Funky Smell

[Regalitofatal]

Hello there! I am new to the forum and new to soapmaking. I hope I'm not posting a repeat question but I couldn't find my question anywhere

I made an olive oil/coconut oil liquid Castile soap and it's been a few days since I placed the diluted product in my clean glass jars.... but it just has this funky smell. I'm not sure how to describe it. I don't know what lye smells like to recognize it for comparison. It smells like...... a foot. Or a dirty sock

Is soap with these ingredients supposed to smell? All ingredients were fresh. Could it be because it cooked too long? It doesn't smell "burnt," just... off. I read somewhere that EVOO might contribute but I wouldn't think it would make it a BAD smell

I am under the impression that liquid Castile soap isn't supposed to smell at all. I'm hoping I can still sell what I made but I won't want to if it smells bad. Will it go away the longer it sits in the jars? Any help would be appreciated.

 

[lenarenee]

All of my high olive oil liquid soaps smell like olive oil.

You may have one or more issues here:

age of oil, source of olive oil (most brands are not 100% pure but are adulterated with cheaper canola or soybean), cooking it too long can definitely make if smell off (been there), possible transfer of scent from jar if they've been used before.

Brace yourself, you're about to be told no newbie soap maker should be selling soap. I'll leave those comments for those who sell; I am only a hobbyist. However, as a hobbyist I wouldn't even give away a product with a mysterious bad smell.

 

[earlene]

First, I wouldn't expect liquid soap to smell like a dirty sock, but can't tell you why it does.

Second, though, I'm concerned that you plan to sell the very first liquid soap you've ever made. It takes time and practice to learn how to make soap that is safe and of good quality. Granted I am not an LS expert, or even a bar soap expert, but as a hobbyist and a consumer, I do worry about someone making a product from scratch (as opposed to a M&P from a safe soap base) planning to sell without sufficient effort put into research and development.

Please forgive me if you are an experienced soap maker with years of experience making CP soap, just planning to branch out. And welcome to the forum.

So the more experienced Liquid Soapers on the forum to help you troubleshoot this formula, they would probably like more information, such as:
exact recipe
process in detail (including how long and at what approximate temperature you overcooked the soap).

 

[The Efficacious Gentleman]

And when you do list the ingredients etc, please also let us know what sort of water you used. I'm wondering if there might be something there.

As an aside, my first liquid soap smelled like hippies, but that's because I used nag champa to scent it

 

[Susie]

Please give the entire recipe, in weights, as well as any additives, process method, etc. We can't troubleshoot without information.

Also, what country do you live in? I ask because of regulations regarding selling soap, and any special water conditions that might affect the scent of the soap.

And no, you don't need to be selling soap until you can troubleshoot by yourself. We are happy to help, mind you, but you are far too inexperienced to sell liquid soap. You don't even know what your shelf life is yet.

 

[Regalitofatal]

Brace yourself, you're about to be told no newbie soap maker should be selling soap. I'll leave those comments for those who sell; I am only a hobbyist. However, as a hobbyist I wouldn't even give away a product with a mysterious bad smell.

Well, you did warn me

I have no problem waiting till I have it down. I'm here to learn after all. My main question was answered though, if it should smell or not so thanks everyone.

I used:
8 oz EVOO (best till 4/2018 )
5.3 oz Coconut Oil
3.11 oz KOH flakes
10.6 oz distilled water

Followed the directions from Here to cook till the paste reached translucent stage. It didn't pass the clarity test until after 7 hours and finally using distilled water instead of tap. If I used distilled at the beginning it may have shown I was done 6 hours prior. First couple hours the crock pot was on high, then I turned it down to medium. Didn't smell too much in the crock pot and as I mentioned, the glass jars were clean (and odorless).

Diluted the paste with 5.5 cups distilled water. Diluted well, though noticed a skin at the top once I poured it in the jar, so as the recipe said I added another .75 cup back in the crock to further dilute the paste and had no more problems with skin. After it fully dissolved, it cooled a short while and went back in the jars.

Also the lye I used on the bottle is written 86-92%. Checked it through SoapCalc using 90% KOH option

Im in the US

 

[Susie]

OK, there is no need to cook your paste at all. You probably over cooked the soap. It can indeed smell funky after being over cooked. I rarely tell people to toss soap, but I can't find any way to get rid of the overcooked smell. However, let a few more people weigh in on what they think the smell is, first, in case you can save it. Yes, you probably should have used distilled water.

If you read this thread, go to post #8, that is the best and easiest hand soap, ever. (Read the rest of the thread, also, to jump start your liquid soap education.)

http://www.soapmakingforum.com/showthread.php?t=46114

 

[Regalitofatal]

OK, there is no need to cook your paste at all. You probably over cooked the soap. It can indeed smell funky after being over cooked. I rarely tell people to toss soap, but I can't find any way to get rid of the overcooked smell. However, let a few more people weigh in on what they think the smell is, first, in case you can save it. Yes, you probably should have used distilled water.

If you read this thread, go to post #8, that is the best and easiest hand soap, ever. (Read the rest of the thread, also, to jump start your liquid soap education.)

http://www.soapmakingforum.com/showthread.php?t=46114

Thanks for the tip. Is it still possible to make a successful soap like the one in the video in your link with no glycerin (just EO, CO, and lye/water)?

I see you've mentioned on other posts that the soap paste doesn't need to be cooked and the paste will naturally come about. Which makes me wonder then, why would a recipe even request a liquid soap paste be cooked if it's not necessary? Unless it's supposed to speed things up but that doesn't seem to be the case

 

[IrishLass]

Welcome Regalitofatal! :wave:

I won't go into the premature selling issues since those seem have been well-addressed already. For the backstory on why that is such a hot-button issue on our forum, though, I refer you to our SMF Culture/Tone stickie here.

I agree with the others- liquid soap should not smell like stinky feet. :sick:

Mine always has a definite aroma to it in its natural/unscented state, but it is a light, pleasant, soapy smell that completely disappears when scent is added to it.

I was just reading through the blog post where you got your recipe, and although there's a lot of good/sound info to be found therein, it is peppered here and there with some not-so-sound info, such as her option of mixing the lye solution in heavy-duty glass for example (see point #4 in that same Culture/Tone link I gave you above). Her stainless steel suggestion is a much better option.

Also, as Susie said - there's absolutely no need to cook liquid soap batter to the paste stage. There's also no need for a clarity test to tell when the paste is ready for dilution for that matter either. There's an easier, less time consuming test called the 'zap test' . Although one can certainly make liquid soap the way spelled out in the blog, there are much less fussy, less problematic ways that will produce the same aimed-for results in the end, such as the way in the link Susie provided.

For another way, here is a link to Susie's method: http://www.soapmakingforum.com/showthread.php?t=49852&highlight=cold


IrishLass

 

[IrishLass]

Thanks for the tip. Is it still possible to make a successful soap like the one in the video in your link with no glycerin (just EO, CO, and lye/water)?

Yes. Just use water instead of glycerin.

I see you've mentioned on other posts that the soap paste doesn't need to be cooked and the paste will naturally come about. Which makes me wonder then, why would a recipe even request a liquid soap paste be cooked if it's not necessary? Unless it's supposed to speed things up but that doesn't seem to be the case

Cooking to the paste stage is from an older method known as the Failor method (after Catherine Failor who pioneered the homemade liquid soap-making movement) several years ago. Since that time, it has been discovered that cooking is not necessary. As you just found out, though, outdated info dies hard on the internet. That's why I love the soap-making forums, where new ways are always being tested out and old info is always being updated/revised.


IrishLass

 

[DeeAnna]

"...Which makes me wonder then, why would a recipe even request a liquid soap paste be cooked if it's not necessary? Unless it's supposed to speed things up..."

I think the concept of cooking HP soap and liquid soap paste for hours comes from the idea that the soap must not blush pink when a drop of phenolphthalein is put on a dab of the paste. It can take hours of cooking to get soap to that point, and I'm not at all sure the long cook is doing anything other than adding aggravation and cost.

This idea seems to be entrenched in the soaping culture, as Irish Lass noted. I belong to a facebook group for liquid soapers and my suggestion that they try a no-cook method for liquid soap is met with disbelief. This has happened repeatedly, so when someone whines now about liquid soap making being so hard to do, I just shake my head and move on to the next post.

What I suspect is happening is the hours of cooking alter the physical structure of the soap paste and greatly reduces its water content. At that point, the soap paste is so concentrated and structured so it cannot chemically react with the phenol-p, so the indicator drops don't turn color. If you would dilute this soap paste and do a proper pH test on the diluted soap, it would still turn the phenol-p pink -- and that's a normal thing for a lye-based soap.

The real goal is to get all of the KOH (or NaOH) consumed by saponification, not to pass some weird phenol-p test that would give a real chemist a bad case of indigestion. I imagine the phenol-p test was designed to avoid doing a zap test on possibly raw soap batter, and that's a reasonable concern to have! But what's wrong with getting the soap batter to a stable trace, let it saponify undisturbed for a day or so, and then cautiously test for zap? Saponification is largely done within an hour if sufficient heat and/or glycerin is used, based on my willingness to (very carefully!) do a zap test on freshly-made soap. IMO this "hands off for a day" method is every bit as safe and is much less aggravating and troublesome as the "cook and hover for hours" method.

***

I think as the water content goes up and glycerin content goes down in a liquid soap recipe, it can be a little harder for me to get the batter to a stable trace so I can then ignore it. Glycerin seems to accelerate things. I like to make sure my ingredients are toasty warm to start with -- maybe 170 to 180 degrees F to start. That is especially helpful when using all water and no glycerin or up to 2 parts water and 1 of glycerin.

I made LS paste last week with 2 parts water and 1 part glycerin with no heating other than getting the starting ingredients hot enough. The soap was zap free and ready for dilution about an hour after the initial mixing.

 

[lenarenee]

If she makes liquid soap without glycerin, won't the soap end up very thin? (I've only used the IL and Susie method!)

 

[Susie]

It will end up thinner than if she uses it. However, if you use a foamer, like I do, then it is a moot point, because you are going to have to thin it yet further regardless.

I use glycerin to:
1. Hasten trace. I could also grate up 0.5 oz of bar soap to do the same thing.
2. Thicken the soap when I am giving it to someone who is not going to use it in a foamer bottle.

 

[fuzz-juzz]

I've given up on LS.
I've tried both, HP and CP and can't get rid of that funky smell. It could be the olive oil I'm using but I doubt it. I think it's jyst the nature of LS and most soapers don't mind it.
It also reacts funny to some FOs so test before putting FO in the whole lot.

 

[DeeAnna]

Actually I don't see a great amount if difference in the thickness of water-only vs. water-glycerin. I do note a slight (very slight) reduction in lather as the glycerin content goes up.

 

[Susie]

I am specifically referring to the first dilution thickness. I am unable to get that honey consistency any other way. If you are able to, please share! I would much rather not use the glycerin, as the shipping kills me every time.

 

[Dahila]

I have the same expierence as DeeAnna in LSFG and now I do not even check the posts there. I use 1 part of water to dissolve my KOH, then add two parts of gliceryn to lightly cooled KoH water then add it to oils. works perfectly and not burned gliceyn anymore, which btw stinks like urine, when burned

 

[DeeAnna]

I made a batch of water-only LS this morning using a variation of IL/Carrie's recipe --

I subbed HO sunflower (45%) + avocado (20%) for the olive but stuck with the usual %'s of coconut (25%) and castor (10%). 2% superfat. Recipe was adjusted for the KOH purity. Used distilled water. Added EDTA at 0.5% of the fat weight, but otherwise didn't use any other additives.

I warmed the ingredients to 165-170 deg F and blended the batter to a light trace with stick blending and hand stirring (exactly like you'd do with CP soap made with NaOH). Once at trace, I covered my soap pot with a towel to keep in the heat and let it do its thing. I hand stirred a couple of times when I thought about it just to make myself feel better.

The paste become taffy thick and zap free in less than 45 minutes. It doesn't look like the usual "cooked for hours" paste -- it's an ivory or yellowish white, not transparent gold -- but that's fine with me. It was about 150 deg F at that point. I decided to dilute half of the paste while it was warm and save the other half for another day. I added sodium lactate at 3% of the paste weight (I think IL does 3% of the water weight, but hey at least I remembered to add it!), and am gradually adding distilled water to dilute.

The soap has a mild "chemical" odor that I associate with soap that has no added scent. I don't find it to be strong nor objectionable, but I wouldn't wear it as a perfume either. I will probably add fragrance at 1% to 2% of the diluted soap weight and that should mask this odor completely.

Susie -- I'll let ya know what thickness the soap is when I get there.

 

[BattleGnome]

I made the water version using olive/ coconut/castor a few weeks ago.

I would consider the diluted liquid thin, I needed 1.5 water:1 paste. It was my first batch so all I have to compare is commercial soap.


Slightly unrelated question, the 25% coconut is a bit high for my hands (though my husband loves it) would using glycerin offset the cleansing I feel without comprising what my husband likes? I'm pretty sure the cleansing is part of what he likes. I'd rather not have multiple soap dispensers in the bathroom if I can avoid it.