Handling Volcanoes Without Panicking

[DianaMoon]

No l meant anything that adds frothy white mass of bubbles or lather

That's sugar or anything with sugar.

Sugar's scorching point is 350F, so you're OK to add it before the cook. (How this is added is the subject of endless discussions. I'd take out some of the water and add it to the water before the cook and add it during the cook. I don't think it much matters when.)

Dairy scorches at 180F, so that's added after the cook. I plan to add some Greek yogurt when the recipe cools to 175F.

Which reminds me: I just got an infrared thermometer and it sometimes subtracts 5F, sometimes not. I've been testing it on liquids with a candy thermometer and some of my reads have been 5F off, some the same. According to the thermometer, I am 93F. I don't think so. But it's good enough.

 

[cmzaha]

Why use a stick blender at all with HTHP? Why not just whisk the whole thing, given that the temps are so high?

Thanks so much and absolutely appreciate the suggestions. I will certainly report my experiences here.

The word volcano works for me because eruption implies that the batter will spurt, as opposed to bubble. However cmzaha has said her batter did erupt. This is concerning.

Are there additives that foster volcanoes?

So, this was an "eruption" that spurted out? The volcanoes/eruptions I've seen (only in videos) bubbled over - they didn't spurt.

Do you know why the eruption was so fierce?

The soap paste was too hot and completely went over my crockpot. The time before it was a wine soap that overheated and erupted over the bucket I was making the soap in. Call it a volcano or eruption whatever you want. It ruined my cabinets and did not help my floor. I heard about it until the day we sold our house which was approx 10 yrs from my husband. In fact, he still reminds me... Honey is a big overheater. BTW, my wine soap was not a hp of any type it was a cp soap that went out of control.

I see absolutely no advantage to this method when I can unmold my soaps within hrs, by formulating a recipe that hardens within hrs, and buying more molds. Molds are much cheaper than a trip to the hospital and new cabinets. Can you tell I HATE THIS METHOD...

 

[DianaMoon]

As someone who has done a fair amount of HTFHP, may I make a friendly suggestion?

Instead, think of this as an expansion. Your batter is simply expanding due to the heat... just like cakes and breads rise (expand) in the oven while baking. You control the expansion by lowering the heat, and by using a whisk (not a stickblender!) to release the trapped hot air from the batter. For a 1000-gram batch, a long whisk and container that is 3x that size should be sufficient to prevent an overflow.

Apologies - I misread the word expansion as eruption. Which you took the time to bold & underline!

As someone who has done a fair amount of HTFHP, may I make a friendly suggestion?

For me, HTHP is a fun process for making a quick batch of HP soap on the stove or in the microwave. I hope you give it a try and let us know how it goes.

So, I did it and...

It was a nothingburger. I think it was because my lye solution was too cool when I mixed it in with the oil, which I heated to about 210 on the stove top in a stainless steel pot. And maybe the oil wasn't hot enough...

Recipe was 100% olive oil (I wanted to keep it simple for a first try, maybe a mistake?), 25% lye concentration, so a lot of water.

I mixed the lye and waited. After a minute or so the temperature registered 140 or so... I thought that the lye reacts immediately w/the water and that waiting longer wasn't good, so I mixed. Oils registered 200 on the infrared.

Maybe I should have waited longer. Nothing happened, so to make a long story short, I ended up doing a traditional stovetop hot process.

Not a trace of a volcano at any point, which makes sense because it never got that hot.

Not a disaster because I have some hot process castile soap, but not a success. I'm still intrigued by this & will try again.

 

[AliOop]

Thanks for the report, and sorry it was no fun. Here are my thoughts:

~ If your lye solution only got to 140ºF, your lye may be old and weakened from exposure to air. It should reach 180ºF shortly after mixing.

~ Olive oil alone isn't an easy one for HTHP, because it takes so long to trace. You might want to a recipe that includes some CO, castor, and shea.

~Did you use any trace accelerants like a few drops of clove or oregano essential oil, or a few shreds (or pumps) of finished soap?

 

[DianaMoon]

Thanks for the report, and sorry it was no fun. Here are my thoughts:

~ If your lye solution only got to 140ºF, your lye may be old and weakened from exposure to air. It should reach 180ºF shortly after mixing.

~ Olive oil alone isn't an easy one for HTHP, because it takes so long to trace. You might want to a recipe that includes some CO, castor, and shea.

~Did you use any trace accelerants like a few drops of clove or oregano essential oil, or a few shreds (or pumps) of finished soap?

1. Sounds about right - the lye was old. Maybe even a year old. I was wondering about that.
2. Wondered about that, too - I'll try again with CO and castor, since I have them.
3. No. Does using shreds of finished soap throw off the calculations?

 

[AliOop]

1. Sounds about right - the lye was old. Maybe even a year old. I was wondering about that.
2. Wondered about that, too - I'll try again with CO and castor, since I have them.
3. No. Does using shreds of finished soap throw off the calculations?

A few shreds of finished bar soap, or a few pumps of liquid soap, doesn't change much other than speeding up trace. Of course, if you are selling, you will need to account for those ingredients on the label.

 

[DeeAnna]

"...the oil, which I heated to about 210.... And maybe the oil wasn't hot enough..."

Folks, be careful with this. The boiling point of a NaOH solution at 25% lye concentration is about 110-115C / 230-240 F. The lower the lye concentration, the lower the boiling point. If the fats are sufficiently hot enough, adding the lye solution will cause the lye to almost instantly boil and erupt through the fat layer. This will spew hot lye solution and fat all over.

It's not just me being a nervous Nellie and imagining things -- people have reported this problem here on SMF. So work with care if you're going to use this high temp method -- monitor your temps and don't get too confident about cranking up the heat.

And as far as IR temperature guns -- they're certainly useful, but they only measure surface temperature, not the average bulk temp of the entire material. Surface temp is usually cooler, so if the material isn't well stirred and the temp checked immediately after stirring, you're going to think the bulk temperature is cooler than it really is.

 

[DianaMoon]

"...the oil, which I heated to about 210.... And maybe the oil wasn't hot enough..."

Folks, be careful with this. The boiling point of a NaOH solution at 25% lye concentration is about 110-115C / 230-240 F. The lower the lye concentration, the lower the boiling point. If the fats are sufficiently hot enough, adding the lye solution will cause the lye to almost instantly boil and erupt through the fat layer. This will spew hot lye solution and fat all over.

It's not just me being a nervous Nellie and imagining things -- people have reported this problem here on SMF. So work with care if you're going to use this high temp method -- monitor your temps and don't get too confident about cranking up the heat.

And as far as IR temperature guns -- they're certainly useful, but they only measure surface temperature, not the average bulk temp of the entire material. Surface temp is usually cooler, so if the material isn't well stirred and the temp checked immediately after stirring, you're going to think the bulk temperature is cooler than it really is.

"This will spew hot lye solution and fat all over."

A true volcano. Many thanks for these safety precautions.

Also the last graf about temperature guns, that clears up a lot. I've been comparing temperatures of different cups of water with my candy thermometer & didn't understand the difference between the two. Or why my forehead measures 93F.

BTW I had a second semi-fail today - used a new container of lye, temp gun registered 180 - but a few seconds later it was a few degrees cooler. Perhaps that was an inaccuracy of the temp gun? Should I have stirred & then measured again? (Update: maybe because I use such a small amount, 65 grams, it doesn't get that hot.)

In any case, I added it to my oil mixture which was (supposedly) at 210 - and there was definitely a reaction but not a volcano. I should add that I have a 5 liter stainless steel container and I am experimenting w/1000 gram mixes, which may cool things down a bit from the start. I NEVER put my face over the pot, and always use mask, big glasses, gloves, and long sleeves.

After that initial reaction, nada, so I did a regular hot process.

Again, thank you.

 

[AliOop]

DeeAnna, what you shared is exactly why I had my one and only volcano with all my many HTHP batches. That one time, my oils were over 240, and yes, they instantly erupted out of the container when I added the lye.

It is definitely not something to take likely, and why I never go over 215ºF for the oils, even though 225ºF is considered "safe" by some. There is just too much chance that the temp gun is off a few degrees, or that oil lower in the bowl is significantly hotter than the surface, etc.

 

[DianaMoon]

Folks, be careful with this. The boiling point of a NaOH solution at 25% lye concentration is about 110-115C / 230-240 F. The lower the lye concentration, the lower the boiling point. If the fats are sufficiently hot enough, adding the lye solution will cause the lye to almost instantly boil and erupt through the fat layer. This will spew hot lye solution and fat all over.

I know you're not a fan of this process but I'm going to try one more time... do you have any idea as to why my lye wasn't heating up enough?

 

[AliOop]

@DianaMoon I am circling back to this thread to supplement what I said much earlier about not worrying about the comparative temps of oils and lye.

As I’m getting ready to make a batch of shave soap, and rereading some threads about that, I’m reminded that having the oils and lye solution relatively close in temp can be important for both practical and safety reasons when doing a hot process shave soap.

Such soaps are typically high in stearic acid, which has a melt point just under 160F if I recall correctly. Adding a significantly cooler lye solution to the hot oils can cause a false-trace type of reaction with the stearic. Worse, it can also be the cause of volcanoes, per DeeAnna’s post above.

After watching more than a few YT videos about the importance of adding the lye solution slowly and while temps are similar, I was reminded that my earlier post was probably too broad and didn’t clarify that there are situations where the comparative temps do matter for safety reasons.

 

[DianaMoon]

@DianaMoon
Such soaps are typically high in stearic acid, which has a melt point just under 160F if I recall correctly. Adding a significantly cooler lye solution to the hot oils not only can cause a false-trace type of reaction with the stearic, it can also be the cause of volcanoes, per DeeAnna’s post above.

Thanks, Ali for you (and DeAnna) making me aware of the risks. For now I'm sticking to cold process but I'll keep this in mind for the future because of my latest dud experiment (in hot process; it went thru an interesting stage that would have made a nice cold process soap, which I'll remember).

I still feel that I have a volcano to climb..

 

[DeeAnna]

I know you're not a fan of this process but I'm going to try one more time... do you have any idea as to why my lye wasn't heating up enough?

I don't think I've ever said I'm "not a fan" of HP. I do mostly cold process, that's true, but I make shave soap and occasionally liquid soap with a hot process method and sometimes I even make regular bar soap with HP. Maybe you're confusing me with Carolyn (cmzaha)? She said she didn't care for the high temp HP method.

I've gone through this entire thread, and I can't find the background info leading up to your question -- "...why my lye wasn't heating up enough?..." Can you give me more info so I can understand the whole story behind this question?

 

[DianaMoon]

I don't think I've ever said I'm "not a fan" of HP....

I've gone through this entire thread, and I can't find the background info leading up to your question -- "...why my lye wasn't heating up enough?..." Can you give me more info so I can understand the whole story behind this question?

Not hot process per se but high temperature hot process (HTHP). You warned it could be dangerous.

When I wrote that comment, I had tried HTHP twice and nary a volcano in sight, so I had to do a trad stovetop hot process. I thought perhaps this happened because my lye hadn't heated up enough but I've since discovered that's not the case because I've done 2 batches and the lye def heated up.

Perhaps I waited too long and it cooled down? I don't think so.

I am using quite a large stainless steel container (5K grams, about 5 quarts) doing small (1K gram) batches, so maybe the heat dispersed too quickly.

Dunno. I'm stumped. No volcanoes. But safe, so all good.

 

[earlene]

Are there additives that foster volcanoes?

In addition to honey, which Carolyn mentioned, anything that contains Sugar &/or Alcohol. I've had it happen with beer & with Kombucha Tea (not HTHP). But there are others than will contribute to faster heat production, such as high content of Coconut Oil in the recipe. I've had soap with high CO content rise up out of the mold (again not HTHP, just plain old CP). I rarely use high CO content recipes, but for laundry soap I have and there were no other additives.