Hard water

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Crazy8

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I know that hard water can have an affect on soap, at least with commercial stuff. Is there anything that could be done or added to a batch of soap that will still allow it to perform at its peak (ie strong lather, slickness, etc.) even in hard water?

I have done some searching but am not quite finding what I am looking for. What worse is I thought I came across an oil or something that even said "works well in hard water" or something and of course now that I'm looking, I cant find that...lol
 
There are people who say, and even photos purporting to show, that addition of stuff like EDTA will improve lathering of a cake of soap in "hard" water. Only thing is, when I do the math, I don't "get" it. The molecular weight of water "softeners" is such that, once you work out the equivalent amount of "hardness" minerals they're taking out vs. the weight of soap those minerals would take out, there doesn't seem to be an advantage. On a weight basis, the one substance that'd seem to really be advantageous in that regard in that it takes less of it than an equal weight of soap itself to take out calcium is the substance you'd probably like to keep out of your soap: soda ash! And even though it "softens" water, it doesn't improve lather, tends to depress it in fact, and is harsher on skin than the soap itself.
 
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I don't know if this is what you are looking for, Crazy8 but soap with a high coconut oil content lathers fairly well in hard water. I would use a high superfat when using a high percentage of coconut oil. I use about 5% Castor oil in most of my recipes to boost the bubbles. I add white sugar to my distilled water and stir until dissolved before adding the lye. This seems to give me more bubbles in my soap. Several oils are said to stabilize lather. Here is a link to a chart with some info.

http://www.lovinsoap.com/oils-chart/
 
My salt bars lathered great in hard water and they were high coconut oil and salt (ha!).

Related but different: I just moved to a place with soft water and frankly, we HATE it! I almost miss my hard water. It feels like the soap isn't washing of you (even my husband's commercial soap), my hair feels weirder then when I had hard water (I use a CP shampoo bar & ACV rinse) and even though it's not supposed to leave as much soap scum, I feel like there is more in these bathtubs/showers then at my last place. So frustrating!
 
It is all in the recipe imho. I have a good friend ( heartsong) who took my soap on the road with her just to see what the lather etc was like in different water. her report was pretty good if I remember correctly.

I do not use CO, I use PKO instead, I add sugar to each batch as well as a little castor oil. I use a high % of OO too.
 
It is all in the recipe imho. I have a good friend ( heartsong) who took my soap on the road with her just to see what the lather etc was like in different water. her report was pretty good if I remember correctly.

I do not use CO, I use PKO instead, I add sugar to each batch as well as a little castor oil. I use a high % of OO too.

you make fabulous soap, sweetie! when I used her soap in many different areas of the country, I noticed in hard water a nice creamy lotiony lather with lots of small bubbles...when used in soft or treated water there was a bit more of a flash froth of larger bubbles which drew down to a nice latherly crème...no difference in after skin feel.

I have heard some soapers adding baking soda to their batch as a water conditioner, but have not pursued it further.

over the years I have adjusted my recipe to the point where I get the best lasther for my area's hard water...you can do this too...just takes a bit of tinkering.
 
Thank you all for the input. I do have a couple more questions that have popped up now though. Whats CO and PKO? and is there any chance I might get this wonderful recipe that you have spoken so highly of to perhaps make a batch of it sometime myself?

Thanks again
 
Thank you all for the input. I do have a couple more questions that have popped up now though. Whats CO and PKO? and is there any chance I might get this wonderful recipe that you have spoken so highly of to perhaps make a batch of it sometime myself?

Thanks again

What is your recipe now, maybe we can help you tweak it..
 
Crazy8, just to let you know, it's a bit of a faux pas to ask for someone else's recipe, although you asked very nicely. it's a touchy subject sometimes for soapers; people work for months or even years tweaking their recipes to get their soap just as they want it and most guard their personal recipes, because they worked so hard to come up with them. Some people share, but not always.

People will often give a good basic starting recipe and then you can tweak it to your desires.

Just FYI! :)
 
Oh I completely understand. I figured the only way Ill find out is to ask, so I did. :) One of my other hobbies is brewing root beer. I haven't been doing it long (less than a year) but I have two recipes that have been getting awesome reviews. One recipe I share with the people on the forum and the other, well much like here id presume, I hold pretty tight. I will give people that recipe, but an earlier version which also allows them to tweak it to their tastes. So I totally understand the angle on that. ;)
 
What is your recipe now, maybe we can help you tweak it..

Well I dont really have a recipe yet. Im kind of in "play mode" and just looking at everything out there. I did make a Bastile soap just to try my hand at it and make sure I understood the process and all. It did turn out so now I am going to do this basic soap with Armani Code FO.

16 oz. olive oil
16 oz. coconut oil
16 oz. lard
16 oz. cold water
6.8 oz. lye crystals
1.5 – 2 oz Fragrance Oil or Essential Oil of choice
Oils and water/lye temperatures between 90 to 130 degrees

I also want to make a coffee soap just to see how it will come out. This is a "half" version of the original recipe I found...

25.5 oz. of olive oil
15.75 oz. of coconut oil
14 oz. of chilled, brewed coffee (as the liquid base)
5.97 oz. of lye
1.5 tablespoons of ground coffee beans
1/2 cup of ground walnuts


I know this is going to wander slightly off topic but I am what I call a pretentious shaver. I use expensive (and cheap) imported shaving creams and soaps. I have my own beautiful Merkur 34C HD razor. Anyway, I want to possibly even try making some body lotions and shaving creams some time down the road just to see how they turn out and how they work and perform. For now I am just trying to start with simple recipes and see what I like and dont like.
 
What it comes down to is that there really isn't a formula for soap that does better than others at lathering in "hard" water per se. Rather, it's just that more lather in general means more under those conditions as well. The soap that lathers better in "soft" water will also do so in "hard" water. It's like whoever's taller will have a head poking above the others when standing on level ground, and also when standing in a hole, though the hole makes everyone look shorter.

When you dissolve soap in water, the more calcium & magnesium there was in the water, the less of the soap dissolves. The way to overcome that is simply to dissolve more soap to make up for what's used up by the minerals in making lime soap. You'd think you could mix something else with the soap to take up those minerals, but that something else is going to take up space (and weight) in the bar that would've otherwise been taken up by soap, so you're not gaining anything unless you can replace that amount of soap with something that weighs less and reacts with the same amount of minerals. There are some chemicals like that, but the difference in their weight and that of the soap they replace is hardly worth it, and if you try using much of them, they'll change the character of the bar to make it less soaplike and more crumbly.

You might have noticed that lime soap is an anti-foam, for instance against bubble bath foam, so that unless bath water is completely "softened" first, soap defoams the bath. That's true, but only at high dilution of the foaming material. When it comes to a thick lather in a small amount of water, lime soap has hardly any foam-depressing effect at all. (This is true of anti-foams in general.) So it's not like you gain anything in terms of latherability by "softening" the water with anything else more than you do by "softening" it by using more soap.

The only other "solution" is to use something other than soap entirely--some foaming and detergent surfactant that doesn't react with the water minerals. The chemistry of making those is more difficult than kettle process soap (although the starting materials are similar) and has a lot less history, and I doubt there'll develop enough of a fan base for it to take off as a hobby.
 
Thank you all for the input. I do have a couple more questions that have popped up now though. Whats CO and PKO? and is there any chance I might get this wonderful recipe that you have spoken so highly of to perhaps make a batch of it sometime myself?

Thanks again

this recipe works best where I live. I get lots of creamy lather, it rinses well & my 58 year old skin feels soft & clean.

5% castor
25% coconut
25% olive
45% lard (or lard/tallow blend) palm works too, but not as conditioning)

5% superfat water/lye 2:1

I add 2 tsp sugar and 2 tsp powdered sodium lactate (lotioncrafters) before adding lye to water.

I sub 2 oz canned coconut milk from water amount, reserved and added at thin trace

1 rounded tbsp. powdered oats per pound of oil...I use the old fashioned oats and pulverize them into flour with my coffee grinder...add this just before you pour as it will begin to thicken soap batter.

make sure you gel...it just turns out better...if you need help converting this to ounces, let me know & i'll post my full recipe...just tell me how many ounces oils you'll use. :)
 
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