Hello from St Louis, MO (area..)

[BigJimmyW13]

I'm not curious enough to continue this discussion outside the group. I think the knowledge could benefit others and don't see the harm in trying to dupe something you love while adding your own tweaks. Anyway my last piece of advice before I peace out of this thread is to review Susan Barclay's blog. She is a wealth of info regarding product formulation and a go-to source of mine. http://swiftcraftymonkey.blogspot.com/2011/04/duplicating-products-introduction.html

Actually, I have no problem with furthering this discussion openly, but I am excessively cautious to name the product openly. Maybe because I'm semi new to the business of reproducing other products without actually infringing on them.

 

[lenarenee]

Ah. Good clue. I think I know what you mean.

If you're willing to take the time to learn, this website has tons of info on how to make bath and body products.
http://swiftcraftymonkey.blogspot.com/ You may have to hit a local library for dependable internet.

 

[The Efficacious Gentleman]

Yeah, you're going to have to name it or bear with a lot of contradicting information.

"More oily than a product which I won't name" is a hard ask. Unless we know how oily the original product is, how can we suggest what to do to make it more oily?

The fact that you paid people to do this and you're being so cagey makes me suspect that you want to sell this product, which stops me from helping because if you want to sell a product then you should be experienced enough in this area to know how to tweak the recipe - if you don't know how something works, you shouldn't sell it. Regardless of what the product is.

 

[shunt2011]

I'm going to have to agree with the others. You seem to want members to create a recipe for you so you can go off to sell it with little work on your part. You really need to do the research on why a product contains each ingredient. Your vagueness is going to turn many away.

 

[BigJimmyW13]

I'm going to have to agree with the others. You seem to want members to create a recipe for you so you can go off to sell it with little work on your part. You really need to do the research on why a product contains each ingredient. Your vagueness is going to turn many away.

I know why the product contains each ingredient. It's a matter of when I attempt to recreate it, it doesn't go so smoothly.. I'm new to soap making, not new to most of the ingredients that go into it. On the vagueness, once again. I am cautious of naming it, but as doriettefarm stated, "you'd think that lush would come after us".

 

[doriettefarm]

If that's the exact ingredient list and it's a creamy liquid, my best guess is that it's a liquid soap made with KOH, CO, OO & jojoba oils. The liquids used would be water, aloe vera & glycerin. The additional oils that aren't saponified should be the superfat. The guar gum is a thickener probably added after dilution of the soap paste along with the essential oils.

Check out IrishLass' method of making liquid soap, I think it would be a good read for you. http://www.soapmakingforum.com/showthread.php?t=57974

The shampoo recipes on Susan's blog are all detergent based so I don't think that's what you're attempting to recreate.

ETA: I think your chemists may be going the wrong direction using NaOH instead of KOH. Did they give you a reason for doing so?

 

[BigJimmyW13]

If that's the exact ingredient list and it's a creamy liquid, my best guess is that it's a liquid soap made with KOH, CO, OO & jojoba oils. The liquids used would be water, aloe vera & glycerin. The additional oils that aren't saponified should be the superfat. The guar gum is a thickener probably added after dilution of the soap paste along with the essential oils.

Check out IrishLass' method of making liquid soap, I think it would be a good read for you. http://www.soapmakingforum.com/showthread.php?t=57974

The shampoo recipes on Susan's blog are all detergent based so I don't think that's what you're attempting to recreate.

ETA: I think your chemists may be going the wrong direction using NaOH instead of KOH. Did they give you a reason for doing so?

I sent him a sample of the original product and that's what he decided "based on what it looks like and feels like". Definitely not going the detergent based route. The book I started reading recently was talking about making a paste first and then diluting it down. I will have to read a bit further in that chapter. Here's the recipe that he sent me in better detail:

 

[doriettefarm]

Cool, thanks for posting the details it really does help. I've never tried to make a liquid soap with a NaOH solution and think most folks here that have tried it were not happy with the results. Pretty sure I remember comments that the outcome was a gloppy, snotty mess. Was your result anything like that?

I have used a combo lye solution (more KOH than NaOH) to make cream soap and shaving soap. In my experience KOH is the only way to go for a liquid soap.

I do have a question about the original product since I've never used it and you mentioned wanting a more oily feel. Does the unsaponified oil separate from the soapy portion? I guess what I'm getting at is do you have to shake it before using? IrishLass' method of superfatting after the cook requires PS80 to keep the superfat from separating out. So this is where I'm a little puzzled by the original ingredient list.

I would consider your Phase C the superfatting stage but your chemist used mainly glycerin instead of oils. That could also be a reason the end result doesn't feel anything like the original.

 

[BigJimmyW13]

Cool, thanks for posting the details it really does help. I've never tried to make a liquid soap with a NaOH solution and think most folks here that have tried it were not happy with the results. Pretty sure I remember comments that the outcome was a gloppy, snotty mess. Was your result anything like that?

I have used a combo lye solution (more KOH than NaOH) to make cream soap and shaving soap. In my experience KOH is the only way to go for a liquid soap.

I do have a question about the original product since I've never used it and you mentioned wanting a more oily feel. Does the unsaponified oil separate from the soapy portion? I guess what I'm getting at is do you have to shake it before using? IrishLass' method of superfatting after the cook requires PS80 to keep the superfat from separating out. So this is where I'm a little puzzled by the original ingredient list.

I would consider your Phase C the superfatting stage but your chemist used mainly glycerin instead of oils. That could also be a reason the end result doesn't feel anything like the original.

The first attempt resulted in an oily glop, yes. I assumed I overcooked it so I re-attempted it and ended up with a mixture that separated almost immediately. Those are the 2 results I have achieved with this recipe. One way or the other. Usually resulting in a mixture that separates. I have had the original product since May-ish. It has not separated as of today. I'm definitely not looking to sell a shake before use shampoo. If it were just for me, that'd be just fine. If I were to swap the sodium for potassium, how much would I use instead and in what concentration?

 

[doriettefarm]

I wouldn't want a shake-before-use shampoo either and that's why the original ingredient list has me slightly stumped. In order to selectively superfat (using the unsaponified oils from the product ingredient list), I don't see how it's possible without using something like PS80 to prevent separation.

I typically use a built-in superfat of 3% for my liquid soaps. More than that can make the soap cloudy when diluted and some folks don't like that. So far I haven't attempted to selectively superfat a liquid soap after cooking which is why I suggested reading IrishLass's thread. I think selectively superfatting after cooking the paste may give you more of the oily quality you're shooting for. Also think I might use a blend of CO, OO & Castor for the base oils and save the jojoba for superfatting as it's high in unsaponifiable material anyway.

I use a 3:1 water to KOH ratio. I dissolve the KOH in an equal amount of distilled water and then use glycerin for the remaining 2 parts of liquid. This seems to produce a thicker soap once diluted.

The amount of KOH will depend on your mix of base oils. I would highly recommend learning how to use a lye calculator (soapee.com is my favorite for all soap types). It will crunch all the numbers for you. Just select the purity of your KOH (90% is pretty standard but can vary depending on supplier), set your superfat % and select your base oils from the list. I always work in percentages because it makes recipes easier to scale up & down.

 

[BigJimmyW13]

I wouldn't want a shake-before-use shampoo either and that's why the original ingredient list has me slightly stumped. In order to selectively superfat (using the unsaponified oils from the product ingredient list), I don't see how it's possible without using something like PS80 to prevent separation.

I typically use a built-in superfat of 3% for my liquid soaps. More than that can make the soap cloudy when diluted and some folks don't like that. So far I haven't attempted to selectively superfat a liquid soap after cooking which is why I suggested reading IrishLass's thread. I think selectively superfatting after cooking the paste may give you more of the oily quality you're shooting for. Also think I might use a blend of CO, OO & Castor for the base oils and save the jojoba for superfatting as it's high in unsaponifiable material anyway.

I use a 3:1 water to KOH ratio. I dissolve the KOH in an equal amount of distilled water and then use glycerin for the remaining 2 parts of liquid. This seems to produce a thicker soap once diluted.

The amount of KOH will depend on your mix of base oils. I would highly recommend learning how to use a lye calculator (soapee.com is my favorite for all soap types). It will crunch all the numbers for you. Just select the purity of your KOH (90% is pretty standard but can vary depending on supplier), set your superfat % and select your base oils from the list. I always work in percentages because it makes recipes easier to scale up & down.

Of course one of the other issues that I run into is lack of experience. I don't know what this should look like when it's ready. I know the old zap test from my grandma, but that doesn't tell me what I did wrong on the basis of looks. I will likely try to contact him and propose the changes that you suggested. Potassium and swapping the jojoba. I'm definitely pulling my hair out over here. I promise you, I'm not here for lack of trying... There's just some fundamental things that I have missed and I don't know what they are. You mentioned the soapee calculator. I went to that before and was kind of lost on how to use that thing. It might as well been in Russian.

 

[lenarenee]

I wouldn't want a shake-before-use shampoo either and that's why the original ingredient list has me slightly stumped. In order to selectively superfat (using the unsaponified oils from the product ingredient list), I don't see how it's possible without using something like PS80 to prevent separation.

Is it possible that PS80 or equivalent was piggybacked with another ingredient?
Therefore not listed on the label? You know, how some companies don't list a preservative on their lotion label, but it was pre-included in another additive they used?

 

[doriettefarm]

Since you lack the necessary knowledge and experience, I would highly suggest reading everything possible in the Liquid Soap forum. You will learn thru the trial and error of others and save yourself time and money, I promise. Did you read IrishLass' thread that I linked? If not, please start there. I did a quick search and also found one of Susie's tutorials on how to use the soapee calculator (http://www.soapmakingforum.com/showthread.php?t=58840&highlight=soapee+tutorial&page=2).

There info is here at your fingertips but you can't expect a spoon-feeding. I'm trying my best to help without spelling out a recipe for your chemist. You really need a basic understanding of the process along with some sense of what different ingredients will bring to the table. Do some reading and play around with the soapee calc . . . then come back with a proposed recipe and we'll be happy to give you feedback.

lenarenee - I was wondering the same thing regarding the original product label and PS80. Lush tends to disguise ingredients that way too.

 

[lenarenee]

Since you lack the necessary knowledge and experience, I would highly suggest reading everything possible in the Liquid Soap forum. You will learn thru the trial and error of others and save yourself time and money, I promise. Did you read IrishLass' thread that I linked? If not, please start there. I did a quick search and also found one of Susie's tutorials on how to use the soapee calculator (http://www.soapmakingforum.com/showthread.php?t=58840&highlight=soapee+tutorial&page=2).

There info is here at your fingertips but you can't expect a spoon-feeding. I'm trying my best to help without spelling out a recipe for your chemist. You really need a basic understanding of the process along with some sense of what different ingredients will bring to the table. Do some reading and play around with the soapee calc . . . then come back with a proposed recipe and we'll be happy to give you feedback.

lenarenee - I was wondering the same thing regarding the original product label and PS80. Lush tends to disguise ingredients that way too.

PS80 isn't a "natural" sounding ingredient so they may have tried to be deceptive.

To the OP, it might help you to make Irish Lass's soap recipe to get your feet wet and see how the process goes. Plus...its a gorgeous and wonderful soap!

 

[doriettefarm]

PS80 isn't a "natural" sounding ingredient so they may have tried to be deceptive.

To the OP, it might help you to make Irish Lass's soap recipe to get your feet wet and see how the process goes. Plus...its a gorgeous and wonderful soap!

I totally agree with this advice! I've been dying to try IL's recipe so it's going to be the next liquid soap I make. That exercise will give you an understanding of the process itself. You can use that soap as a jumping off point to start tweaking your mix of base oils. I would go for the CO, OO, Castor combo I suggested for your second batch and use jojoba plus whatever mix of other oils as the superfat. I would use IL's method of superfatting after the cook along with some PS80 . . . it's your choice on the stearic acid. That really depends on if you want the creamy, opaque look in the finished product. It might contribute some to the thickness of the final product which could also be achieved with guar gum. I'd probably try without the stearic first because jojoba is really a wax ester and that plus stearic might leave a waxy feel on the beard.

 

[lenarenee]

And it's just simply a lovely, lovely soap. I don't share it with people because I don't want to use a preservative. But people always comment on the beautiful golden soap at the sinks.

One day I'll try her pearly soap!

 

[doriettefarm]

I also wanted to throw one more thing out there for the OP and forum to chew on. I understand the wanting to be 'all natural' aspect and to some maybe that means not using detergents. So here's what's really bugging me . . . it's the idea of using a liquid soap base as a shampoo when I've heard so many times that the high ph of soap isn't good for hair. I don't have a beard so maybe different things are desired for that application. Any other guys care to chime in? Also curious what folks with salon experience think about it.

 

[BigJimmyW13]

Is it possible that PS80 or equivalent was piggybacked with another ingredient?
Therefore not listed on the label? You know, how some companies don't list a preservative on their lotion label, but it was pre-included in another additive they used?

I know that they clearly are hiding whether the used NaOH or KOH by listing the oils as saponified, so anything is possible. I know that there are plenty of companies that don't list their ingredients list 100% as well.

Since you lack the necessary knowledge and experience, I would highly suggest reading everything possible in the Liquid Soap forum. You will learn thru the trial and error of others and save yourself time and money, I promise. Did you read IrishLass' thread that I linked? If not, please start there. I did a quick search and also found one of Susie's tutorials on how to use the soapee calculator (http://www.soapmakingforum.com/showthread.php?t=58840&highlight=soapee+tutorial&page=2).

There info is here at your fingertips but you can't expect a spoon-feeding. I'm trying my best to help without spelling out a recipe for your chemist. You really need a basic understanding of the process along with some sense of what different ingredients will bring to the table. Do some reading and play around with the soapee calc . . . then come back with a proposed recipe and we'll be happy to give you feedback.

lenarenee - I was wondering the same thing regarding the original product label and PS80. Lush tends to disguise ingredients that way too.

If it seems like I'm looking for a spoon feeding here, I'm sorry if I have come off that way. Not my intention at all. If I were paying you, then I would expect it. There's a difference. I am not a something for nothing person, if I were, I wouldn't have paid a couple of chemists to begin with. After paying them though, I have come to the conclusion that if you want something done right, you have to do it yourself.

I personally know how valuable a good forum is to whatever project or task you're trying to accomplish. I went from basic engine knowledge to building a motorcycle in my kitchen in college with mostly basic hand tools. All with the help of a forum. It was a rewarding and fulfilling experience.

PS80 isn't a "natural" sounding ingredient so they may have tried to be deceptive.

To the OP, it might help you to make Irish Lass's soap recipe to get your feet wet and see how the process goes. Plus...its a gorgeous and wonderful soap!

This is EXACTLY what I was planning on doing. Her recipe seems to be idiot proof the way she lays it out, so I'm going to attempt it this week, once I get the necessary ingredients that I don't already have.

I totally agree with this advice! I've been dying to try IL's recipe so it's going to be the next liquid soap I make. That exercise will give you an understanding of the process itself. You can use that soap as a jumping off point to start tweaking your mix of base oils. I would go for the CO, OO, Castor combo I suggested for your second batch and use jojoba plus whatever mix of other oils as the superfat. I would use IL's method of superfatting after the cook along with some PS80 . . . it's your choice on the stearic acid. That really depends on if you want the creamy, opaque look in the finished product. It might contribute some to the thickness of the final product which could also be achieved with guar gum. I'd probably try without the stearic first because jojoba is really a wax ester and that plus stearic might leave a waxy feel on the beard.

Yeah, I knew that jojoba is actually technically a wax (we use it in our beard oils). I have a hairdresser friend who told me once that there is a fine line between moisturizing and greasy when it comes to soaps. While that may be true. What doesn't always work for hair, does for beards. For instance, most people don't want their hair to be "greasy" because then it looks oily and flat. That's the EXACT thing you want with the beard. You want it to have that shine and the extra moisture, plus you want it to be "flat". I don't have a better word for it. That extra weight in the hair helps it to stay in place and seem longer.

I also wanted to throw one more thing out there for the OP and forum to chew on. I understand the wanting to be 'all natural' aspect and to some maybe that means not using detergents. So here's what's really bugging me . . . it's the idea of using a liquid soap base as a shampoo when I've heard so many times that the high ph of soap isn't good for hair. I don't have a beard so maybe different things are desired for that application. Any other guys care to chime in? Also curious what folks with salon experience think about it.

I know what you're getting at. I try to tell people that "all natural" isn't necessarily a good thing. Cyanide, belladonna, hemlock, curare, poisonous mushrooms, snake venom are "all natural" that doesn't mean they are good... When I first started I was going to go the route of not doing all natural, but it was stalling half of the conversations I would have with people. So I stopped going that route. Mainly, I am trying to stay away from detergents and preservatives. Not because I'm against most of them, per se, but because the people that buy my products are.

 

[BigJimmyW13]

Any suggestions on KOH brands? I was going to buy this KOH, but after reading some reviews I realized there is a slight consistency issue on purity. Any thoughts? If you read the first 4 star review I believe that is the one that talks about the purity.

 

[lenarenee]

That is quite a range of purity levels on the label, isn't it? I'd look for a company that has a better idea of the purity level when they pack it. Every time you open the bottle it's exposed to moisture, which changes the ratio.

Many people here buy from thelyeguy.com and only have great things to say.
I've bought from Amazon - Duda's Red Hot Devil, and from Brambleberry.