Hard and Soft Oils Ratio

[bluebirdwing]

What made u add stearic acid to the recipe.?was it because you wanted hard sosp? I am new to Soaping ,just two batch old and not very happy with the results .

My first batch was really hard to take out from mould, I heard stearic acid will help with it, also, it will make the soap more long lasting in shower.

 

[bluebirdwing]

I used Disano pomace olive oil. It was a castile soap. My oil traced very fast. I had heard that olive oil is very slow moving, so it was very unexpected for me. Did you use virgin or extea virgin OO?

I used Pomace Olive Oil, EVOO or VOO are way too expensive to use in soap. Others told me ordinary olive oil is slow moving, may be its VOO, I dont know. Other slow moving they mentioned is lard, that we cant get here right?

 

[GemstonePony]

Light Olive oil might behave better than Pomace, but no guarantees.
From your list, Rice Bran oil would probably be best for slowing the recipe down without increasing rancidity.
Sunflower would be ok, as long as it was High-Oleic. But if it doesn't specify, I would assume it is the Linoleic variety which might increase risk of rancidity if used over 15%, and Soybean and Sesame might also increase risk of rancidity if used at over 15% as well. With Peanut oil you might be ok with 20%.

 

[Mobjack Bay]

@bluebirdwing Stearic acid is a ”free” form of one of the fatty acids found in the triglyceride fats we use in soap making. It reacts quickly because it is not bound up in a triglyceride molecule. So, yes, you need to include it in the lye calculation. It’s not hard to do because you can select it from the fat choices in the lye calculators. Whether or not you include other additives in the calculation depends on the additive. For example, sugar does not saponify and does not react in a way that affects how much lye is needed. On the other hand, citric acid (added as a chelator and/or in citrus juices) and vinegar (hardens the soap) do not saponify, but they react with lye and must be accounted for in the lye calculation. So, step 1 is to select the additive if it is listed in the “oils, fats and waxes” list and then step 2 is to check and account for any other additives that may react with the lye. Some of the calculators will make the adjustments for citric acid and vinegar, but I recommend that you do some research/reading here on the forum at at the Soapy Stuff website in advance so you understand the reactions and basis for the lye adjustments.

As for the effect of superfat on pH, I don’t know the answer.

 

[Kasuda]

I used Disano pomace olive oil. It was a castile soap. My oil traced very fast. I had heard that olive oil is very slow moving, so it was very unexpected for me. Did you use virgin or extea virgin OO?

Pomace olive oil traces very fast ...

 

[Mobjack Bay]

This article from the Soapy Stuff website tells you how to figure out if an oil is “high oleic”.
https://classicbells.com/soap/highOleic.asp

 

[Soapy_suds]

I used Pomace Olive Oil, EVOO or VOO are way too expensive to use in soap. Others told me ordinary olive oil is slow moving, may be its VOO, I dont know. Other slow moving they mentioned is lard, that we cant get here right?

Lard is pig fat. I don't work with animal fats. Many indian consumers would not want it in their soap. So its not widely available.

 

[dibbles]

Light olive oil would be what I think @AliOop is calling regular olive oil. Pomace accelerates for me so I don't use it and I agree, EVOO is too expensive for use in soap. I have used olive oil that was labeled light (as in light tasting) and had no problems.

 

[bluebirdwing]

Lard is pig fat. I don't work with animal fats. Many indian consumers would not want it in their soap. So its not widely available.

I know, I am from India too.

 

[bluebirdwing]

Light Olive oil might behave better than Pomace, but no guarantees.
From your list, Rice Bran oil would probably be best for slowing the recipe down without increasing rancidity.
Sunflower would be ok, as long as it was High-Oleic. But if it doesn't specify, I would assume it is the Linoleic variety which might increase risk of rancidity if used over 15%, and Soybean and Sesame might also increase risk of rancidity if used at over 15% as well. With Peanut oil you might be ok with 20%.

Ok, Thank you @GemstonePony , I think I will replace some of the Pomace with Rice Bran oil.

@bluebirdwing Stearic acid is a ”free” form of one of the fatty acids found in the triglyceride fats we use in soap making. It reacts quickly because it is not bound up in a triglyceride molecule. So, yes, you need to include it in the lye calculation. It’s not hard to do because you can select it from the fat choices in the lye calculators. Whether or not you include other additives in the calculation depends on the additive. For example, sugar does not saponify and does not react in a way that affects how much lye is needed. On the other hand, citric acid (added as a chelator and/or in citrus juices) and vinegar (hardens the soap) do not saponify, but they react with lye and must be accounted for in the lye calculation. So, step 1 is to select the additive if it is listed in the “oils, fats and waxes” list and then step 2 is to check and account for any other additives that may react with the lye. Some of the calculators will make the adjustments for citric acid and vinegar, but I recommend that you do some research/reading here on the forum at at the Soapy Stuff website in advance so you understand the reactions and basis for the lye adjustments.

As for the effect of superfat on pH, I don’t know the answer.

This article from the Soapy Stuff website tells you how to figure out if an oil is “high oleic”.
https://classicbells.com/soap/highOleic.asp

Thank you @Mobjack Bay for the detailed explanation, I will check out the article too.

Light olive oil would be what I think @AliOop is calling regular olive oil. Pomace accelerates for me so I don't use it and I agree, EVOO is too expensive for use in soap. I have used olive oil that was labeled light (as in light tasting) and had no problems.

Ok, Thank you @dibbles

 

[Peachy Clean Soap]

@bluebirdwing The info below is related to oils & what each will bring to your soap. You can find an in-depth comprehension list of oils & its properties @nuturesgardencandles.com.


Soap is made by the chemical reaction that occurs when mixing fatty acids, lye (NaOH for bar soap, KOH for liquid soap), and water. Lye acts as the chemical emulsifier that bonds fatty acids with water molecules by generating heat. This process is called saponification. Soap cannot be made without lye.
Each soaping oil/butter has its own fatty acid composition, and these fatty acids provide finished soap with important characteristics. The following are the most common fatty acids found in soaping oils/butters along with the qualities they provide in a finished bar of soap.
Lauric Acid: Provides hardness, cleansing, and bubbly lather. Linoleic Acid: Provides conditioning
Myristic Acid: Provides hardness, cleansing, and bubbly lather. Oleic Acid: Provides conditioning.
Palmitic Acid: Provides hardness and a creamy lather.
Ricinoleic Acid: Provides conditioning, bubbly lather, and a creamy lather.
Stearic Acid: Provides hardness and a creamy lather.
Each soaping oil/butter has a unique saponification value (the number of milligrams of lye required to saponify 1 gram of the specified oil/butter).
In order to create a quality bar of soap, it is necessary to find a balance between hardness, cleansing, conditioning, bubbly lather, and creamy lather. This usually involves using a combination of oils/butters in your soap recipe. A typical bar soap recipe calls for 38% water content, and a 5% superfat (the percentage of oils that do not saponifiy).

 

[TheGecko]

I have read the soaping oils should have at least 40% of hard oils.

I disagree. You can make a quality bar of soap with just Soft Oils, you would just need to let them cure longer.

Be that as it may, the "Holy Trinity" (or most basic recipe) is an equal amount of Olive, Palm and Coconut Oils (34% Soft, 66% Hard). My first recipe was around 41% Olive, 27% each Palm and Coconut, and 5% Castor. I then played around with a bunch of different oils and butters and finally came up with 35% Olive, 20% each Palm and Coconut, and 5% Castor Oils and 10% each Cocoa and Shea Butters. You have all of these available and are welcomed to give it a try.

 

[earlene]

So, my stick blender arrived and I am onto my second batch of CP. I have read the soaping oils should have atleast 40% of hard oils. Since I am from tropical region, almost all oils are in liquid form, except butters. I found the soapcalc little confusing. Can anyone help me choose oils for the soap? I can list most common and easily available oils in my city.

Coconut oil
Palm oil
Sunflower oil
Soybean oil
Peanut oil
Sesame oil
Ricebran oil
Mustard oil
Olive oil
Castor oil
Cocoa butter
Shea butter

I used the same olive oil for a baby soap and it took a long time to get trace, and olive oil was 70% in it. The brand is Del Monte.

Pomace

I do not know, but assume that since your SB (stick blender) just arrived prior to the first post in this thread, that the soaps made prior to the pink soap was not made using the SB, and that would include the baby soap you mentioned that you made with 70% Del Monte pomace OO. Is that correct? Did you make it all by hand stirring?

In one post you said you did not know what regular OO is. I use the term 'regular' olive oil when I mean anything other than pomace olive oil because all the other olive oils are more alike than pomace. I am not familiar with Del Monte brand pomace olive oil (I am familiar with the brand Del Monte, but have never seen or used pomace with that brand name on it), so cannot address your experience with their pomace olive oil. But I have used pomace olive oil often (usually with an Italian brand name) and always it has been extremely fast to trace, in so much as I avoid using a stick blender at all because it traces so fast. Although I have read of one or two other soapmakers who also said their experience with pomace is that it doesn't trace quickly, most soapmakers whose post I have read, do have the experience that it traces fast. So I would wonder at the quality of your pomace olive oil. Still, your experience is your experience, and if it came from the same bottle as the oil you made the baby oil from (or even the same brand), I would not expect the oil to act any differently.

Anyway, I did want to address some of the oils you mentioned. I may have missed it, but I didn't notice anyone mentioning a couple of them.

Soybean oil has a shorter shelf life and can go rancid sooner than some of the other oils you listed, so many soapmakers discourage its use in soap, or recommend only a small percentage of the formula be soy oil. HOWEVER, soy wax (a soy product) is an alternative to hard oils that has a much longer shelf life, and when used in soap is often used at higher proportions. Of course, you don't list it, so probably can't use it. I made a single oil soap using soy bean oil, which developed DOS rather quickly (went rancid and smelled awful). In small amounts (low percentages) in soap, it didn't cause problems, but since I don't cook with soy oil, I did not see any reason to keep a bottle of this oil around just so I could use a little bit of it to make soap, especially since it has such a short shelf life and other oils brought more to the soap.

Mustard oil - I would not use this in soap, although I never have tried it; I expect it is expensive and has better uses.

Sesame oil - nice natural fragrance (in my opinion), lends darkness to the soap when used in a soap, more costly (in the US) than most commonly used soaping oils. I prefer it for cooking. I did once make a single oil soap with it but it's not a great oil for soapmaking; it works, but it doesn't bring anything to the soap that makes it worth the extra cost.

Peanut oil - another short shelf life oil that I don't like in soap. I did use it in tooth soap, because it was suggested it improves the taste of soap used for brushing the teeth. I don't know if that was true or not, as I never made it without including peanut oil. Anyway, I don't cook with peanut oil either, so did not like having a bottle hanging around to go rancid while I waited to use a little bit of it in soap.

I do and have used all the other oils you list, and recommend you try them all in different formulas to determine which you prefer to work with and to come to know which formula you prefer.

As far as fragrances, if you can look up the ones you already have on hand, and find information about them on the manufacturer's website, that might give you a better idea of if they are appropriate to use in lye soap. Fragrances sold for use in Melt & Pour soap are not often appropriate for use in Lye soap, because they are not made to withstand the chemical processes that happens when we mix oils and lye to create soap. MP soap doesn't go through that process after we get it and start melting it down, so it's not a concern.

Also, even in fragrances that are appropriate to use in lye soap, some groups or types tend to cause more acceleration of lye soap. For example: floral fragrances, and spicy fragrances tend to quicken trace, or cause ricing, or acceleration, and even seizing. Alcohol can cause seizing as well, so adding alcoholic beverages to soap requires special precautions. There are methods to deal with these situations when they happen, so I'll include a link for future reference: How to Work with Misbehaving Fragrances | BrambleBerry

 

[Rsapienza]

I used Disano pomace olive oil. It was a castile soap. My oil traced very fast. I had heard that olive oil is very slow moving, so it was very unexpected for me. Did you use virgin or extea virgin OO?

Pomace is known to trace fast. Regular OO does not.

 

[bluebirdwing]

I do not know, but assume that since your SB (stick blender) just arrived prior to the first post in this thread, that the soaps made prior to the pink soap was not made using the SB, and that would include the baby soap you mentioned that you made with 70% Del Monte pomace OO. Is that correct? Did you make it all by hand stirring?

For both batch, I hand stirred. For baby soap(70% Pomace), I used a whisk and mixed till I got a thin trace. For Pink soap(25% Pomace), I mixed with a spatula and it went to medium trace under a min, so, I added the FO, it curdled. After that I used the stick blender to blend it back together and it become like a dough.

In one post you said you did not know what regular OO is. I use the term 'regular' olive oil when I mean anything other than pomace olive oil because all the other olive oils are more alike than pomace. I am not familiar with Del Monte brand pomace olive oil (I am familiar with the brand Del Monte, but have never seen or used pomace with that brand name on it), so cannot address your experience with their pomace olive oil. But I have used pomace olive oil often (usually with an Italian brand name) and always it has been extremely fast to trace, in so much as I avoid using a stick blender at all because it traces so fast. Although I have read of one or two other soapmakers who also said their experience with pomace is that it doesn't trace quickly, most soapmakers whose post I have read, do have the experience that it traces fast. So I would wonder at the quality of your pomace olive oil. Still, your experience is your experience, and if it came from the same bottle as the oil you made the baby oil from (or even the same brand), I would not expect the oil to act any differently.

Its the same Pomace I used for baby soap, same bottle. Only difference is pink soap have coconut oil & palm oil, also stearic acid.

Anyway, I did want to address some of the oils you mentioned. I may have missed it, but I didn't notice anyone mentioning a couple of them.

Soybean oil has a shorter shelf life and can go rancid sooner than some of the other oils you listed, so many soapmakers discourage its use in soap, or recommend only a small percentage of the formula be soy oil. HOWEVER, soy wax (a soy product) is an alternative to hard oils that has a much longer shelf life, and when used in soap is often used at higher proportions. Of course, you don't list it, so probably can't use it. I made a single oil soap using soy bean oil, which developed DOS rather quickly (went rancid and smelled awful). In small amounts (low percentages) in soap, it didn't cause problems, but since I don't cook with soy oil, I did not see any reason to keep a bottle of this oil around just so I could use a little bit of it to make soap, especially since it has such a short shelf life and other oils brought more to the soap.

Mustard oil - I would not use this in soap, although I never have tried it; I expect it is expensive and has better uses.

Sesame oil - nice natural fragrance (in my opinion), lends darkness to the soap when used in a soap, more costly (in the US) than most commonly used soaping oils. I prefer it for cooking. I did once make a single oil soap with it but it's not a great oil for soapmaking; it works, but it doesn't bring anything to the soap that makes it worth the extra cost.

Peanut oil - another short shelf life oil that I don't like in soap. I did use it in tooth soap, because it was suggested it improves the taste of soap used for brushing the teeth. I don't know if that was true or not, as I never made it without including peanut oil. Anyway, I don't cook with peanut oil either, so did not like having a bottle hanging around to go rancid while I waited to use a little bit of it in soap.

I do and have used all the other oils you list, and recommend you try them all in different formulas to determine which you prefer to work with and to come to know which formula you prefer.

As far as fragrances, if you can look up the ones you already have on hand, and find information about them on the manufacturer's website, that might give you a better idea of if they are appropriate to use in lye soap. Fragrances sold for use in Melt & Pour soap are not often appropriate for use in Lye soap, because they are not made to withstand the chemical processes that happens when we mix oils and lye to create soap. MP soap doesn't go through that process after we get it and start melting it down, so it's not a concern.

Also, even in fragrances that are appropriate to use in lye soap, some groups or types tend to cause more acceleration of lye soap. For example: floral fragrances, and spicy fragrances tend to quicken trace, or cause ricing, or acceleration, and even seizing. Alcohol can cause seizing as well, so adding alcoholic beverages to soap requires special precautions. There are methods to deal with these situations when they happen, so I'll include a link for future reference: How to Work with Misbehaving Fragrances | BrambleBerry

Ok, Thank you very much @earlene