Despite all the forum reading I still need help clearing me thoughts.......I made FINALLY some pretty-ish soap but it still has a bit of a zap..... I didn't want it to gel so it'd keep it's creamy look so...I cooled the lye water immediately and added some creamed ccn and ccn milk when I mixed it into the oils (big mistake or no?) I thought it'd be alright. Yup ran it through the soapcalc.....my question is...IF you prevent the gelling does it take longer for the saponification? Granted it's only been 12 hours but getting worried and disappointed already......the morning aftr the soap usually doesn't zap as much....didn't stir enough perhaps?
gelling and zapping
- Thread starter brandnew
- Start date
Help Support Soapmaking Forum:
Yes, it does take longer for saponification if you're preventing it from gelling. It may take several days and I had one batch that took 5 days before it stopped zapping.
Genny
Well-Known Member
Yep, I agree with Hazel. It can take much longer for ungelled soap to quit zapping. So wait a week or so and then try again.
sudbubblez
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- May 12, 2012
- Messages
- 274
- Reaction score
- 7
you could do a rebatch and add the FO and EO during the rebatch, at a low temperature. Grate the soap fine, the finest side on your grater, use coconut for the moisture. Add the fragrances after its all melted an blended together. No one will be able to tell the difference.
I leave mine in the frig until it's stopped zapping. Then I take it out of the frig and check to see if it's still soft. If it is, I'll leave it in the mold for another day so I don't squish it when I take it out. My ungelled loaves are generally always soft at first so I tend to wait to cut them. However, if you have a wire cutter or something as thin and sharp; you probably wouldn't have to wait to cut.
judymoody
Well-Known Member
I do have a wire cutter and if the soap's ungelled and I cut prematurely, I always regret it. For gelled, I generally cut the next day. Ungelled - 3-5 days depending on the recipe.
judymoody said:
That's good to know that even a wire cutter doesn't help. I'll scratch it off my wish list. :wink:
thanks again! I'll wait and leave it for a several days...I can't put it in a fridge as ours is one of those small ones and it's full...(that's another story! :wink: ) then IF ALL ELSE FAILS I will rebatch...I expect it'll be a lovely sludge colour but if it lathers well hubby will be happy! Thanks for your help ladies...it's always encouraging!
sorry it's me again... Hazel all day I've been wondering WHY do you put the soap in the fridge?Is there a chance of it continuing to heat up? Mine is still soft-ish...have another question!...I'd read that if you spray the top with alcohol it helps with the ash...which it does BUT does it have any adverse effect on the chemical reaction of the soap?
Ok OK ..I'll confess I just could NOT leave it alone..I went ahead and took one of the loaves (still using juice cartons and boxes so I can do a few different effects with one batch) and cut the end of it to see if it was a nice layered look because I was getting a bit pessimistic about the outcome and I tested the center of the slice and I could swear it was a heck of alot milder than the top of the soap. It had started to ash up this a.m. so I sprayed it and it's gone ...but does this affect the soap? hmmmmm just wondering..... :? since I can't put it in the fridge should I just leave it uncovered during 'the wait'?
Ok OK ..I'll confess I just could NOT leave it alone..I went ahead and took one of the loaves (still using juice cartons and boxes so I can do a few different effects with one batch) and cut the end of it to see if it was a nice layered look because I was getting a bit pessimistic about the outcome and I tested the center of the slice and I could swear it was a heck of alot milder than the top of the soap. It had started to ash up this a.m. so I sprayed it and it's gone ...but does this affect the soap? hmmmmm just wondering..... :? since I can't put it in the fridge should I just leave it uncovered during 'the wait'?
You don't have to say sorry. I'd still cover the soap with saran wrap if you're going to leave the soap out of the frig and don't want it to get hot. Putting saran wrap on the top of soap may help to reduce ash since you're preventing air from getting to the top. This doesn't always work in my experience. I've laid saran wrap on top of soap and I've still gotten ash.
I've sprayed batches with rubbing alcohol and have never noticed an adverse reaction. Rubbing alcohol evaporates and if there is a minimal amount left it will rinse off the first time the soap is used. BTW, this hasn't always worked for me, either. I've sprayed the tops and still did get some ash but maybe I didn't use enough rubbing alcohol. The way I understand it is if the soap is continuing to form ash, then you still have active lye. agriffin mentioned it in a blog post. http://www.lovinsoap.com/2011/05/secret ... onference/
(Aargh...too early in the morning...too little caffeine)
I'm not knowledgeable about the chemistry side of soapmaking but I'll do my best to explain it. Hopefully, someone will correct me if I get it wrong. :wink: Okay, my simplified explanation - the combination of lye and oil creates an exothermic reaction and it gets very hot. The heat from this reaction "cooks" your ingredients and the batch goes into a "gel stage" which looks translucent (kind of like vaseline translucency). The heat generates from the center of the batch and spreads outwards. If the heat dissipates, this can result in a gelled center and ungelled edges. This is why a lot of people heat their oils/butters to about 110 degrees and add the lye solution to the oils when it's approximately the same temperature. Some people actually combine the oils and lye solution at a higher temp - maybe about 120. Then they cover the molds with towels or something else or place into a warmed oven to keep the heat from dissipating. The heat makes saponification occur more quickly. The loaf hardens more quickly and can usually be taken out of the mold the next day and cut. You do want to remember that trace will be reached more quickly if you combine everything at a higher temperature. Some fragrance oils can cause the batch to heat up and accelerate trace which can result in seizing and the infamous "soap on a stick" result. Also, some FOs can cause the batch to rice but I'm not going to get into this right now. There are other ingredients which can also cause batches to heat up like sugar, honey, the sugar content in some dairy products.
If you lose too much heat, then some of the batch may not going through the gel stage and you get partial gel. Gelled soap looks different from ungelled soap. Partial gel is only an aesthetic issue and your soap is fine. You combine the oils and lye solution at a lower temp and put soap in the frig to prevent it from getting hot enough to gel. Reducing the heat slows saponification which is why it takes longer for the oils to use up the lye and you may still have zapping in the batch a day or longer. When it doesn't gel, the soap is more opaque, creamier looking and colorants tend to be softer. I've noticed my ungelled soaps are always softer than gelled but over time they harden up. I can't say I've ever noticed them getting as hard as gelled batches but this isn't a problem, IMO. Mainly it's personal preference on whether to gel or not gel, some people like the look and texture of gelled soap and some people like the look and texture of ungelled soap.
Almost everyone doesn't like partially gelled soap.
There has been a lot of discussions about gelling versus non-gelling soap in the CP section. You can search and find more info (probably better explained than I've done here).
A problem with soaping cooler (around 100 degrees) is some of the oils like coconut or palm or butters can start to resolidify. This can cause the batch to start to thicken and you might think you have achieved trace. This is called false trace. I've had this happen to me. The batch thickened up, I poured it into the mold and it started to separate within a few minutes. I was not happy. I ended up pouring into a crockpot and warming the batch to make sure it saponified. It turned out okay and fortunately the milk didn't scorch. I was lucky.
Again, fragrance oils can cause a batch to heat up and you can't totally prevent some gelling even with the batch placed in a frig.
HTH
I've sprayed batches with rubbing alcohol and have never noticed an adverse reaction. Rubbing alcohol evaporates and if there is a minimal amount left it will rinse off the first time the soap is used. BTW, this hasn't always worked for me, either. I've sprayed the tops and still did get some ash but maybe I didn't use enough rubbing alcohol. The way I understand it is if the soap is continuing to form ash, then you still have active lye. agriffin mentioned it in a blog post. http://www.lovinsoap.com/2011/05/secret ... onference/
(Aargh...too early in the morning...too little caffeine)
I'm not knowledgeable about the chemistry side of soapmaking but I'll do my best to explain it. Hopefully, someone will correct me if I get it wrong. :wink: Okay, my simplified explanation - the combination of lye and oil creates an exothermic reaction and it gets very hot. The heat from this reaction "cooks" your ingredients and the batch goes into a "gel stage" which looks translucent (kind of like vaseline translucency). The heat generates from the center of the batch and spreads outwards. If the heat dissipates, this can result in a gelled center and ungelled edges. This is why a lot of people heat their oils/butters to about 110 degrees and add the lye solution to the oils when it's approximately the same temperature. Some people actually combine the oils and lye solution at a higher temp - maybe about 120. Then they cover the molds with towels or something else or place into a warmed oven to keep the heat from dissipating. The heat makes saponification occur more quickly. The loaf hardens more quickly and can usually be taken out of the mold the next day and cut. You do want to remember that trace will be reached more quickly if you combine everything at a higher temperature. Some fragrance oils can cause the batch to heat up and accelerate trace which can result in seizing and the infamous "soap on a stick" result. Also, some FOs can cause the batch to rice but I'm not going to get into this right now. There are other ingredients which can also cause batches to heat up like sugar, honey, the sugar content in some dairy products.
If you lose too much heat, then some of the batch may not going through the gel stage and you get partial gel. Gelled soap looks different from ungelled soap. Partial gel is only an aesthetic issue and your soap is fine. You combine the oils and lye solution at a lower temp and put soap in the frig to prevent it from getting hot enough to gel. Reducing the heat slows saponification which is why it takes longer for the oils to use up the lye and you may still have zapping in the batch a day or longer. When it doesn't gel, the soap is more opaque, creamier looking and colorants tend to be softer. I've noticed my ungelled soaps are always softer than gelled but over time they harden up. I can't say I've ever noticed them getting as hard as gelled batches but this isn't a problem, IMO. Mainly it's personal preference on whether to gel or not gel, some people like the look and texture of gelled soap and some people like the look and texture of ungelled soap.
Almost everyone doesn't like partially gelled soap.
There has been a lot of discussions about gelling versus non-gelling soap in the CP section. You can search and find more info (probably better explained than I've done here).
A problem with soaping cooler (around 100 degrees) is some of the oils like coconut or palm or butters can start to resolidify. This can cause the batch to start to thicken and you might think you have achieved trace. This is called false trace. I've had this happen to me. The batch thickened up, I poured it into the mold and it started to separate within a few minutes. I was not happy. I ended up pouring into a crockpot and warming the batch to make sure it saponified. It turned out okay and fortunately the milk didn't scorch. I was lucky.
Again, fragrance oils can cause a batch to heat up and you can't totally prevent some gelling even with the batch placed in a frig.
HTH
You're welcome! Nah...they haven't committed me yet but family is trying.
I'm just passing on info I've gotten from books and on the forum. Of course, I tend to simplify it whereas other people can tell you more about the chemistry. If you search through the CP section, you'll find numerous discussions about gelling vs not gelling. People go into a lot more detail about the differences and why they prefer one over the other.
I'm just passing on info I've gotten from books and on the forum. Of course, I tend to simplify it whereas other people can tell you more about the chemistry. If you search through the CP section, you'll find numerous discussions about gelling vs not gelling. People go into a lot more detail about the differences and why they prefer one over the other.
cerelife
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- Nov 14, 2010
- Messages
- 955
- Reaction score
- 1,346
I'm one of those people who prefer to soap hot and gel. I've made a few ungelled batches, but I hate the "crumblies." As Hazel said it's a personal preference. I should also mention that I have zero interest in coloring my soaps...I find it facinating to see how the FO's react! Some of my soaps have turned purple, some are white as snow, and others are a rich chocolate brown. I keep notes to see what the different oils/butters/ FO's bring to my soaps.
I made an experimental batch of "Super Decadent Soap" a couple of weeks ago that had a ton of hard butters in it and soaped at around 150 degees to keep the butters in liquid form. I tried one of the end pieces today and it was divine! Can't wait to see what is's like after a full cure...
I made an experimental batch of "Super Decadent Soap" a couple of weeks ago that had a ton of hard butters in it and soaped at around 150 degees to keep the butters in liquid form. I tried one of the end pieces today and it was divine! Can't wait to see what is's like after a full cure...
cerelife -
That does sound lovely. I generally don't use butters in any batches except occasionally some shea. I did try cocoa butter once but I didn't like it. Maybe it wasn't the CB, maybe I just formulated a lousy recipe.
That does sound lovely. I generally don't use butters in any batches except occasionally some shea. I did try cocoa butter once but I didn't like it. Maybe it wasn't the CB, maybe I just formulated a lousy recipe.
cerelife ......you've sparked yet another interest!! it's non stop with soaping, I love it!! And ladies thank you very [/b]much...my pretty-ish batch IS becoming milder daily!! WHEW!!!! or as the French say OUAF!! 
cerelife
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- Nov 14, 2010
- Messages
- 955
- Reaction score
- 1,346
PM me your address if ya'll want to try a bar of the "Super Decadent Soap" when it's fully cured. I used Cocoa Butter, Shea Butter AND Mango Butter in this recipe! I've always been a science major, and one of the things I love about making soap as a hobby is pushing the limits just to see what will happen...but this recipe is looking pretty sweet so far
