Glycerin ("or lack thereof") in dual lye shaving soap

[Fireside]

Does anyone know if skipping the glycerin in a dual lye shaving soap recipe would be a big deal? The recipe I'm going to try is the one from Lovin Soap. The glycerin I have is very old. It might still be okay, though; it doesn't smell funny or look funny. And I can't find any locally...my big box craft store is out and my neighborhood drug store doesn't carry it (someone on here said you can get it at a drug store). But what if I just left it out? Or what if I used fresh aloe vera gel instead (or along with the old glycerin I have, if I decide to use it). I know aloe vera gel isn't meant to be a substitute for glycerin but it would add moisture to the soap, which I think is what glycerin is supposed to do. Thanks in advance for any insight!

 

[AliOop]

Glycerin is extremely shelf stable, so if yours looks and smells ok, I'd use it. It does play a fairly important role in shaving soap, both from a process standpoint, and the feel of the final product.

 

[Fireside]

Thanks AliOop! Do you have an opinion on throwing a little aloe vera gel in (in addition to the glycerin), just for the heck of it?

 

[AliOop]

I've not tried it in my shaving soap, but I could see where it might lend some nice qualities.

Have you made shaving soap before? If not, I'd stick to the recipe for the first time, and make a pretty small batch. That way, you can get comfortable with the process and decide whether you want to change any of the qualities without having to finish up a bunch of the old stuff first. Ask me how I know about that.

Of course, if you are already comfortable with the process of making shave soap, then sure, add some AVJ and see what you think!

 

[Fireside]

Yeah, I was kind of thinking I should just follow the recipe (sans tallow; using other high-stearic butters instead) and see how it goes. I haven't made dual lye shaving soap before. I have made liquid soap a couple times and wasn't real fond of the process. I suspect it'll be the same for this process. But I want to make a shaving soap and everybody says that the dual lye, hot process method is the only way to do it. I've made a cold process soap that I called shaving soap because it made a nice lather that could be used for shaving but it's nothing like what you get with the dual lye formulation. My plan is to use 16 ounces of oils/butters, which is a relatively small batch.

 

[AliOop]

Sounds great!

Do check the total stearic FA number of your revised recipe to ensure that this stays the same as, or pretty close to the original recipe. If it isn't, you can reduce one of the butters and up the stearic acid (that is, stearic acid as a standalone ingredient).

Shaving soap is similar to LS up to the paste stage, but thankfully doesn't require any faffing about with dilution, solubilizing EOs/FOs, blah blah. I think it's fun, but it does move fast, so typically my water is pretty high, to give a little more working time.

 

[Fireside]

My stearic is 42 vs 37 for the Lovin Soap recipe. Strangely, when I put the Lovin Soap numbers into the lye calculator (saponicalc) using a 5:1 water:lye ratio and 5% superfat, as the recipe says, the amount of water and lye it came up with is more than what the Lovin Soap recipe calls for. That's neither here nor there as it applies to my revised recipe, I just found it curious.

 

[AliOop]

My stearic is 42 vs 37 for the Lovin Soap recipe. Strangely, when I put the Lovin Soap numbers into the lye calculator (saponicalc) using a 5:1 water:lye ratio and 5% superfat, as the recipe says, the amount of water and lye it came up with is more than what the Lovin Soap recipe calls for. That's neither here nor there as it applies to my revised recipe, I just found it curious.

The difference is probably from the change in fats used, which changes the total amount of lye needed (due to different SAP values in your butters vs their tallow).

Once you change the amount of lye, that will change the amount of water needed to make the correct ratio.

 

[Fireside]

But I entered the same fats that are in the original recipe (https://lovinsoap.com/2016/10/shave...ye Shave Soap. This shave soap recipe is made) to see how that recipe compared to my revised recipe using different fats (illipe butter and kokum butter, if you're curious) in place of the tallow. So there was no change in fats when I entered the Lovin Soap numbers into the calculator, just a change in the lye and water amounts the calculator required compared to what the lye and water amounts are in the original recipe from Lovin Soap. Could it have something to do with the purity of the KOH?

Again, it doesn't matter in terms of my revised recipe, which uses a couple different fats and a smaller amount of total fats than the original Lovin Soap recipe and which, of course, I ran through the calculator to get my water and lye requirements. It just made me wonder how the Lovin Soap people came up with the water and lye amounts they came up with because they don't match what the lye calculator (two lye calculators, actually) came up with.

Thanks for your help AliOop and for indulging my curiosity. I'll let you know how it turns out when I get around to making it.

 

[AliOop]

Ah, I see what you are saying now; I thought you were talking about the two different recipes.

If you entered the exact same amount of oils, same lye concetration, and same superfat, then It could also be as you say, that they used a different lye purity. Also, some calculators use slightly different SAP values for each oil than might be used in another calculator. All of the SAP values in each calculator are based on averages/estimates, so there is a range, albeit fairly small.

Illipe and kokum sound amazing for your shave soap. I'm definitely looking forward to seeing lather pics and hearing how it goes for you!

 

[Fireside]

Okay Ali (or anybody else who wants to chime in), I'm going to give the soap a go this morning but before I begin, I'm wondering about something in the instructions for that Lovin Soap recipe I'm going to use. It says to do all the stuff and mix while it goes through all the stages: applesauce, mashed potatoes, loose again, taffy. Then it says to cook until it's neutral, which is determined by the zap test, and once neutral add the fragrance. But she says that at that stage her soap was "super-thick" and that it was hard to mix in the fragrance. Considering my low threshold for frustration and my presumption that my soap will also be "super-thick" (don't know why she put a hyphen in there) at that point, can I add my fragrance at some earlier point, like the loose again stage? I plan to use a FO called Mystical Woods. In cold process soap testing it claims no acceleration or ricing.

 

[AliOop]

Sorry I didn't see this sooner, and hopefully I'm not too late to be of help.

Amy Warden sure knows her soap stuff, and there is nothing wrong at all with her instructions per se. If I had a misbehaving FO that I was determined to use in shave soap (good luck with that, lol), I'd do it the way Amy suggests.

However, I too have low tolerance for frustration, and prefer to simplify things as much as possible whenever possible. With that in mind, here is what I do.

Assuming the FO is well-behaved, which you said it is, I add the fragrance right at the beginning when mixing the lye and oils. After blending to a stable emulsion (usually the loose, pre-taffy stage which is oh-so-brief), I pour it right into the mold. It will saponify on its own without a partial cook, or no cook at all - just like CP bar soap will do.

HTH, and looking forward to hearing how it went.

 

[Fireside]

Thanks for the tips, Ali. I didn't make it today afterall. While I was waiting for guidance, I made some vegetarian green chili instead. It's good. Then I moved on to other things. My next target date is Thursday. And maybe I'll cut my recipe in half, just in case. Stay tuned.

 

[Fireside]

So I did it and I have realized that dual lye shaving soap may not be for me since my threshold for patience is about as high as my threshold for frustration, which is to say almost non-existent.

I followed the instructions as best I could. I did all the pouring and weighing and melting and mixing and cooking. The one thing I may not have done enough of is waiting. Once I added the lye to the fats and started mixing with the stick blender it went through the stages: apple sauce, mashed potatoes (although thin mashed potatoes), loose again, then smooth and shiny like taffy. It never got "super hyphen thick" or difficult to manage. I added the glycerin and FO when it got to the smooth and shiny stage and kept mixing, while in the crock pot with the heat turned to high. But it never got thick or gloppy until I took it off the heat. I did the zap test and I swear I did not get zapped. It never felt like I put a transistor radio battery to my tongue--not even a mostly dead one.

So I poured (not spooned or glopped or forced) the what-I-hope-was-saponified soap into the molds. The longer it was off the heat the firmer it got. And then when I did the zap test--several times--it sometimes felt like a mostly dead transistor radio battery (it definitely wasn't "shocking" or uncomfortable) and it sometimes felt like nothing. I was thinking I wasn't so much feeling anything as I was tasting the soap. I don't know what that means. I'll attach pictures of it in the molds if you want although I don't know if that would add anything.

 

[AliOop]

It sounds like you did everything right. My soap is often zap-free by the time it gets to the taffy stage, too. There is no guessing about the zap - if you can't say that you felt it, then it wasn't zappy, lol.

Since you were able to pour the batter in, it's probably going to be fabulously smooth bars when you remove them from the mold. Go you! Can't wait to see the results and hear what you think once you try it.

 

[Fireside]

That gives me hope! It's been almost 24 hours. Can I at least see how lathery it is or should I wait the week that most people seem to wait before testing lather?

It is nice and smooth. I like that. Look:

One other thing I learned in this process is that I don't like the way stearic acid behaves when it's melting. In my experience yesterday, any stearic acid that wasn't on the bottom of my stainless steel vessel (i.e., residual stuff on the side) hardened immediately and it was hard to remove it. I did not like that.

 

[AliOop]

Those look great! I would do a lather test right away - you know, for science!

I agree, stearic is a pain to work with. You can create high-stearic recipes without it, but the lather probably won’t be quite as stable - it will be more like a very thick soap lather, and less like shaving cream.

 

[Becky1024]

That gives me hope! It's been almost 24 hours. Can I at least see how lathery it is or should I wait the week that most people seem to wait before testing lather?

It is nice and smooth. I like that. Look: View attachment 79340

One other thing I learned in this process is that I don't like the way stearic acid behaves when it's melting. In my experience yesterday, any stearic acid that wasn't on the bottom of my stainless steel vessel (i.e., residual stuff on the side) hardened immediately and it was hard to remove it. I did not like that.

Yes stearic acid is a pain to work with because the melt point is so high. After making a batch try letting the inner crockpot have a good long soak in hot water to remove the residue on the side.

 

[Fireside]

Here it is...I've never tried to load a shaving brush with lather before. In fact, I don't even have a shaving brush, being someone who doesn't (and I hope will never) have facial hair. I do have some old makeup brushes and the smaller one (for blush) seemed to work better than the bigger one (for powder). I wasn't quite sure how to do it. I've read (on this forum) that some just barely wet the brush and they get instant and abundant foam (lather, bubbles, cream...whatever it's called). Others just barely wet the soap and they get instant foam. I tried just barely wetting both and didn't get much (but I was just using a little bit [half dollar size] of scrap soap) so I added more water to both the brush and the soap and after much agitation I finally got some action. But it certainly wasn't instant. Or abundant. It's not bad, though.

Here's right after loading


And here's about 10 minutes later


Could be worse. In fact, it might get worse: I'm inspired to try again using a bit more of the dreaded stearic acid (can I shorten that to DSA?) to try to increase lather. My recipe only included 28%.

 

[AliOop]

Considering it is fresh soap, and not a stiff shaving brush, that's very nice lather!