goat milk liquid soap questions

[jenlwhi2]

I've done a few trial batches of liquid soap but they need some work before I figure it out. I want to make it with cp method to avoid scorching the milk. I add my lye to the milk (rather than later in the trace stage)I will be using distilled water for dilution.
My questions are:
1) does liquid soap this way need a preservative?
2)whats the typical shelf life of liquid soap?
3)do i need a ph tester or is zap testing the paste enough?
Any extra tips are welcome
Thanks!

 

[jenlwhi2]

Anyone?

 

[Susie]

1) Most of us have jobs, families, and it is the holidays, so people are busy. A bit of patience goes a long way.
2) All liquid soap that is intended to be sold needs a preservative. You don't know what other people are going to do with it. If you aren't intending to sell, it is up to you.
3) I kept a bottle of diluted liquid soap close to 3 years before I could see bacteria under a microscope. I would not suggest you try it. You can store the paste a very long time in the refrigerator, then dilute as needed.
4) pH measurements are notoriously inaccurate when testing a salt. Soap is a salt. I only zap test. All I need to know is if the paste contains any free lye. Zap testing answers that.
5) Go read this thread: http://www.soapmakingforum.com/showthread.php?t=46114

 

[cmzaha]

Other than bar soap I personally stay away from using milks in products like LS, Cream Soap, Lotions etc. It is very hard to preserve and I agree with Susie LS needs preserving. Not knowing exactly what survives the lye I would not want any milk in such a high liquid product, and really do not think it will change the feel of such a highly diluted product. I have had LS go moldy after time and the same with cream soap. Suttocide A has become my preservative of choice for high ph products.

 

[jenlwhi2]

How do y'all recommend testing it for bacteria? I would probably prefer no preservatives for my personal use but I'd like to learn what I need to do to know if it's growing yuckies!!

 

[jenlwhi2]

I'm just trying to jump this up to see if anyone has some info on my previous question.

 

[shunt2011]

You would need to find a lab to test it or you could try this http://www.lotioncrafter.com/microbial-test-kit-lotioncrafter.html Not sure if it would work on soap. That you will need to check on.

I personally would not risk it with GM even for myself or family. Just because you can't see it doesn't mean it's not in there.

 

[jenlwhi2]

You would need to find a lab to test it or you could try this http://www.lotioncrafter.com/microbial-test-kit-lotioncrafter.html Not sure if it would work on soap. That you will need to check on.

I personally would not risk it with GM even for myself or family. Just because you can't see it doesn't mean it's not in there.

Thank u!
Can anyone explain to me exactly why there is such a need for preservatives with liquid soap vs bar? It's not that I don't believe u..I just like to know 'WHY?' Someone else mentioned that water is added and you don't know what people are going to do with it. But, if soap is made, bottled in sanitary bottles,etc and no longer messed with except for use what is the risk then? I'm not trying to be difficult..im just trying to understand and see if I'm missing something.

Now, I'm fine with using a preservative since its necessary as u guys are proving. But then, I would want to make sure it was working properly too. So, what's the best way to do that? Send to lab or learn to do it myself? What do you all do?
Thanks!

 

[DeeAnna]

I'm not a microbiologist. With that disclaimer, here's my take on this issue --

Have you ever had mold grow on jam? Even in the refrigerator and even with plenty of sugar in the jam for preservation, mold can and does grow, particularly around the edges of the jam where oxygen, light, and environmental conditions are more favorable for microbes to grow on exposed fruit particles.

Microbial growth on the surface of a soap bar is regularly washed off, so microbial growth that does happen (and it does) is discouraged. A soap bar is also essentially solid, which is a physical barrier that discourages microbes from penetrating into the soap structure.

With a liquid soap in a container, any microbial contamination is not removed by use. The fluid nature of liquid soap also allows microbes to migrate around inside the container. Both of these aspects favor microbial growth rather than discourage it. Microbial growth often starts in the thin film of product at the edges of the container (exactly like jam), on the lid, and on or in the dip tube and pump mechanism, although it can also grow within the main body of the product as well.

The dilution of soap with water to make a pourable product reduces the preservative effect of the soap itself. The more dilute, the less the product can act as its own preservative. Diluted LS is anywhere from maybe 20% to 40% pure soap. By "pure soap," I mean the weight of fat plus the weight of NaOH or KOH, not including water or any additives. Bar soap (and liquid soap paste) is roughly 70% to 90% pure soap.

One can use good sanitation when making and packaging liquid soap. And you can be smart about the kind of packaging used -- for example using a closed pump bottle rather than an open jar. Even so, there is no way you can entirely prevent microbes from being present in the packaged product. And there's no way a person can prevent the consumer from doing something that contaminates the product later on. A broad spectrum preservative is insurance against the fungal and bacterial stragglers that sneak their way into the product and its container throughout the lifetime of the product.

Best way to know if your product is well preserved? Know your preservative system is right for the product you're making, learn how to manufacture and package in a sanitary environment, do preliminary challenge testing on your own, then send the finished product to a challenge-testing lab.

What do I do personally? I don't sell products that need preservation due to the greater responsibility for ensuring consumer safety. If I did, I would take my own advice. For my own personal use, I use a preservative in my diluted LS and lotions per the manufacturer's recommendations, work in a reasonably sanitary way, make small amounts of preserved products so I can use them up in a relatively short time, and watch them like a hawk for any changes in appearance, texture, and odor.

 

[IrishLass]

I don't use any preservatives in mine, but I do use EDTA. EDTA is a not a preservative, by the way- it does not kill nasties on contact- but it sequesters the nutrients needed by the yuckies to survive, so that they in effect starve.

Anyway, I started adding EDTA to my liquid soaps after reading this very interesting discussion over at the Dish (start at post #997 by silverdoctor): http://www.thedishforum.com/forum/in...age-40?hl=edta Silverdoctor's posts are really interesting and informative. He's a retired doctor whose experiences in the medical field in regards to soap and bacteria helped to shed light on the subject for me. What he brought to the discussion, and his explanation of oligodynamic action served to help me to decide on the preservative issue for my own liquid soap. My plan of action against yuckies (based on his advice) is using the EDTA in my dilutions and also making sure to follow strict sanitary protocols, such as making sure that not only are my bottles sanitized, but the nozzles and pumps as well before filling or refilling my bottles, and having a quick turnaround time (i.e. I make small 1 lb batches and dilute only enough paste to make about 16 oz. of liquid soap, which fulfills my immediate household needs for a month or two). The rest of my paste is stored in ZipLoc bags in my fridge until needed.

For what it's worth, I should mention that I do not sell, but if I did sell, I would use a preservative because there's no way I could be sure that my customers would be as fastidious with my liquid soap as I am.


IrishLass

 

[shunt2011]

IL do you use goat’s milk? Just curious. I haven’t made a lot of LS but never used milk due to the fear of ickies. [emoji3]

 

[Susie]

I'm not a microbiologist. With that disclaimer, here's my take on this issue --

Have you ever had mold grow on jam? Even in the refrigerator and even with plenty of sugar in the jam for preservation, mold can and does grow, particularly around the edges of the jam where oxygen, light, and environmental conditions are more favorable for microbes to grow on exposed fruit particles.

Microbial growth on the surface of a soap bar is regularly washed off, so microbial growth that does happen (and it does) is discouraged. A soap bar is also essentially solid, which is a physical barrier that discourages microbes from penetrating into the soap structure.

With a liquid soap in a container, any microbial contamination is not removed by use. The fluid nature of liquid soap also allows microbes to migrate around inside the container. Both of these aspects favor microbial growth rather than discourage it. Microbial growth often starts in the thin film of product at the edges of the container (exactly like jam), on the lid, and on or in the dip tube and pump mechanism, although it can also grow within the main body of the product as well.

The dilution of soap with water to make a pourable product reduces the preservative effect of the soap itself. The more dilute, the less the product can act as its own preservative. Diluted LS is anywhere from maybe 20% to 40% pure soap. By "pure soap," I mean the weight of fat plus the weight of NaOH or KOH, not including water or any additives. Bar soap (and liquid soap paste) is roughly 70% to 90% pure soap.

One can use good sanitation when making and packaging liquid soap. And you can be smart about the kind of packaging used -- for example using a closed pump bottle rather than an open jar. Even so, there is no way you can entirely prevent microbes from being present in the packaged product. And there's no way a person can prevent the consumer from doing something that contaminates the product later on. A broad spectrum preservative is insurance against the fungal and bacterial stragglers that sneak their way into the product and its container throughout the lifetime of the product.

Best way to know if your product is well preserved? Know your preservative system is right for the product you're making, learn how to manufacture and package in a sanitary environment, do preliminary challenge testing on your own, then send the finished product to a challenge-testing lab.

What do I do personally? I don't sell products that need preservation due to the greater responsibility for ensuring consumer safety. If I did, I would take my own advice. For my own personal use, I use a preservative in my diluted LS and lotions per the manufacturer's recommendations, work in a reasonably sanitary way, make small amounts of preserved products so I can use them up in a relatively short time, and watch them like a hawk for any changes in appearance, texture, and odor.

You need to go ahead and add this to your storehouse of soapy knowledge treasures, please. That way I can just point someone that way when the question arises again. Thanks!

 

[DeeAnna]

So shall it be done, O Liquid Soap Mistress Susie!

 

[ngian]

You need to go ahead and add this to your storehouse of soapy knowledge treasures, please. That way I can just point someone that way when the question arises again. Thanks!

At this little place full of soapy treasures that DeeAnna writes, I think that the next link should be also included:

http://www.soapmakingforum.com/showpost.php?p=383997&postcount=17

Correct me if I am wrong and the "soapcalc numbers" is already there.

 

[DeeAnna]

Ah, yes, good point, Nikos.

No, I have not yet gotten that post edited and on my website. I will put that on my list of things to do this coming week.

 

[Zany_in_CO]

I've done a few trial batches of liquid soap but they need some work before I figure it out. I want to make it with cp method to avoid scorching the milk. I add my lye to the milk (rather than later in the trace stage)I will be using distilled water for dilution.

I highly recommend Alaiyna B's tutorial on making GM soap. Here's the link:

http://alaiynab.blogspot.com/2014/04/tutorial-how-to-create-liquid-goats.html

I've been making liquid soap since 2004 and most of what I learned, I gleaned from the pioneers of making LS on the Liquid Soapers Yahoo Group. I'm one of the few soapers I know that still uses the CP method occasionally to make LS, so if you need help with that, feel free to PM me and we'll take it from there.

1) does liquid soap this way need a preservative?

No. "Fully saponified soap requires no preservative", Catherine Failor. There are several members on the LS Yahoo Group that sell commercially who will tell you they never use preservative. Well known, commercial, all natural liquid soap, such as Dr. Bronner's and Vermont Soap, contains no preservative, altho Vermont soap uses antioxidant ROE, if I remember correctly. However, many LS'ers do use preservative as a matter of personal preference, in spite of the fact that there is no preservative specifically formulated for use in LS (as far as I know) due to the fact that nasties don't thrive in an alkaline environment, i.e., LS is typically pH 9-11.

2)whats the typical shelf life of liquid soap?

I'm not sure. Indefinite maybe? I found a flaxseed & rosin shampoo I made 4 years ago recently when cleaning out my soaping cupboard. I'm using it now... good as the day it was made -- actually, better! XD. TIP: Rosin not only boosts the lather but has preservative qualities as well.

3)do i need a ph tester or is zap testing the paste enough?

pH testing isn't necessary at all unless you need to diagnose a problem with your soap. More importantly, pH testing isn't going to tell you if there's unsaponified lye in the batch, that's what the soap-in-water, phenolphthalein or the zap test is for. (Note: Personally, I don't zap test, nor do I know many soapers who do that any more, other than here on SMF. I prefer to use the pheno and spare my precious taste buds for other goodies like licking butter pecan ice cream. :mrgreen

Any extra tips are welcome :smile:

Faith (Alaiyna B) has other tutorials for making LS. You might try a few batches using 12-16 oz. oils to get the hang of it before attempting the goat milk batch. 12.5 oz. oils/fats makes 16 oz paste that you can then divide into four 4-oz portions to test different levels of dilution, fragrance, and any other additives that you have in mind.

HTH :bunny: and HAPPY SOAPING!

ETA: Here's a link to another site, Snow Drift Farm (defunct; now archived), that covers the basics and then goes on to discuss using goat milk in LS. It looks like the GM is not used to make the lye solution but rather added during trace at a rate of 20% (if my math is correct) of the total liquid amount. Worth a read?:

http://web.archive.org/web/20060520222037/http://www.snowdriftfarm.com/form_liquidsoap.html
​

 

[IrishLass]

More importantly, pH testing isn't going to tell you if there's unsaponified lye in the batch, that's what the soap-in-water, phenolphthalein or the zap test is for. (Note: Personally, I don't zap test, nor do I know many soapers who do that any more, other than here on SMF. I prefer to use the pheno and spare my precious taste buds for other goodies like licking butter pecan ice cream

I 100% agree that a pH test will not tell someone if their soap has unsaponified lye in it, but I 100% disagree that that's what phenolphthalein is for- at least not in the way that most soapers use it, i.e., if the soaper is improperly dripping drops of it directly onto their soap, or even if they use it in a proper 1% soap/water solution- it's only going to show you a range of pH. It won't show you if there is unreacted lye in the soap.

There is only one test that I know of in which phenolphthalein is useful in regards to testing soap for unreacted lye- the 'total alkalinity test', which involves the use of a certain gram weight of soap, neutralized ethanol** and a few drops of a 1% phenolphthalein solution to make up the soap solution, and a 5 ppt citric acid solution to titrate the ethanolic soap solution with. **The ethanol, which may contain a little acid, must first be neutralized to the phenolphthalein with a 5-ppt KOH solution before mixing it with the soap.

For those that want to use the 'total alkalinity' test, an ethalonic soap solution that tests out with a total alkalinity of 0 parts per thousand is defined as being 'tongue neutral'. To me it's quicker and less hassle to just do a quick, safe, properly executed tongue test (as described here ).

Also- the other problem with using phenolphthalein in the way most soapmakers use it or prescribe others to use it (i.e., dripping it directly on soap or dripping it in a 1% soap/water solution) is that the results can be misleading, because it turns various shades of pink from 8.2 pH to 12 pH, turns clear in a pH of 0 - 8.2, and also turns clear when the pH is over 12. One can very well mislead themselves into thinking their soap is 8.2 pH because it tests out in the 'clear' zone, but for all they know, the pH might be 13, which could be very bad for those that are highly pH sensitive folks. And since phenolphthalein used in this way only test for ranges of pH (instead of for total alkalinity), the soap could very well have unreacted lye in it to boot. A simple tongue test, on the other hand will tell them for sure in no more than a few seconds.

Here's an informative post by our DeeAnna that explains a little more about this issue:
http://www.soapmakingforum.com/showpost.php?p=433444&postcount=9


IrishLass

 

[Zany_in_CO]

Pheno test for unsaponified lye

I 100% agree that a pH test will not tell someone if their soap has unsaponified lye in it, but I 100% disagree that that's what phenolphthalein is for- at least not in the way that most soapers use it, i.e., if the soaper is improperly dripping drops of it directly onto their soap, or even if they use it in a proper 1% soap/water solution- it's only going to show you a range of pH. It won't show you if there is unreacted lye in the soap.

Very informative post, Irish. Thank you. However, I don’t use pheno to test for pH but rather to be sure all the excess lye has been absorbed, as shown in Carrie’s Liquid Soap video where she replaces water with glycerin to make the KOH solution. Run the video up to about the 5-minute-mark to see how she does it:

[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o6brP--yQpU[/ame]

When I first tried this, not only did the batch become soap in all of 2 minutes (woo hoo!), but it tested bright fushia at that point, just as she shows in the video, and tested clear after I waited an hour. Amazing! Not trying to be argumentative, just sayin’, I’m not a scientist, just a lowly ole soaper, and it works for me, as well as others on the Liquid Soapers Yahoo Group.

Thanks for mentioning that bit about some persons being sensitive to high alkalinity, i.e. "pH 13". Good to know. Makes me think I need to make LS this way again just to see what the pH is after it's finished. Hmm. I do add citric acid (20% solution) at a rate of 0.06% as a matter of habit to most of my (0% SF) batches so hopefully that would take care of that issue?

 

[ngian]

Phenolphthalein is a pH indicator and pH is only available in aqueous solutions.

In the video you posted the first measurement happens when there must be a little bit of water in the soapy mixture while in the second measurement there is mostly soap paste.

If she would add some water to that paste of the second measurement then the phenolphthalein indicator would turn pink as the KOH soap is always alkaline.

 

[Zany_in_CO]

In the video you posted the first measurement happens when there must be a little bit of water in the soapy mixture.

Nope. When I did the test, the soap was soap, no "free" water. It's really a rather amazing method, to my mind at least. And a very useful tool that every LS-er should have in their toolbox -- especially when it comes to making 100% Olive Oil Castile, which requires a long amount of time to get to trace and to cook until fully saponified.

ETA: If I ever make it again, ngian, and it won't be any time soon, I'll keep your comments in mind. Interesting. Thanks.