

[Anette]

Thank you jewels621, I have always been creative and artsy. So this is right up my ally. I am also a full time school nurse and I own a horse stable. I love to be busy....and I want to be clean without a bunch of chemicals and I want my animals to be clean too.
I have a nice stainless stick blender. While I'm praying this next batch works I'll definitely ask for some patience too. Lol.
I just got home. After I come in in snap shots of what I've made as well.
I cannot tell you how great it is to have so much help/advice. I do want to get it right, and I Will! I am very determined.
Thank you all again.

 

[penelopejane]

Thank you jewels621, I have always been creative and artsy. So this is right up my ally. I am also a full time school nurse and I own a horse stable. I love to be busy....and I want to be clean without a bunch of chemicals and I want my animals to be clean too.
I have a nice stainless stick blender. While I'm praying this next batch works I'll definitely ask for some patience too. Lol.
I just got home. After I come in in snap shots of what I've made as well.
I cannot tell you how great it is to have so much help/advice. I do want to get it right, and I Will! I am very determined.
Thank you all again.

Jewels is right about finding emulsion.
It’s important and took me ages.
Saponista posted this fantastic video which is worth watching over and over again.
https://youtu.be/39pLHKMtN6o