Help!!! 1st attempt on 100% olive pomace oil LS

[nanzclaire]

Hi there,

I just mixed two hours straight with blender and whisk on and off for my 100% olive pomace LS soap.


It's still separated !!! It's in low in crockpot !

Here is my recipe

1000ml olive oil pomace
200g KoH
600g distilled water

What's wrong and what to do ?!!

 

[lsg]

How old is your KoH? The lye could have gone bad. Also, I ran your recipe through SoapCalc and it called for 380 grams of water. It looks like you may have added too much water. Turn the crockpot up on high and try to cook off the extra water, stick blending every now and then to try and get a cohesive paste.

 

[kchaystack]

You should also measure your oil by weight, not by volume. I am not sure of the density of OO, but it might not be a 1ml = 1 gram conversion

 

[Susie]

I ran it through Soapee.com using 3:1 KOH/H2O, your recipe is close enough. I am going to second Isg's question of how old the KOH is.

Is that a stickblender you are mixing it with?

Also, if you have some hand made soap around, I would grate 0.5 oz into that to help kick trace in just to see what happens.

ETA-Good catch, kchaystack, I completely missed that.

 

[green soap]

I have also tried to make a pure castile LS, but my LS using 100% pomace never gave acceptable results. Besides a really tough time getting the paste to behave as it should, I was not able to dilute it to a liquid enough consistency to use. I was super thick, and if I diluted it to a usable consistency, the unscented ones got bacterial/fungal contamination. Did not happen to the ones where I used antiseptic EOs, however, neither were good to use. Just to clarify, I split the batch into two portions and added EOs to only one half. I had to end up discarding the half without the EOs, I think I used it for garden applications against aphids and such.

I solved this issue by using at least 20% CO (25% even better) and this gives me pretty good LS. 25% CO and 75% Pomace OO gives me a great consistency, gentle enough but also bubbly and cleansing enough.

I have wondered if this problem is the reason why 100% olive oil liquid castile is not available commercially. It just seems too hard to make, and the resulting LS not that great really.

 

[green soap]

I should clarify I had been making LS (with some CO) for a couple of years before I attempted the 100% OO fiasco, so I did know what to expect.

I have never read anyone's experience here attempting a 'true' liquid soap castile. It is counter intuitive that using OO only would make such an incredibly thick liquid soap. Thick enough to make is unusable.

Have any of the experienced LS maker have had similar (or different) experiences? I am curious now, since I have never seen this mentioned here, at least until this post, and the OP has not even tried to dilute it yet.

As far as advice for the OP on what to do with your paste: make a smaller amount of 100% CO LS and mix it into what you have. Just about any proportion of OO and CO works out OK, depending on the cleaning factor you need and how much dilution you are going for.

 

[lsg]

You should also measure your oil by weight, not by volume. I am not sure of the density of OO, but it might not be a 1ml = 1 gram conversion

I missed that, kchaystack is right, always use weight measurements.

 

[DeeAnna]

"...It is counter intuitive that using OO only would make such an incredibly thick liquid soap...."

I don't think it's counterintuitive at all. Castile bar soap is well known for making its infamous "slime" or "snot". It's the oleic acid soap in castile that causes the bar soap to form a gooey gel over a wide range of water content. This oleic acid soap in a LS castile does the same thing -- it forms a gooey thick gel over a wide range of water content.

When you add a modest amount of another type of soap -- your coconut oil soap for example -- you cut the goo factor down enough so you can get a decent thickness when the soap is concentrated enough to do some good.

If you go to the other extreme and eliminate all or most of the oleic acid in the recipe, you'll end up with a LS that is fairly thin even when fairly concentrated.

ETA: But if I'm following the OP's question, the problem is not about diluting a finished paste -- the question is about getting the batter to saponify in the first place.

 

[kchaystack]

I did a search, the density for OO is averaged at .93 g/ml.

The problem is that can vary alot from batch to batch of OO, so you are looking at between 910 g to 950 g as the probable weight.

Now we do not know where the OP found the lye amount for this recipe - but assuming (yeah I know - bad habit) they used a calculator, and put in 1000 g - this would lead to lye heavy soap.

So I am betting it's bad lye - or an error measuring the lye.

 

[nanzclaire]

Hey guys! Thanks for the responses! I neglected the time difference. In the meantime I remembered that Mixing is the key, so I kept on mixing and turned low and high regularly depending on how the paste reacts!

Then it turned out to that pretty gel in the photo! I took this just now and it's about 20hours after !

So to response back : I mistyped my weight in Oil, I used the Gram system and its in 1001gram I measured at the time! So that's not the reason.

I bought the KoH recently and I didn't get to ask the supplier yet about the age of it. I will look it up! But I did use the Bramble berry soap cal with pre-set 10% lye excess for the impurity of the KoH normally ! Mine is only 85% pure! -,-

And the water amount was suggested on the calculation as its 60% of the oil weight. Which I learnt from soap cal that it's best to do 38% of the oils weight. Can someone please advise on this matter for me ? Should use how much % in lye water solution in soap ( hard bar and liquid respectively!) ?


I got another worry as its all Olive Oil Pomace , so it's very oleic ! Would it not be good if I want to use it in formula of Face Cleanser ?

And reading another post here, would it mould fast because it's all 100% olive pomace ? If so, do I need to preserve the paste too or just the finished liquid soap?

Thanks again and very thankful to be in this helpful community! Btw, I am from Hong Kong bet you most from US or Europe here !

Xx

 

[Susie]

I routinely use the 3:1 H2O/KOH ratio for liquid soap. It turns out much better paste, IMHO. I use Soapee.com lye calculator for liquid soap, you can set it for that ratio, and it will save your recipes.

That's some lovely paste there!

Did you zap test it yet? You need to zap test before diluting.

I don't use preservatives as I do not sell my soap. However, you add the preservative to the diluted soap. And OO liquid soap gets treated the same as the others for preservative use. It is no worse nor better than any other liquid soap about molding.

 

[green soap]

Nanzclaire, hello from the other side of the world and welcome to this forum.

I use 80% water weight, I think 60% would be OK too, 38% would probably be too low.

Just like you, I found it took forever to get the 'paste' consistency.

My observation of the soap discoloring - getting mold or other nasties - only happened after I diluted it a second time, trying to get a manageable and usable liquid (rather than a snot like mess and yes, I used KOH). If you use it with just a first dilution, it should be OK. I never had to use a preservative in a liquid soap, that was a single incident for me, as I had always some % of CO.

I wanted a more dilute soap to use in dish washer bottles. Perhaps in your case you are better off using the paste directly? some folks in this forum do it this way.

Let us know how it goes, perhaps you will find a way to make usable 100% OO LS!

 

[nanzclaire]

Thanks Greensoap and Sussie!

So basically I have no clue about the zap test but I did try to test it out yesterday! I tested it and I felt nothing (no electric feeling or zap..) but please enlighten me if I make a mistake in understanding what's a zap test!

For the OO Ls now, I am still unsure what to do with it as I initially wanted to transform it to a face cleanser instead of using surfactants to create one! Any ideas on that? Like if I dilute it straight to my face wash recipe ?

Xx

 

[green soap]

Thanks Greensoap and Sussie!

So basically I have no clue about the zap test but I did try to test it out yesterday! I tested it and I felt nothing (no electric feeling or zap..) but please enlighten me if I make a mistake in understanding what's a zap test!

For the OO Ls now, I am still unsure what to do with it as I initially wanted to transform it to a face cleanser instead of using surfactants to create one! Any ideas on that? Like if I dilute it straight to my face wash recipe ?

Xx

No zap so you are good to go on the dilution. We can't give you more advice since you do not say what else is in your face wash recipe. If I was in your situation, I would reserve the paste (it will keep almost indefinitely) and dilute a small part of it, check how it works in your application. If you like it and it works for you, dilute the rest!

Also, my suggestion to mix it with CO LS (potassium cocoate) might not be a good one for face washing. Most people use milder soaps (not coconut oil soap) for face washing, myself included. So just try it with a small amount and see how you like it.

 

[green soap]

"...It is counter intuitive that using OO only would make such an incredibly thick liquid soap...."

I don't think it's counterintuitive at all. Castile bar soap is well known for making its infamous "slime" or "snot". It's the oleic acid soap in castile that causes the bar soap to form a gooey gel over a wide range of water content. This oleic acid soap in a LS castile does the same thing -- it forms a gooey thick gel over a wide range of water content.

When you add a modest amount of another type of soap -- your coconut oil soap for example -- you cut the goo factor down enough so you can get a decent thickness when the soap is concentrated enough to do some good.

If you go to the other extreme and eliminate all or most of the oleic acid in the recipe, you'll end up with a LS that is fairly thin even when fairly concentrated.

ETA: But if I'm following the OP's question, the problem is not about diluting a finished paste -- the question is about getting the batter to saponify in the first place.

Thanks for this perspective. When I make solid bar soap using 100% OO I use a much larger lye concentrations than when I make a 100% CO soap, yet, I can unmold the CO one much faster, and it cures in 3-4 weeks, rather than several months for the 100% OO ones. This is why I was quite surprised at the LS behaviour, finding it counter intuitive. Your explanation makes sense though, thank you. 100% CO LS does dilute very easily indeed. It also saponifies much more easily so you get paste a whole lot faster.

 

[nanzclaire]

Hey guys , again thanks for yours responses!

I am diluting the soap ( just a bit for trial)! As mentioned, I am trying to make for face wash, and I am really curious how to lower the pH down to 5.5! Anyone can advise?

I do understand the chemistry in citric acid to the soap as it causes separation and it did happened! I also read one post said can just add the superfat into the separated diluted soap and sit over night and will all blend together again. Anyone has experienced in this?

And I do see commercial brands that has ph5.5 liquid face wash. If we couldn't make it with liquid soap, is it with surfactants?

Thanks!

 

[The Efficacious Gentleman]

Aye, you'll never get soap down to 5.5, or even to 7 - it is an alkali, nothing can change that. If you want less than 8, you'll need to look non-soap products and not lye-based ones.

 

[galaxyMLP]

Yes, those commercial face washes are not soap based. They are detergent based. As TEG said, soap must be alkaline and can not be 7 or less. It will separate (as you've experienced) if you add to much acid.

Adding more superfat wont help at that point, it will make it worse. You can technically add more lye back to make it more basic and make it come together again but, you will have to monitor the pH with each addition of base or calculate how much acid you added and then calculate the correct amount of base to re-neutralize it. I wouldn't recommend either though unless you are very comfortable with math.

 

[IrishLass]

And I do see commercial brands that has ph5.5 liquid face wash. If we couldn't make it with liquid soap, is it with surfactants?

Thanks!

Yep- those commercial liquid face washes aren't really 'soap' (an alkali salt of a fatty acid), but are detergent-based instead.

Lye-based soap, being naturally alkaline, will separate and lose it's ability to cleanse if you try to lower the pH to neutral.

RE: adding more superfat to a diluted soap that has separated to bring it together again....... If the separation was caused by trying to lower the pH to neutral, then it's as Galaxy said- adding more fat to it would make things worse. The best course of action in that case would be to add more lye solution to it, but you'd have to go about it very carefully.


IrishLass