help me troubleshoot my hot mess HP?

[JBot]

I do HP almost exclusively, so I do have a little bit of experience, and I've never had an uglier batch than the one I did yesterday. I wouldn't even mind the "waste" of time and materials if I could just LEARN something from it, but it's hard to do that when I'm not sure what went wrong.

The batch before this one was beautifully smooth, probably my best ever. This one is a hideous, lumpy, crumbly mess riddled with air pockets. So the issue is either my recipe or my procedure, and I'm hoping to get some help figuring out which factor(s) might be to blame.

It seems to be a purely cosmetic issue; when I tested the soap it had an amazing lather, and it's no more drying than any other soap this fresh. Might actually be LESS drying than other young soaps. But I'd really like my it to look good, too, and there must be a way to have both.

I followed my standard procedure: prep, blend, color, bake, add SF oil, bake a few more minutes (to bring the SF oil up to the same temp and allow it to permeate the batter thoroughly), add FO, swirl, mold. But the same procedure won't necessarily yield the same results if there are issues along the way.

I work as quickly as I can once the soap is out of the oven, knowing that it cools/dries/hardens quickly. The appearance of the soap suggests that it wasn't fluid enough when it went into the mold. Like it was hardening before I was done. But again, I'm not sure why.

Temperature: was it over-cooked? I was working with a slightly smaller batter volume that last time, using the same oven temp and cooking time. But although this batter volume was smaller than the last batch, it also wasn't the smallest batch I've ever made using the same procedure.

Was it under-cooked? While I haven't tested this specifically, it often seems to me that hotter, longer-cooked soap is a little bit more fluid. (Unless you burn it to a crisp, of course.) I actually had to cook this one a little bit longer than usual, because it wasn't fully gelled after 45 minutes, which was very strange. I'm not sure that's ever happened before.

Was I just too slow to get it in the mold, despite my best efforts? It certainly didn't seem like it was taking me any longer than usual to scent and swirl, but it can be hard to judge that if you're not timing yourself.

I've sometimes wondered if I'd be better off adding both the superfat and the FO shortly before the end of the cook instead of after the cook. I'm guessing that adding room-temperature liquids to hot soap causes the batter to cool/harden faster, which shortens the window for getting it in the mold. But! It also provides additional liquids right at the end, which might thin it out, and make it more fluid prior to molding? Lately I've been splitting the difference: adding the SF shortly before the end of the cook, and adding the FO after the cook. I've thought about pre-warming the SF and/or FO and adding them after the cook, but then I'd have to be careful about the flashpoint of the FO.

Recipe: both the amazing soap and the heinous soap used a 33% lye/water concentration, which is my standard, and 3% sodium lactate PPO, which is also my standard. The FO amounts were different, because the batches were different sizes, but they were the same percentage relative to the batch. (I used the same mold, the same pots, and the same oven temp.)

The beautiful soap: 23% CO, 31.9% PO, 32.9% OO, 4.5% castor oil, 4.5% avocado butter, and 3.2% sweet almond oil (the post-cook superfat).

The ugly soap: 15.9% CO, 9.9% PKO, 30.8% PO, 30.8% OO, 4.5% castor oil, 4.5% avocado butter, and 3.7% meadowfoam oil (the post-cook superfat). This was my first time using PKO, which makes me suspicious, but I hadn't heard that PKO could cause post-cook problems. I did read that it can speed trace, but that's a different issue. I didn't observe any differences in time reaching trace.

I can't think of any other recipe or procedural factors that may have played a role, so if you think of something, ask away!

Sorry about the length of the post, and thank you to anybody who has ideas/suggestions/comments.

--Jane--

 

[IrishLass]

The 2 things that stick out to me as being possible culprits are the smaller size of your batch and the longer cook time. Both of those together could have caused enough of your water to evaporate out and give you less of a smooth pour. At least that's my theory. Hopefully more will chime in soon.

IrishLass

 

[JBot]

The 2 things that stick out to me as being possible culprits are the smaller size of your batch and the longer cook time. Both of those together could have caused enough of your water to evaporate out and give you less of a smooth pour. At least that's my theory. Hopefully more will chime in soon.

IrishLass

Ah, I knew I would forget to mention something! I weighed my pots at each interval. Pot #1 lost 0.25 oz during the cook; pot #2 lost 0.10 oz; and pot #3 lost 0.05 oz. Doesn't sound like much, considering the total batch weight was 120 oz. The respective amounts that the pots lost seems reasonable to me, since pot #1 had the most batter and pots #2 and #3 had the "accent" colors.

This is another issue I've considered: the impact of cooking different amounts at the same temp and for the same amount of time. But I do this all the time, and I haven't had these problems before, so it can't be too much of an issue. (I think?!)

 

[The Efficacious Gentleman]

It could be the combination of those factors. I've not soaped with pko so I don't know how it behaves compared with co - it might have a higher melting point and so will make a batch solidify faster. That, coupled with the longer cook time (I would say cook each batch as long as needed and not more - so this WILL vary from batch to batch) might have been enough. There was also a different superfat which might well play differently - different oils can be slicker or slimier or more sticky than another oil, this might also have played a part.

It might be that when you make this exact same batch again, use a tad more water. That might help out.

One thing I would not do is add the superfat before the cook is over. I most certainly would not add the scent before the cook is over - it removes one of the main benefits of doing hp in the first place!

 

[JBot]

It could be the combination of those factors. I've not soaped with pko so I don't know how it behaves compared with co - it might have a higher melting point and so will make a batch solidify faster. That, coupled with the longer cook time (I would say cook each batch as long as needed and not more - so this WILL vary from batch to batch) might have been enough. There was also a different superfat which might well play differently - different oils can be slicker or slimier or more sticky than another oil, this might also have played a part.

It might be that when you make this exact same batch again, use a tad more water. That might help out.

One thing I would not do is add the superfat before the cook is over. I most certainly would not add the scent before the cook is over - it removes one of the main benefits of doing hp in the first place!

I appreciate the input! I will try using a bit more water. I've been reluctant to do so because of the planing/warping issues I've been dealing with, but if my new mold continues to perform like I think it will, then hopefully I won't be doing any planing anyway.

The melting point of PKO is higher than CO. I used just under 10% in my recipe; is that enough to have an impact, do you think? A cursory google search shows PKO has a melting point of about 102F. I wonder how fast the batter can cool from 170-ish to 102F? Think it's possible it could have dropped that far before I got it in the mold? I'll have to measure the temp next time. I try to get it from oven to mold in less than 5 minutes.

Your recommendation that I not add SF or FO before the cook is over: do you mean while it's still zappy? Or were you thinking of the heat? I would never add SF or FO before the soap is zap-less, because you're absolutely right, it would defeat a primary benefit of HP. I was thinking I might add it as soon as it's not zapping, but then let it cook a bit more so the oils permeate the batter more evenly, and so they come up to the same temp as the batter before I start molding it. My theory is that the room-temperature post-cook additives are making the batter cool/harden faster.

You said each batch should be cooked as long as needed and no more. I imagine excessive over-cooking would lead to dried-out soap. What do you think would happen as a result of moderate or minor over-cooking

Thanks,

Jane

 

[The Efficacious Gentleman]

Slightly dried out soap don't forget that hp soap is not always uniform - as soon as the last part is just cooked enough, those that were cooked enough earlier are now cooked longer than needed. Is that enough to cause issues? Maybe not, but when you are even overcooking that last bit, the parts that were ready first have now been rather overcooked.

As I said, this with the water and pko might well have been factors that built up together to cause an issue - each one alone might not have a major impact, but when their powers are combined..........

As for adding thing during a cook, remember that hp means that we can choose our superfat, but also use less scent. If you add scent and then cook longer, you then cook off some of the scent, so you need to use more to get the same result.

Eta - do you use sodium lactate?

 

[JBot]

Yes on the sodium lactate! Terrific stuff. I use it at 3% of oil weight.

I've read that heat can affect the FO and/or cause it to "flash off." It's on my (endless!) list of things to research. I must admit I'm skeptical about the flashing off thing. As I understand it, a flash point is a temperature at which a fluid will ignite if it's exposed to an open flame. But as soon as you mix it into the soap, it's not the same. At that point it's a small percentage of a larger mixture with a different (if any) flash point. So as long as the FO doesn't actually catch on fire, does heating it really affect the strength of the scent?

I know that exposure to lye can absolutely diminish the strength of a FO. I always thought THAT was what allowed us to use less FO in HP: adding it after there's no free lye remaining in the batter. I've read the advice that we should wait for the batter to cool below the flash point before adding the FO. I never do that, and my scents always come out fine; sometimes too strong, actually.

With one of my HP batches, I put it back in the oven at 170F for another 40 minutes after adding the FO and putting it in the mold. I wanted to see if it made a difference in terms of the soap warping after it was planed (it didn't). Afterward, I realized I'd done it with one my lowest flash point FOs. Interestingly, that soap came out with an extremely strong scent, even though I used my standard "dose."

On the other hand, when I did my first (and so far only) rebatch, I had the soap in the oven at about 200F for 2-3 hours. The fragrance was pretty dead by the end. But I was rebatching months-old scraps and shavings in the hopes of putting them to good use. I wonder what it would be like with fresher soap? I was amused when that lumpy gray rebatch turned out to be my best-performing soap yet, but that's a whole other post.

All that said, I think your advice to not cook the soap beyond what's necessary or after adding the FO is probably good. I'm still hung up on the idea of adding cold FO to hot soap, though. How much do you think I could warm the FO (120F, maybe?) before the heat started to diminish it?

Thanks,

Jane

 

[SoapyWater]

Do you have pictures you can post? I think I may know your issue but I have to see the soap first

 

[SoapyWater]

Lets see OHP is usually set oven at 250'.

I always used full recommended liquid for OHP and CPHP soap. I liked it liquid because I was able pour the soap in the mold.

Air Pockets - Are you pounding your soap down enough? If not it will cause air pockets in the soap. Add soap to the bottom of the mold and pound the mold a few times and keep doing this as you add soap to the mold.

Crumbling - Usually its because it was over cooked or missing an oil from the recipe. Have you went over your recipe again to see if there were any errors? Smaller the batch the smaller the error margin is for soap.

Did the air pockets have oil oozing or just empty and dry?

 

[JBot]

Lets see OHP is usually set oven at 250'.

I always used full recommended liquid for OHP and CPHP soap. I liked it liquid because I was able pour the soap in the mold.

Air Pockets - Are you pounding your soap down enough? If not it will cause air pockets in the soap. Add soap to the bottom of the mold and pound the mold a few times and keep doing this as you add soap to the mold.

Crumbling - Usually its because it was over cooked or missing an oil from the recipe. Have you went over your recipe again to see if there were any errors? Smaller the batch the smaller the error margin is for soap.

Did the air pockets have oil oozing or just empty and dry?

Why do you set the oven at 250F? What are the benefits vs. a slightly lower temp? Many of the tutorials I've read suggest 170F, so I thought I was already cooking it pretty hot at 195F.

Yes, I slam the mold on the counter while I'm pouring the soap. I also use tools to tamp it down after it's all in the mold. Usually it works great. This time it didn't.

While it is possible that the soap was over-cooked, I'm not sure that's the problem, since I stopped cooking it shortly after it was fully gelled. I am certain I didn't leave anything out of the recipe, in part because I weighed it right before I put it in the oven. It was 120 ounces, which is not a very small batch.

The air pockets are empty and dry. If they were oozing, that would be a whole different issue!

 

[SoapyWater]

I found (for me) electric stove I set at 250 and gas stove I set at 180. But I do check my soap often or the famous volcano will take place.

Hense how I destroyed a stove lol... whew boy that was interesting indeed.

A higher temp cooks a bit faster lower temp is just steady. I dont leave it in the over very long at all. About 15 minutes maybe vrs 30 or so minutes... If its starting to look like vaseline shiny texture I take it out.

 

[JBot]

I found (for me) electric stove I set at 250 and gas stove I set at 180. But I do check my soap often or the famous volcano will take place.

Hense how I destroyed a stove lol... whew boy that was interesting indeed.

A higher temp cooks a bit faster lower temp is just steady. I dont leave it in the over very long at all. About 15 minutes maybe vrs 30 or so minutes... If its starting to look like vaseline shiny texture I take it out.

I have a gas oven, so that makes more sense.

I've been wondering about the volcano thing. I've never experienced it myself, and I wasn't sure it could happen in the oven the way it happens in a crock pot. All of the crock pot HP tutorials I've watched/read say that you have to stir the soap down periodically as it bubbles and creeps up the sides.

I have NEVER seen my soap do that in the oven; not even close. It does not bubble, creep, or even move, not one bit. It sits smoothly in the pot, looking exactly like CP, except that it's rapidly gelling from the outside in rather than from the inside out. It doesn't stop looking like CP until I stir it up when I remove it from the oven.