I routinely use a dab of liquid soap paste or 0.5 oz grated soap to kick start trace in my household liquid soaps. Works a charm. I use glycerin to speed trace in bar soap. I use SBM (not advanced) or Soapee.com for a calculator.
Help with LS
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Yes, I agree with your whole post and didn't mean to get overly passionate about it. Forgive me if anything came off wrong.
On a technical note, people sometimes don't appreciate that we are flying blind when it comes to how much caustic to use. Our lye calculators do the same math Failor did. All we can really say about setting a 0% superfat or thereabouts is that it works, which is a good point.
We aren't really doing anything more precise though. In the transparent soap book she was aiming for 0% superfat and her numbers agree with Soapcalc.
I made the first batch of LS using 0.5oz of grated handmade bar soap, I didn’t want to go higher with CO. I used the recipe that Susie suggested CO 16 oz, KOH 4.54 oz, Water 13.61 oz, 25% lye concentration. The whole process went really fast, no more than 30 min. and I was done. No zapping after one hour, the sb was taffy. I diluted it using half of its weight water, it wasn’t as thick as I thought, it was very easy to dilute. I washed some of my dishes with it; it cleans very well; however it leaves slightly some residue probably because the grated soap was a bar made of OO and CO. I am not happy with the residue on the dishes so I am more eager now to go with DeeAnna’s Suggestions to use 1/3 water and 2/3 glycerin for the next batch, I’ll leave the rest of my CO LS that I made today for washing whites.
Susie, is there a specific grated bars that you use to kick start trace in your LS? Have you ever got any residue on your dishes?
Susie, is there a specific grated bars that you use to kick start trace in your LS? Have you ever got any residue on your dishes?
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Residue ... as in grease not being fully removed? Or soap scum? Or ???
It's very similar to what I got when I tried plain grated bar of soap dissolved with water from the bloggers who used to claim that it worked great for them. I tried that before using NaOH to make my own bars of soap.
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I hear that you have seen this before, but I still don't know what specifically it is that you are seeing. Can you describe what it is in terms of words like greasy film, streaks, white coating, or ????
I had some 100% CO 0% SF bars I use as stain sticks that I use. I also use other 100% CO 0% SF liquid soap paste for the same purpose. It just kicks trace into gear without stickblending for a long time. This batch may be the batch you save to start other batches.
I am with DeeAnna, though, you should not see residue. Any possibility of a pic?
I am with DeeAnna, though, you should not see residue. Any possibility of a pic?
It's like light coating. I'll give it more time then try it again. The diluted portion in the jar looks clear now after three hours.
Looks like we were posting at the same time. I am trying to attach the pictures from my phone, it's not working so far. I'll try something else.
Looks like we were posting at the same time. I am trying to attach the pictures from my phone, it's not working so far. I'll try something else.
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I've seen soap scum residue when using lye soap to wash dishes and my water softener is low on salt. It's especially obvious on translucent plastic containers as a white film that doesn't feel greasy and sticks tenaciously to the plastic. It is created when any lye soap, whether bar or liquid, reacts with "hard water" minerals in tap water. The scum is insoluble calcium and magnesium soaps that form that stubborn white film. Solution is to use soft water. A chelator such as citrate or EDTA can help a lot too. Without more info, it's hard to say if this is your problem, but it's one possibility.
I can't help. I have never lived with hard water.
I have only used tetrasodium EDTA when making my bar and liquid soaps. I only have a small bit of personal experience with using citrate.
General threads on citric acid use in soap:
http://www.soapmakingforum.com/showthread.php?t=53035
http://www.soapmakingforum.com/showthread.php?t=53330
I have added some homemade citrate solution (made per Galaxy's method, below) to diluted LS, and I can't say that was a success. The citrate turned the diluted soap milky white and "broke" the soap. Commercial citrate may give different results, because citrate can have several chemical forms, and it's likely that homemade citrate is slightly different than commercial. My thought is homemade citrate may work better if added to the soap batter when making LS paste or bar soap. Here's more discussion on this: http://www.soapmakingforum.com/showthread.php?t=56643&page=2
Galaxy's thread on making citrate at home from baking soda and citric acid: http://www.soapmakingforum.com/showthread.php?t=55723
General threads on citric acid use in soap:
http://www.soapmakingforum.com/showthread.php?t=53035
http://www.soapmakingforum.com/showthread.php?t=53330
I have added some homemade citrate solution (made per Galaxy's method, below) to diluted LS, and I can't say that was a success. The citrate turned the diluted soap milky white and "broke" the soap. Commercial citrate may give different results, because citrate can have several chemical forms, and it's likely that homemade citrate is slightly different than commercial. My thought is homemade citrate may work better if added to the soap batter when making LS paste or bar soap. Here's more discussion on this: http://www.soapmakingforum.com/showthread.php?t=56643&page=2
Galaxy's thread on making citrate at home from baking soda and citric acid: http://www.soapmakingforum.com/showthread.php?t=55723
I use a 39% Tetrasodium EDTA solution when I dilute portions of my paste. I just add the EDTA solution to the dilution water. The rate at which I use it equals out to being .5% of the weight of my finished/diluted liquid soap.
It doesn't eliminate 100% of the scum, but it does cut it down quite a bit.
IrishLass
It doesn't eliminate 100% of the scum, but it does cut it down quite a bit.
IrishLass
Thank you DeeAnna. I am not sure now if the problem was a scum or not. I had what I call the tearful water look on my stainless steel and glass utensils; I didn’t use it on any plastic tools. They had that same look as they dried out. When I use the syndet detergent my utensils usually look clear after rinsing them, then I air dry them and they look clear, neat with no water tears. I think what will determine whether it was a scum or something else is using the right chelator agent/ agents that work for the specific metals in my water.
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I use a 39% Tetrasodium EDTA solution when I dilute portions of my paste. I just add the EDTA solution to the dilution water. The rate at which I use it equals out to being .5% of the weight of my finished/diluted liquid soap.
It doesn't eliminate 100% of the scum, but it does cut it down quite a bit.
IrishLass
Thank you IL. I think this will be the ideal solution for the rest of my paste. I have Tetrasodium EDTA on my list to order already. Would you like sharing how you get the solution of 39%, please?
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Thank you for the links. What do you mean by “broke” the soap?
I didn’t find any info about using c/a for dilution; instead I found information about just adding it to the batch oils. In this case do I need to take the step of adding the extra amount of lye that is going to be neutralized by c/a?
As an experiment, I tried to add c/a to the water at the dilution stage. I diluted 1 part of water to 3.6 parts of paste, I got a very creamy texture with a white lovely pearl color and it worked great for my bathtubs and sinks but not for the dishes. It helped a little with the scum but not as much. I uploaded the pic.
I have a question regarding using your method of 1/3 water and 2/3 glycerin, does the water brings the temperature to the lye high enough that I don’t have to use heat when adding the glycerin?
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pictures
The first one is the diluted LS one hour after I made the paste. The second pic was taken a couple of hours later. The third pic was taken 24 hours later. Today I have the top layer thinner with lighter color of the liquid at the bottom. I diluted 2 parts of paste for 1 part of water, and then last night I was experimenting, I got a thicker texture by diluting 1 part of water to 3.6 parts of paste, it was perfect to my liking.
I don’t know why I got the 2 layers, is that because of the dilution rate?
The first one is the diluted LS one hour after I made the paste. The second pic was taken a couple of hours later. The third pic was taken 24 hours later. Today I have the top layer thinner with lighter color of the liquid at the bottom. I diluted 2 parts of paste for 1 part of water, and then last night I was experimenting, I got a thicker texture by diluting 1 part of water to 3.6 parts of paste, it was perfect to my liking.
I don’t know why I got the 2 layers, is that because of the dilution rate?
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The easiest thing I've found to help me calculate how much water is needed to turn my EDTA powder into a 39% solution is to go to the RiverCity calculator here:http://rivercitysoaps.com/dwcp/watercalc.php
Once there, what I do is this: In the 'Weight of Lye' box, I type in how much powdered Tetrasodium EDTA I wish to dilute. Next, in the 'Desired Solution Strength' box, I type in 39, and then I click on 'Compute'. The amount of water needed for my solution will then show up in the 'Water Needed" box.
I normally make enough of a master-batch solution to fill a 12 oz. HDPE bottle with a flip-top for easy dispensing, which lasts me through several batches of soap.
Edited to add in case I misunderstood your question and you were wondering why 39%, specifically. That's the magic amount of water needed to keep the EDTA in a dissolved state without it precipitating out of suspension.
IrishLass
DeeAnna, I have just realized that I forgot to mention that I'll be using the technique of adding the s/a to the sb as mentioned in the threads above in another
LS experiment. I was so far trying to experiment with the paste that I have already made. Thank you for taking the time and effort to help me.
I will try it when I get my order of EDTA. Everything you mentioned is helpful. Thank you for sharing.The easiest thing I've found to help me calculate how much water is needed to turn my EDTA powder into a 39% solution is to go to the RiverCity calculator here:http://rivercitysoaps.com/dwcp/watercalc.php
Once there, what I do is this: In the 'Weight of Lye' box, I type in how much powdered Tetrasodium EDTA I wish to dilute. Next, in the 'Desired Solution Strength' box, I type in 39, and then I click on 'Compute'. The amount of water needed for my solution will then show up in the 'Water Needed" box.
I normally make enough of a master-batch solution to fill a 12 oz. HDPE bottle with a flip-top for easy dispensing, which lasts me through several batches of soap.
Edited to add in case I misunderstood your question and you were wondering why 39%, specifically. That's the magic amount of water needed to keep the EDTA in a dissolved state without it precipitating out of suspension.
IrishLass
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