fixing lye heavy liquid soap

[poramor]

Hi, I´m new to liquid soap making and would like some help, I made a couple of batches of castille soap, following a recipe and did very well but this last soap I experimented and apparently have too much lye in the formula. I cooked the ingredients, got to the stage of clarity test and, since the sample cleared up (though later it got cloudy), I went ahead and diluted and even added eos. The soap is clear but 1. my hands itch when I try it, 2. my hands remain soapy though I use a lot of water to wash them, 3. the soap is unusually thick and sticky. My question is how do I fix it at this stage. If I add more oil, do I have to cook it again? can I solve this adding citric acid? Thank you for your help...

 

[DeeAnna]

Did you zap test this soap? That will confirm whether the soap is lye heavy or not. At this point, it sounds like the soap very well might be, but if it's not, you could be fixing a problem that doesn't exist.

Since you already diluted the soap, it may be tough to add fats to use up the excess KOH. I'd probably use boric acid or citric acid to neutralize instead. If you use citric acid, remember it is very easy to over neutralize with citric acid and the neutralization process can take a bit of time, so be patient. Over neutralizing will create a whole new set of problems.

To neutralize, I'd make a solution of, oh, say about 20% citric acid in water. Neutralize a sample of the diluted soap. Scale up the dosage needed for the sample to estimate the amount of solution needed to neutralize the rest of the soap. I'd not add the whole amount of solution, however. Add 1/2 to 3/4 of what you think you need and see how that works. You can always add more acid if needed.

 

[poramor]

Thanks so much for your help DeeAnna! I tried the zap test and sure enough, I got zapped. I checked the numbers in soapcalc.net and the level of 90% KOH I used comes out to be ok, even with 5% super fat but I must have misread my formula at some point. I plan to follow your advice and try different quantities of citric acid solution on several samples and see the results. Would you think the fact that its so difficult to get rid of the soapy feeling in my hands when I rinse out the soap and the thickness and "stickyness# of the liquid soap is a consequence of the excess alcalinity?

 

[DeeAnna]

My guess on the soapy feeling is that the excess lye is breaking down your skin and the "soapy" slickness comes from damaged skin cells.

If you use the soap on your body, your skin will feel unusually itchy as it dries. If you use the soap on just your hands, your fingertips may feel as rough as medium-grit sandpaper after your skin dries.

If you've ever gotten a bit of bleach on your skin, your skin will also feel slick or soapy as you rinse off the bleach. Same thing.

 

[Marc Gaspard]

Hello DeeAnna, i guess it is a similar problem for me. All the indications briefed are in my first liquid batch I made with coconut oil. I did the zap test and i can feel the zap. (pH paper is showing readings in the range of 10-11). Does it mean that the soap i prepared is not ready to use. Can this infer that there is un-reacted Potassium hydroxide.

 

[cmzaha]

ph paper is quite un-reliable, but probably better with liquid soap, anyway 10-11 is a normal ph for soap. I would wonder if you are feeling zap or the normal sting of soap.

 

[DeeAnna]

It doesn't really matter what the pH strip says -- as Carolyn says, pH strips are unreliable and often say the pH is lower than it really is. The key is whether the soap zaps. If it does, the soap is not safe for use on the skin.

Bear in mind that some soap -- and soap high in coconut oil is one -- can taste bad enough to give the impression the soap is zappy, but a real zap feels like a static shock on your tongue -- immediate, unmistakable. If the sensation builds over a short time or if you find yourself wondering "is it? or isn't it?" then it's likely not a zap.

 

[Marc Gaspard]

Thank you guys, it was a zap. Yesterday night I poured it into a bottle and today morning it has become a gel now! Also I am not comfortable with the quality. If I wash my hands with it, it gives a (very) dry feeling after and can smell alkaline. Can you suggest if we can convert this batch into a laundry detergent liquid ? if so, can you send some links or ideas ?

 

[DeeAnna]

I'm not surprised to hear a coconut oil soap is harsh. And one that is lye heavy is going to be harsh no matter what blend of fats you use. That's kind of the nature of that beast.

If you want to use it in laundry, it's not rocket science -- just use it as-is. Most of the blogger recipes add other ingredients, but you don't have to do that. The blogger recipes try to find a way to combine soap with borax and/or washing soda into one product (aka laundry butter) but that's not strictly necessary. I am fairly certain many of those all-in-one laundry butter recipes are less effective than people realize.

You will have to experiment with the dosage of soap to see what works best for you. When I use my dry laundry mix, I add about 10 grams of pure soap to each load (pure soap = fat wt + lye wt). If your LS is around 30% pure soap (just making a guess here), that would translate to about 30 grams of diluted LS. Maybe someone on SMF who uses coconut oil liquid soap for laundry will have better advice to offer, however. If not, start a new thread with that as the specific subject line, and you are likely to get more help that way.

I'd also add washing soda to help bind up hard water minerals, following instructions on the box. Unless your water is very, very soft, your soap will lose a lot of its effectiveness due to hard water minerals. That's why most laundry soap today is made from synthetic detergents -- they stay effective in hard water.

 

[poramor]

Hello Dee Anna and fellow forum members. So, I followed DeeAnna's instructions, made a 20% citric acid solution and tried it on several samples. I found I could add up to 7.5% of thethe solution to the samples without it turning cloudy so I went ahead with bigger amounts. I divided the 15 kilos I Had of diluted liquid soap into five jars with 3 kilos each. To the first jar I added 5% (150 grams) of c.a. solution and 7.5% (225 grams) to the rest. They all cleared up nicely but the first jar with only 150grams added remained harsh and lye heavy. The other jars came out very well with clear and not harsh at all, so I went ahead and added the 75 grams to the first jar (after testing with a small sample) but here's my problem. It turned cloudy and remained so after more than 48 hours. It look like porridge . How can I fix this? ADDING water? Heating the jar?

 

[DeeAnna]

The first jar might not have had quite the same chemical composition as the other jars. It may be that you have added too much citric acid to that one, and that's why it's cloudy. The answer is not more water -- you'd need to add KOH to neutralize the excess acid.

 

[poramor]

Thanks again DeeAnna! How do I go about ADDING more KOH? I would think the method would be similar to when I added the citric acid: Make a KOH solution (what concentration should I use?). Try first on samples... Is that right?

 

[DeeAnna]

You can mix a little KOH with water and add the solution to the soap -- it's the most safety conscious method. I have learned if you only need a little bit of extra KOH that you can add the dry alkali directly to the diluted soap and gently stir to dissolve. This won't work well with paste, but it works nicely with diluted LS. It takes a little time for KOH to react with excess acid, so make an adjustment and then wait a bit. I often let it sit for a day or so, just to be sure.

So how much KOH might you need? Remember that 10 g citric acid neutralizes 8.42 g KOH. From your Post #10, you know 30 grams of citric (150 g of 20% citric solution) was not quite enough and 45 g citric (225 g of 20% citric solution) was too much. The difference is 15 g citric. The KOH to neutralize all 15 g citric = 8.42 / 10 X 15 = 12.6 g KOH. So you need something less than 12.6 g KOH on a dry basis to adjust the soap so it doesn't have excess acid.

I don't worry about the KOH purity being less than 100% during this process -- I just add enough KOH to fix the problem.

 

[Marc Gaspard]

I'm not surprised to hear a coconut oil soap is harsh. And one that is lye heavy is going to be harsh no matter what blend of fats you use. That's kind of the nature of that beast.

If you want to use it in laundry, it's not rocket science -- just use it as-is. Most of the blogger recipes add other ingredients, but you don't have to do that. The blogger recipes try to find a way to combine soap with borax and/or washing soda into one product (aka laundry butter) but that's not strictly necessary. I am fairly certain many of those all-in-one laundry butter recipes are less effective than people realize.

You will have to experiment with the dosage of soap to see what works best for you. When I use my dry laundry mix, I add about 10 grams of pure soap to each load (pure soap = fat wt + lye wt). If your LS is around 30% pure soap (just making a guess here), that would translate to about 30 grams of diluted LS. Maybe someone on SMF who uses coconut oil liquid soap for laundry will have better advice to offer, however. If not, start a new thread with that as the specific subject line, and you are likely to get more help that way.

I'd also add washing soda to help bind up hard water minerals, following instructions on the box. Unless your water is very, very soft, your soap will lose a lot of its effectiveness due to hard water minerals. That's why most laundry soap today is made from synthetic detergents -- they stay effective in hard water.

thank you DeeAnna.. After reading your suggestion, was a bit comfortable and did the following. 1) Used it in body after diluting. The lather was good and i can see a difference between the soap i am using and the liquid soap i prepared. Actually i am satisfied. 2) Used it as a shave balm, felt a burning (slightly) sensation, and washed off immediately 3) Left it for couple of days and used it as a shampoo. I could feel a roughness after washing it off, but once my hair was dry, it was better than the shampoo I buy 4) I did try using it in laundry and it works fine also - Overall I am happy with the results and probably, will use them up after leaving it as it is to cure for a while. Thanks for the encouragement

ph paper is quite un-reliable, but probably better with liquid soap, anyway 10-11 is a normal ph for soap. I would wonder if you are feeling zap or the normal sting of soap.

thank you.. yes i did not rely on the pH paper completely, but could feel the zap

 

[desiredcreations]

Thanks for the tip about citric acid. My latest liquid soap batch is definitely lye-heavy, paper tested or not. Are other acids not recommended. I've got muriatic acid that I can dilute but not sure what the salt by-products would be.