Glycerin Allergy

[TwystedPryncess]

:bunny:
I had someone ask me recently about finding soap that was glycerin free, as they had an allergy to glycerin.

I searched the forum and the only thread I found wasn't very forthcoming, as the only answer there was someone questioning the accuracy of the person's allergy. My person is sure the allergy is glycerin, so that thread didn't help.

Also, this is a bit stumping to me because I thought that was one huge reason we make soap...most of the store bought mess being detergent, with the glycerin taken out and sold elsewhere. Is there just enough left in most store bought soap for an allergy to rare up?

I've seen that salting out soap can remove glycerin, but would a salted out soap be alright for someone to use every day on their skin? I was thinking this method was used to make laundry soap, mostly.

Looking forward to some educated answers from you all, as this one has me quite stumped.

 

[kchaystack]

Glycerin is the natural product of making soap.

It sounds like she is going to have to use syndets. Salting out can remove glycerin but I would not trust that it would all be removed especially where an allergy is concerned. Store bought soap usually has the glycerin removed - and then a small amount added back in. The rest is sold to other cosmetic producers.

 

[dixiedragon]

I think Kchaystack is right. you will need to look for a glycerin free base.

 

[kchaystack]

I think Kchaystack is right. you will need to look for a glycerin free base.

I think that is going to be tough. I bet most M&P has added glycerin as a humectant. You might actually have to look at getting your on syndets and making your own.

 

[earlene]

Yes, the salted out soap is fine to use for bathing. But the amount of work involved certainly doesn't seem worth it on a regular basis, for me anyway.

The salted out soap that I made following DeeAnna's instructional videos*, has a very nice feel on the skin. I was surprised at how nice it feels considering it doesn't have glycerin. It makes my skin feel silky, and this is with nothing added back in at all.

~~~

*Links to her 2 videos and General Instructions here: https://classicbells.com/soap/saltOutTut.html

 

[DeeAnna]

What Earlene has found is true for me too. If a basic type of bath soap is mild to the skin before being salted out, it will be just as mild after salting out. So my suspicion is that the benefit of glycerin in hand-made soap is a bit over-rated as long as the soap itself is reasonably nice.

I think glycerin may affect the quality of lather and possibly the skin feel of non-typical soaps, since added glycerin does seem to be beneficial in shave soaps high in stearic acid.

As far as allergies go -- apparently glycerin allergy IS a thing if a quick Google search is any indication, although I think it's pretty unusual. If this person is allergic to glycerin, then you have to assume ANY amount is bad. Salting out will remove most of the glycerin from lye soap -- that is how the glycerin is removed from commercial soap -- but it won't get rid of it all. That leaves you with synthetic detergents that have no glycerin.

 

[LilyJo]

As far as I know glycerin can be derived from a number of sources so its probably an allergy to a specific origin,

Sure it doesnt help but if she could find out what the source allergy is it would be easier to develop a soap that works.

 

[Susie]

As far as I know glycerin can be derived from a number of sources so its probably an allergy to a specific origin,

Sure it doesnt help but if she could find out what the source allergy is it would be easier to develop a soap that works.

I read several articles about glycerin "allergy" as tested by a doctor. I have to also question what the source of the glycerin is, as your own body produces glycerin/glycerol as it metabolizes food.

http://science.howstuffworks.com/life/cellular-microscopic/fat-cell2.htm

When you eat a candy bar or a meal, the presence of glucose, amino acids or fatty acids in the intestine stimulates the pancreas to secrete a hormone called insulin. Insulin acts on many cells in your body, especially those in the liver, muscle and fat tissue. Insulin tells the cells to do the following:
*Absorb glucose, fatty acids and amino acids
*Stop breaking down glucose, fatty acids and amino acids; glycogen into glucose; fats into fatty acids and glycerol; and proteins into amino acids
*Start building glycogen from glucose; fats (triglycerides) from glycerol and fatty acids; and proteins from amino acids

There simply is no way to be allergic to all glycerin/glycerol.

So, therefore, I am going to have to say that perhaps the "glycerin" that people are allergic to is from a particular source that is used in many food and B&B products.

Which leads me back to, what is the source of the glycerin? If we avoid that source, would someone be able to utilize our soap with complete safety?

 

[LilyJo]

I read several articles about glycerin "allergy" as tested by a doctor. I have to also question what the source of the glycerin is, as your own body produces glycerin/glycerol as it metabolizes food.

http://science.howstuffworks.com/life/cellular-microscopic/fat-cell2.htm

When you eat a candy bar or a meal, the presence of glucose, amino acids or fatty acids in the intestine stimulates the pancreas to secrete a hormone called insulin. Insulin acts on many cells in your body, especially those in the liver, muscle and fat tissue. Insulin tells the cells to do the following:
*Absorb glucose, fatty acids and amino acids
*Stop breaking down glucose, fatty acids and amino acids; glycogen into glucose; fats into fatty acids and glycerol; and proteins into amino acids
*Start building glycogen from glucose; fats (triglycerides) from glycerol and fatty acids; and proteins from amino acids

There simply is no way to be allergic to all glycerin/glycerol.

So, therefore, I am going to have to say that perhaps the "glycerin" that people are allergic to is from a particular source that is used in many food and B&B products.

Which leads me back to, what is the source of the glycerin? If we avoid that source, would someone be able to utilize our soap with complete safety?

Yep thats my thoughts exactly.

We have tried hard to avoid glycerin derived from Palm and its not easy but you can find out the source of the glycerin. I would think that if you find out what the source it you can trace that back to the trigger which if you elimate it should mean you could use soap made from another glycerin soufce without any issues.

I have no idea if that makes any sense at all - its been a long day!!!

 

[dixiedragon]

Re: source of glycerin - that's interesting! If the reaction is observable but not severe, it might be worth making a bunch of 1 oil soaps and letting your friend test them. Maybe her allergy is to glycerin derived from (for example) palm oil (which might also include coconut, palm kernel, etc) but she'd be okay with a 100% lard bar.

 

[The Efficacious Gentleman]

That's what I was thinking, Dixie - the glycerine in the soap from palm vs the glycerine in soap from lard

 

[kchaystack]

That's what I was thinking, Dixie - the glycerine in the soap from palm vs the glycerine in soap from lard

This makes no chemical sense. Glycerin is glycerin: C3H8O3 You can not tell if the atoms come from lard, palm, or whatever.

So, if it is the source makes a difference in the allergy - then it is caused by either the source - or one of the other byproducts of producing the glycerin - not the glycerin itself.

 

[The Efficacious Gentleman]

I fail to see then, why my comment makes no sense. Chemically glycerine is glycerine. But the source might make a difference. Therefore the glycerine in soap made from palm or lard may or may not cause a reaction in cases where the source of the glycerine is a factor.

 

[kchaystack]

I fail to see then, why my comment makes no sense. Chemically glycerine is glycerine. But the source might make a difference. Therefore the glycerine in soap made from palm or lard may or may not cause a reaction in cases where the source of the glycerine is a factor.

Because the reaction is not to the glycerin. It is to something else - maybe created along with it - but still not to the glycerin itself.

 

[The Efficacious Gentleman]

And that wouldn't be present in the soap?

 

[dixiedragon]

Reading this article on LiveStrong, it looks like they could be different.

Animal Fats

One source of glycerine is a byproduct of animal fat soaps. Glycerol from animal fats comes from animal triglycerides, one type of fat molecule commonly found in animal blood and the major component of an animal's fatty tissue, according to the Children's Hospital of Pittsburgh. Each triglyceride molecule contains three fatty acid chains, all connected to the glycerol backbone. During soapmaking, the bonds holding the fatty acids onto the glycerol are broken, giving off glycerine as a byproduct. Glycerine obtained from animal products is often labeled "glycerine."
Vegetable Oils
If you are concerned about consuming animal biproducts, you may also find products containing vegetable glycerine. Plants lipids are also typically stored as triglycerides. Plant triglycerides often differ from animal triglycerides because of their fatty acid chains; plant triglycerides commonly contain unsaturated fatty acid chains that form a bent shape, which allows the lipid to form a liquid oil at room temperature. Plant glycerine is obtained as a byproduct of soapmaking using plant oils. Many products that use vegetable oils as a source of glycerine may indicate that they are free of animal products or list "vegetable glycerine" as an ingredient.

http://www.livestrong.com/article/327146-sources-of-glycerine/

 

[kchaystack]

And that wouldn't be present in the soap?

Yes, but is incorrect to say that the allergy is to the glycerin. If you extracted glycerin from lard soap and glycerin from palm soap they would be identical.

I am not saying that the test of making a soap from different oils is invalid. I am saying that glycerin from lard being DIFFERENT than glycerin from palm is wrong. Soap from lard and soap from palm are different - but not the glycerin from each.

 

[The Efficacious Gentleman]

The purest form of the molecule? I quite agree. But that wasn't what I was saying. I was commenting on the suggestion that, if glycerine from different sources might or might not cause a reaction, that avoiding those fats in a soap might work

 

[TwystedPryncess]

Thank you all for these insights. The person at the moment firmly believes they are allergic to the glycerin, so I've taken your findings to them. I'm not so convinced they will be as motivated as we are to finding the proper solution, but I've presented it to them. If they aren't, that's a bad deal for us, actually, because I know we are all pretty darn motivated to wearing it down and figuring it out. I just have an 'intuition' I've learn to listen to and it's telling me my guinea pig is about to back out.

But I'm thinking his doctor told him he's allergic to glycerine, to which I've informed him he has either a lazy *** or not properly trained doctor, and needs to take your guys' hard work and smarts back to that doctor and have them either re-evaluate or try out the single oil soaps to test.

If he is willing to keep going, well, I'll be back. It's sad when people expect something just whipped up with a wave of a wand by someone else with no effort on their part when they need or want something, but we will see. Perhaps I'm being pre-judgemental.

Again, many thanks and much appreciation for your insight so far.

 

[TwystedPryncess]

But let me make sure I'm following everyone, because I want to learn as well, even if the person I'm trying to help backs out.

Our bodies produce glycerin/glycerol, so in essence, there is no way to be allergic to it, because we make it. Did I get that right? I'm simpleminded sometimes, ya know.

So what he's actually allergic to is the byproducts that occur from a source of some unknown source. I need to know A. where he got the idea he's allergic to glycerin, and b. if possible, the source. Which means some work on his part. Which I'm not entirely sure he's interested in doing. But that's okay. Cause I'm learning.

I had no idea we couldn't be allergic to the stuff..it had never been a necessity to know before now. And this is why you all are awesomeness.

It's good to be back. Now I'm off to finish a paper and make some soap that will (hopefully) come out looking like a piece of fallen tree log, awesome realistic bark and all.