Having trouble with vegan palm free recipe

[Momstop]

Can anyone help me with a recipe for a palm free vegan soap? My sister in law can’t get enough of it and loves the soap I make for her but the problem is the ability to work with it, I have trouble keeping it from solidifying almost instantly.

I’ve only done 2 batches and they both turned out great for use but I ended up forgetting the scent in the second batch (thankfully she doesn’t mind at all lol) as I panicked when it ceased up almost instantly and more importantly, I don’t have any time to make them look good!

Recent recipe attempt attached. Soaped at 120 oils, about 125 lye in terms of temp.

Any ideas?

She’s very picky about what she will use, no palm oils or animal fats and she prefers to avoid soy even!!

 

[dixiedragon]

Have you tried hot process? Add a bit of sodium lactate - hopefully an expert will chime in with how much - to keep it fluid.

There's a reason that lard is (IMO) queen of the soapmaking oils. It is unique in that it makes a slower tracing batch yet makes a hard bar. Both palm and tallow (not that you're using use) make a hard bar but trace quickly. Shea butter and cocoa butter trace VERY quickly. Because of lard's low melt temp, you can soap at lower temperatures which slow trace...but with cocoa and shea butter, you can't do that.

Rather than trying to do a swirl, maybe try ideas that make use of the fact that this hardens/thickens quickly. Have you tried a mica pencil line? Layers? Sculpted top?

 

[Momstop]

Have you tried hot process? Add a bit of sodium lactate - hopefully an expert will chime in with how much - to keep it fluid.

There's a reason that lard is (IMO) queen of the soapmaking oils. It is unique in that it makes a slower tracing batch yet makes a hard bar. Both palm and tallow (not that you're using use) make a hard bar but trace quickly. Shea butter and cocoa butter trace VERY quickly. Because of lard's low melt temp, you can soap at lower temperatures which slow trace...but with cocoa and shea butter, you can't do that.

Rather than trying to do a swirl, maybe try ideas that make use of the fact that this hardens/thickens quickly. Have you tried a mica pencil line? Layers? Sculpted top?

Glad you mentioned hot process as that was my thought as well, going to give that a shot, not that it’ll help with the artistic side but at least I can control the process and even super fat which will be nice. I’ve been meaning to do a line of face soaps via HP anyway.

I did manage to get some layers in there this time around and swirled with a hanger through it, hoping it comes out looking good.

 

[Obsidian]

Its probably tracing fast due to the amount of butters. What temps are you soaping at? I would keep this right around 100-105 to help slow trace.

Maybe going with a single color would be a good idea. You could add color and scent to the oils before the lye, mix well then hand stir in the lye solution.

You could always texture the top and add some glitter or mica swirls to spruce it up.

 

[Arimara]

I have not worked with too many FOs but maybe using one that can keep your soap liquid longer may help.

Also, I agree with dixiedragon on the use of lard. It fantastic in soap. I can't use that soap on my face for nothing (I get a rash if I do, IDK) but it such a good soap.

 

[Momstop]

I have not worked with too many FOs but maybe using one that can keep your soap liquid longer may help.

Also, I agree with dixiedragon on the use of lard. It fantastic in soap. I can't use that soap on my face for nothing (I get a rash if I do, IDK) but it such a good soap.

My two primary recipes I make are lard and tallow based, which I get from a farm that renders organic grass fed animal fats. Problem I’ve found with the lard is that is seems to eat up my scent, just the organic stuff not the store bought, any idea why?
Love working with both for artistic purposes though!

 

[Momstop]

Its probably tracing fast due to the amount of butters. What temps are you soaping at? I would keep this right around 100-105 to help slow trace.

Maybe going with a single color would be a good idea. You could add color and scent to the oils before the lye, mix well then hand stir in the lye solution.

You could always texture the top and add some glitter or mica swirls to spruce it up.

Thanks for the tips, I haven’t tried any texturing other than the swirls yet so maybe that with some hemp hearts on top and a solid colour is the best way to approach this

oh and I was at 105 the first time so I tried 120 this time, didn’t seem to make any difference.

 

[Steve85569]

59% "hard" oils could have something to do with the fast movement of the recipe.

I agree with the hot process suggestion.

 

[atiz]

In an attempt to clean out my butters that have been sitting around here for a while, I made a pretty unusual soap a little while ago, which turned out to be surprisingly nice. I was out of lard and even of olive and avocado oils, and didn't want to get anything that I did not have already. So my recipe was: HO Sunflower 30%, Apricot kernel 10%, Castor 9.5%, Cocoa butter 10%, Kokum butter 10%, Mango seed butter 10%, Shea butter 10%, Coconut oil 10%, beeswax 0.5%. (I used vinegar for full water replacement.)
I soaped pretty cool, and, somewhat surprisingly for me, it ended up as a rather slow-moving batter. And, a surprisingly nice soap as well.

 

[Kiwi2:)]

Glad you mentioned hot process as that was my thought as well, going to give that a shot, not that it’ll help with the artistic side but at least I can control the process and even super fat which will be nice. I’ve been meaning to do a line of face soaps via HP anyway.

I did manage to get some layers in there this time around and swirled with a hanger through it, hoping it comes out looking good.

Hi there from New Zealand

I caught the soapbug 18 months ago in response to my daughter's request for a palm-free soap (the effects of palm are pretty controversial here and palm-free is big).

I saw that you are using a similar palm-free/vegan recipe to the one that I use so I couldn't resist responding - I cold process too. If it helps at all to compare, my base recipe is 17% shea (refined), 6% cocoa butter, 11% avocado, 32% rice bran, 26% coconut, 9% castor. Superfat 7%, lye concentration 33%. Gel for harder bar. I soap at 90F-95F with room temperature or same temp lye. I use sodium lactate and kaolin at 1tsp/ppo. I don't stick blend, I just whisk to emulsion and then work in colours, etc. I have plenty of time to work the batter usually (FO allowing!) I did read somewhere here that refined shea is less likely to thicken up the batter than unrefined shea also.

I maybe need to tweak the coconut oil to make it less soluble (pretty sure that was a comment I read recently by Deanna - thank you!) but if I gel and use SL the bars are pretty hard. They have a rich, creamy, bubbly lather and don't strip your skin out

Best of luck with your experimenting

.

 

[szaza]

I agree with what @Kiwi2:) said. I've recently tried 40% refined shea and was able to swirl the soap while at emulsion. The trick was to soap as cool as possible: let oils and lye completely cool down to room temp, +-20°C (sorry don't know what that is in °F, but I know it's below 120°F). The second time I was lazy and didn't wait as long for it to cool down and it moved a lot faster. If you SB always use small bursts while mixing the batter in between. Hand whisking is also an option.
I think it was @Mobjack Bay who experienced her unrefined shea moving much faster than the refined one. I got some unrefined shea to try it out, but haven't gotten around to it yet.
If you decide to HP add +- 1 Tbs ppo of (vegan) yoghurt after cook as well as some additional liquid to make the batter more fluid. It is possible to swirl HP soap

 

[penelopejane]

Have you tried Lindy's soap recipe? NOT as a shampoo bar (soap is not good for your hair) but as a soap? Read the whole thread if you can. I don't use castor oil above 5%.
https://www.soapmakingforum.com/threads/shampoo-bar-thanks-lindy.30946/

Your recipe has a lot of hemp seed oil which is prone to DOS and too much coconut oil for me - I find it very drying. Your recipe must also be very expensive to make although this might not be the case in your area. It might be interesting to compare it to a soap made along the lines of Lindy's soap recipe. It makes a very nice, gentle soap.

 

[runnerchicki]

I have a high butter recipe and when I make it I don't plan any swirls. I do a solid color and blend the fragrance oil and color into the melted oils before adding the lye solution. Then I just stick blend and get it in the mold. It is still very pretty soap. I use a different recipe for swirls or pours that need some working time.

 

[Mobjack Bay]

If you’re using unrefined shea, try refined. It moves slower for me compared with unrefined. I agree with @Obsidian about temperature. I probably wouldn’t go below 110F as a starting batter temp (when oils and lye are first mixed) because with that much butter in the recipe I would probably end up with stearic spots.

 

[Momstop]

If you’re using unrefined shea, try refined. It moves slower for me compared with unrefined. I agree with @Obsidian about temperature. I probably wouldn’t go below 110F as a starting batter temp (when oils and lye are first mixed) because with that much butter in the recipe I would probably end up with stearic spots.

Wow, good call on the stearic spots, I saw a couple in there when I cut it. I thought it was titanium dioxide, didn’t realize this could happen from high butter percentage.

 

[Momstop]

If you’re using unrefined shea, try refined. It moves slower for me compared with unrefined. I agree with @Obsidian about temperature. I probably wouldn’t go below 110F as a starting batter temp (when oils and lye are first mixed) because with that much butter in the recipe I would probably end up with stearic spots.

I am using unrefined so I’ll switch that up. Does the same go for cocoa butter?

 

[Momstop]

Have you tried Lindy's soap recipe? NOT as a shampoo bar (soap is not good for your hair) but as a soap? Read the whole thread if you can. I don't use castor oil above 5%.
https://www.soapmakingforum.com/threads/shampoo-bar-thanks-lindy.30946/

Your recipe has a lot of hemp seed oil which is prone to DOS and too much coconut oil for me - I find it very drying. Your recipe must also be very expensive to make although this might not be the case in your area. It might be interesting to compare it to a soap made along the lines of Lindy's soap recipe. It makes a very nice, gentle soap.

I'm going to give this a try, looks interesting. What would you say is a cut off for using hemp oil?

 

[Momstop]

Hi there from New Zealand

I caught the soapbug 18 months ago in response to my daughter's request for a palm-free soap (the effects of palm are pretty controversial here and palm-free is big).

I saw that you are using a similar palm-free/vegan recipe to the one that I use so I couldn't resist responding - I cold process too. If it helps at all to compare, my base recipe is 17% shea (refined), 6% cocoa butter, 11% avocado, 32% rice bran, 26% coconut, 9% castor. Superfat 7%, lye concentration 33%. Gel for harder bar. I soap at 90F-95F with room temperature or same temp lye. I use sodium lactate and kaolin at 1tsp/ppo. I don't stick blend, I just whisk to emulsion and then work in colours, etc. I have plenty of time to work the batter usually (FO allowing!) I did read somewhere here that refined shea is less likely to thicken up the batter than unrefined shea also.

I maybe need to tweak the coconut oil to make it less soluble (pretty sure that was a comment I read recently by Deanna - thank you!) but if I gel and use SL the bars are pretty hard. They have a rich, creamy, bubbly lather and don't strip your skin out

Best of luck with your experimenting

.View attachment 44925 View attachment 44926 View attachment 44927

That soap is gorgeous!!! Good to know I can do it. Think I need some refined Shea butter and will try your recipe to see how it works for me, thanks for sharing. That said do you find it at all drying with that much coconut and castor oil, I usually don’t go above 20 & 5 percent.

 

[Mobjack Bay]

I am using unrefined so I’ll switch that up. Does the same go for cocoa butter?

The cocoa butter I’ve used has been unrefined, but I don’t think I’ve used more than 5%.

 

[Arimara]

My two primary recipes I make are lard and tallow based, which I get from a farm that renders organic grass fed animal fats. Problem I’ve found with the lard is that is seems to eat up my scent, just the organic stuff not the store bought, any idea why?
Love working with both for artistic purposes though!

I'm not sure why. I tend to scent my soaps lightly and when I soaped with lard, Even after a year, I still get a little bit of scent (and pig). Now if you really want a scent vampire- make a coffee soap. My very first one disappointed me greatly because that beautifully delicious smelling coffee scent I had used in it faded away to mostly nothing. There was no lard in that at all.