Getting from emulsion to very light trace

[rdc1978]

Stop and think about what emulsion is: An emulsion is a mixture of two or more liquids that are normally immiscible (unmixable or unblendable).

In this case, water and oil. How is temperature going to tell you if you've blended water and oil to the point where they will stick together and not separate back into themselves? I think the author found a coincidental temperature and is using that as fact.

While I'm not a scientist, separate, the oil and lye water will continue to cool. It's possible that the reaction of the lye and oil molecules coming together would be a chemical reaction that would cause an increase in heat.

But, its possible a scientist could tell me different. I only took high school chemistry.

 

[amd]

It's possible that the reaction of the lye and oil molecules coming together would be a chemical reaction that would cause an increase in heat.

Right, I'm not arguing that. Pour the lye solution in your oils and don't mix it. It's still doing the chemical reaction, and it's still going create heat from what is saponifying... it's just that your whole batch isn't saponifying. See what I mean? So if you're measuring temp you're only going to see an increase (especially as minor as 1 degree) only where the reaction is happening. Which is still not necessarily emulsion.

 

[rdc1978]

Right, I'm not arguing that. Pour the lye solution in your oils and don't mix it. It's still doing the chemical reaction, and it's still going create heat from what is saponifying... it's just that your whole batch isn't saponifying. See what I mean? So if you're measuring temp you're only going to see an increase (especially as minor as 1 degree) only where the reaction is happening. Which is still not necessarily emulsion.

What I'd say is that it's possible that just sitting on the bottom of the bowl, the lye water hasn't really combined with the oil. The process of mixing the two together and incorporating the two would possibly cause an increased number of reactions between the molecules creating increased heat.

Which, I would think, could ostensibly cause an increased temperature from the lye water sitting on the bottom of a bowl of oil. I could see that being as minor as one degree because it may not take a ton of energy just to get to emulsion, particularly from when the lye water sits on the bottom of the bowl and some of the reaction has already occured.

I'll test it out a little later at lunch, but it's good to talk through it. thanks!

 

[dibbles]

If I remember correctly, I think a person, or people, in the SCC mentioned that they found this to be the case as an indication of the beginning of saponification and when to split batter for coloring. The later consensus has been that it isn't necessarily the case. I might be completely wrong about this - I have never taken a chemistry class. My grandfather was a HS chemistry teacher, but I don't think that counts .

This whole idea may have come from From Grace To You YouTube videos. She routinely whisks her batter until the temp goes up by 1 degree. If I remember, she also soaps warm.

 

[atiz]

It could be the case -- but it seems much more of a hassle to check the temp than to just look at it and see if there are any free-floating oils around. Once you know how to recognize emulsion it is quite easy I think, at least if you have good light.

I can believe that the batter will get warmer as it emulsifies, but the 1 degree (F? C?) seems very arbitrary.

 

[rdc1978]

So, I actually tested this today after work.

Basically, when I poured the lye into the oils the surface temp was 92. I stirred it a bit because I figured that the 92 was just the surface temp of the oils.

The temperature after agitating the lye with the oil (a little stirring) was 93 degrees. I figured this was more accurate as the surface would be representative of the whole. The mix was nowhere near emulsion.

I stick blended until what I felt was the earliest stage of emulsion and the temperature was 94, one degree up from 93.

Even as I continued to stick blend the temperature didn't go over 94. If I let it sit, the mix would cool.....but if I started to stick blend again it would go back to 94, but not to 95.

Also, before anyone's comes @ me, I normally don't soap in a Pyrex and I know I should have been wearing gloves but it was impossible to use the SB, the thermometer and the camera phone without having panic fits about how easily I could drop the phone into the batter.

ETA - I probably wouldn't use this method unless I was unsure about whether I reached emulsion, but it's kinda cool. I'm also not advocating for this method. I think it's interesting but Im not a chemist or a scientist nor do I play one on TV!!

 

[amd]

That's because emulsion and saponification are not the same - emulsion itself does not generate heat. I would have been curious to see an internal temp rather than a surface temp. You may have seen more of a temp change by using a probe thermometer. [might have giggled a bit because I'm 12 and I said "probe"]

 

[rdc1978]

That's because emulsion and saponification are not the same - emulsion itself does not generate heat. I would have been curious to see an internal temp rather than a surface temp. You may have seen more of a temp change by using a probe thermometer. [might have giggled a bit because I'm 12 and I said "probe"]

Yes, that's why a more accurate measure of what the starting temperature of the oils and lye were better measured when i agitated them a bit to mirror on the surface what was happening below....namely the reactions between the molecules that would cause the heat.

As the batter is stick blended and all the molecules on the surface and below go through that reaction, it could ostensibly cause an increase in heat. This appears to be one degree consistently throughout different phases of emulsion up to trace.

While it's one experiment, it seems in line with the information in the article.

 

[jcandleattic]

So how does one get from emulsification to thin trace or at least a trace that would allow the colors in the batter to keep their integrity BUT still be malleable enough to pour?

You look at it. LOL
I've read all the other posts in this thread, and honestly don't understand why anyone would be bothering with such insignificant temp changes to determine emulsion, trace, and thick trace.
Once you've been soaping for a while and have a recipe you like and work with often, you will instinctively know just by looking at your batter when it is at each stage. Seriously, literally by looking at it. I have not used a thermometer in 17+ years and I know when my batter is at each stage of the process: emulsion, when it's barely past that to a very thin trace, to trace, medium trace and thick trace.
IMO all this temp taking and wondering about the chemistry (while good to have the knowledge) is just a LOT of extra work that is not needed.

 

[rdc1978]

You look at it. LOL
I've read all the other posts in this thread, and honestly don't understand why anyone would be bothering with such insignificant temp changes to determine emulsion, trace, and thick trace.
Once you've been soaping for a while and have a recipe you like and work with often, you will instinctively know just by looking at your batter when it is at each stage. Seriously, literally by looking at it. I have not used a thermometer in 17+ years and I know when my batter is at each stage of the process: emulsion, when it's barely past that to a very thin trace, to trace, medium trace and thick trace.
IMO all this temp taking and wondering about the chemistry (while good to have the knowledge) is just a LOT of extra work that is not needed.

I'd agree that it's probably unnecessary work, but the information is there for those who want it. LOL, frankly, every single thing about soaping is unnecessary, IMO. But I enjoy it and even this experiment was fun for me.

However I wouldn't expect anyone who has soaped for 17 years to need or even want to know because that person would already be so practiced and such information wouldn't be welcomed or wanted. I certainly didn't mean to imply that this should be of any real interest or assistance to experienced and expert soapers because you all would be so far beyond this.

 

[jcandleattic]

However I wouldn't expect anyone who has soaped for 17 years to need or even want to know because that person would already be so practiced and such information wouldn't be welcomed or wanted. I certainly didn't mean to imply that this should be of any real interest or assistance to experienced and expert soapers because you all would be so far beyond this.

Okay, but how do you think they get that experience? By doing what works.
If something like what you are suggesting to do worked, all soapers would do it because it would be something that worked and worked well. It obviously doesn't or it would be a common thing, and all soapers would be doing some form of this.
This is literally the first time I've heard of it, so it is not a common practice among soapers.
Just because it's out there and someone is doing it, doesn't mean it's something that should be done.
There is a LOT of erroneous information out on the interwebs, and videos of people doing things the incorrect way.
Just sayin'.

 

[rdc1978]

Okay, but how do you think they get that experience? By doing what works.
If something like what you are suggesting to do worked, all soapers would do it because it would be something that worked and worked well. It obviously doesn't or it would be a common thing, and all soapers would be doing some form of this.
This is literally the first time I've heard of it, so it is not a common practice among soapers.
Just because it's out there and someone is doing it, doesn't mean it's something that should be done.
There is a LOT of erroneous information out on the interwebs, and videos of people doing things the incorrect way.
Just sayin'.

Which is why I tested it. And just because not everyone is doing something doesn't mean it's not true.

Particularly if the prevailing wisdom is to eschew and reject any potential new knowledge or methodology.

So if someone who isn't quite sure when or if they have gotten to emulsion wants to consider using that method as an additional check while they are learning I see nothing wrong with that.

There are other threads ive seen where soapers are tempted to SB just a little more because they want to be absolutely sure they are at a safe point with their soap. If this method can serve as an additional check on that, I see nothing wrong with it.

At this point it's been suggested by a fairly experienced soaper (if the founder of soapchallengeclub wrote it) it's been linked to "bygraceforyou" and I've tested it. I'm not saying to take it as gospel, but to dismiss it because you haven't heard of it seems....premature.

And frankly, just because it hasn't made it to every soaper on this site doesn't mean that it hasn't been used or employed by other soapers.

The idea that "if it worked everyone would do it" may seem logical on its face, but I don't think it is. It's possible, even with the wide knowledge base you have that you may not know everything or have heard of everything.

It seems improbable of course, given your expertise and experience, but not impossible. Particularly if you are not on the hunt for information about how emulsion and stages of trace as you're very practiced in those.

Either way people should use this information as they see fit...or not.

Anyways, I come on this site to get and share knowledge and I'm not here to fight or engage in snark. To that end, I've put you on ignore so you shouldn't reply if you want me to see the response. But you can reply for the forum at large.

 

[amd]

So if someone who isn't quite sure when or if they have gotten to emulsion wants to consider using that method as an additional check while they are learning I see nothing wrong with that.

But here's the problem... and what is trying to be explained to you... you are using temperature to evaluate an unrelated event. Heat is caused by saponification. Saponification does.not.need.emulsion to happen. The two are only related in that bringing your batter to emulsion more evenly promotes saponification. This also shouldn't be a method promoted to beginners. It would be better (more accurate) for them to learn how to see emulsion - we have an excellent video showing it here

 

[rdc1978]

But here's the problem... and what is trying to be explained to you... you are using temperature to evaluate an unrelated event. Heat is caused by saponification. Saponification does.not.need.emulsion to happen. The two are only related in that bringing your batter to emulsion more evenly promotes saponification. This also shouldn't be a method promoted to beginners. It would be better (more accurate) for them to learn how to see emulsion - we have an excellent video showing it here

The process of emulsification requires the molecules to expend energy for one to become suspended in the other.

That expension of energy causes heat. Expending energy always causes heat. Which explains the degree change in temperature from when the molecules are not emulsified from when they are emulsified.

I'm not saying that emulsion is saponification, I don't believe I ever said that it was. What I think I posited was that the process of the molecules expending energy to emulsify would cause an increase in temperature. By one degree.

I've tested it, it's been linked to a more experienced soaper and a fairly experienced soaper wrote about it.

Using it as a check for a beginner who isn't sure if they have met the earliest stage of emulsion is reasonable.

There are many great videos on how to see emulsion and if a beginning soaper would like to use this method to check and make sure they are at an emulsion and aren't sure if they should SB once more I see no issue with that.

Do you not think that the molecules expend energy in the process of emulsion? Or do you not think that heat is the byproduct if expending energy? If you don't believe either of these things, I suppose your position makes sense. But it makes sense to me that the molecules do expend energy to become emulsified and therefore the byproduct would be heat because of the expended energy.

 

[amd]

Do you not think that the molecules expend energy in the process of emulsion?

I don't - when i emulsify my salad dressing it doesn't change temp.

 

[rdc1978]

I don't - when i emulsify my salad dressing it doesn't change temp.

Have you checked? A one degree change in temperature would be hard to feel.

Salad dressing is also a bit different as the emulsion isn't stable and when left alone the molecules return to the state that requires the least energy, namely they separate back into oil and water because existing as an emulsion requires too much energy.

 

[moodymama]

Is it not the lye causing the water and oil to be able to emulsify? Water and oil won't emulsify on their own. Emulsion is the beginning. So in essence you could saponification causes emulsification in this instance. I also read on here that once you reach emulsion you can wait out your batter to each stage of trace after.

Personally I wouldn't use a thermometer, I just look at the spatula or stick blender.

 

[amd]

I'm checking out of this conversation. You can continue to believe this if it makes you feel better. My opinion is that a newbie is better off learning the visual cues because checking temp is inaccurate, as proven by your test:

The temperature after agitating the lye with the oil (a little stirring) was 93 degrees. I figured this was more accurate as the surface would be representative of the whole. The mix was nowhere near emulsion.

You said it yourself - the temp raised 1degree and was nowhere near emulsion.

 

[rdc1978]

Is it not the lye causing the water and oil to be able to emulsify? Water and oil won't emulsify on their own. Emulsion is the beginning. So in essence you could saponification causes emulsification in this instance. I also read on here that once you reach emulsion you can wait out your batter to each stage of trace after.

Personally I wouldn't use a thermometer, I just look at the spatula or stick blender.

I believe the lye causes the ability to stabilize the emulsion, but doesnt cause the emulsion itself. Without a stabilizing agent such as lye the oil and water would separate, because that is the most efficient energy state for the molecules.

It's my understanding as well that once emulsion is reached you can wait it out as well.

However, since the stages of emulsion-light trace- medium trace- heavy trace are a sliding scale some people may want to start their process at the very earliest point of emulsion.

However, if you aren't sure, it's possible to stick blend past that. I know I have.

 

[rdc1978]

I'm checking out of this conversation. You can continue to believe this if it makes you feel better. My opinion is that a newbie is better off learning the visual cues because checking temp is inaccurate, as proven by your test:


You said it yourself - the temp raised 1degree and was nowhere near emulsion.

What I said was that 93 degrees was a more accurate representation of a starting temperature since it reflected on the surface what was occuring below the surface.

Since the thermometer measured only the surface, it was important to get a starting temp that reflected what was occuring below, so that the surface temp was a more accurate representation of the temp of the entire contents.

From that starting point of 93 degrees it went up a degree to 94 degrees when it reached emulsion.

While I didn't do an in depth read of this article it does mention that in a small percentage of the energy during an emulsion is caused by molecular interaction. So, that suggests that there is energy expended by the molecules themselves during emulsion. Though it is small.

"The percentage of interfacial energy in relation to the total energy employed in the emulsification process (uiAi/Wu) was between 0.019 and 0.061%. In general, studies in literature estimate that this fraction is lower than 0.1% (McClements, 2005; Walstra, 1993), which is in agreement with the results obtained here"

https://www.scielo.br/scielo.php?pid=S0104-66322015000100127&script=sci_arttext