First time, HP oven method ... got some questions!

[big_onion]

Hi there! First time visiting and posting!

We feed our dogs raw, and the lamb ribs we've been getting have been super fatty -- I collected and rendered down about 5 lbs of tallow! So, of course, I figured it'd be great to make some soap with.

I used a 70/30 mix of lamb tallow and coconut oil for about a 2lb batch, and used the oven HP method from here: http://www.teachsoap.com/ohp.html

Everything went pretty well, but I think I overcooked it. After I tested it and didn't get zapped, I thought that it didn't look right (too liquidy) so I left it in for another 15 mins or so. When I let it cooled to try and mix in some oils it got really dry and crumbly.

So, my questions!

1) Lots of recipes say, "Mix your lye, add to the oils." Call this a dumb question, but what the heck do I do with the container that had the lye/water in it? I ended up pouring in some vinegar and slowly adding water. Lye scares the crap out of me, and no recipe/tutorial has any instructions on dealing with the containers or cleanup.

2) How can I tell it's a good time to stop cooking? Should there be absolutely no zap? If by the time there's no zap, is there a way I can tell if I might need to add a little more oil?

3) I tried adding some fragrance a couple of times while it was cooling, but it just cooked away. Am I looking for a specific temperature to add the oils, or is it more of a certain point in the process?

4) Aaaaand, one more! I have a ton of herbs in the garden. Lemon balm, mints, patchouli, etc. I've tried some stovetop distilling to get some oils, but it's just not an effective way to do it (especially lemon balm, which apparently only produces .015% by weight). I found some place that recommended making a strong tea from the herbs, then using that in place of the water for the lye/water mix. I tried this, and got absolutely no hint of the herbs. Any recommendations on how I can make use of these? Oil infusion? Dried and mixed in at the end?

Thanks a lot -- glad I found you all. As long as I get these lamb bones and have an ample supply of fat from them I'll probably keep doing this, and for $1/lb, I'm gonna keep on buying them!

PS - My favorite part of the process? Clean up: THE POT ALREADY HAD SOAP IN IT!

 

[Sunny]

I've only done HP in a crock pot, it's really easy to do. Here's my advice to keep it from getting too dry and crumbly ... When it starts to look waxy, pinch a bit between your fingers and roll around to cool, then zap test... if it doesn't zap, go ahead and pour in your mold. Don't wait for it to cool.

When I'm done with my lye/water cup I rinse it with water, then wash with soap and water like a regular dish. Don't be afraid of lye.

(okay, do be afraid of lye, but also be conscious of what it will do to you. Your hand isn't going to fall off if you get a drop on it. It does hurt! But as long as you don't dump it all over yourself, you'll be okay. I don't want to seem careless or nonchalant about the dangers of lye but some people just seem terrified... if you come in contact with it, wash it off with soap and water as quickly as you can and stay away from vinegar.)

Keep in mind lye is sold as a drain opener... it is okay to put a little of it down the drain. You don't have to neutralize it.

You shouldn't really need to add more oil to your HP usually, just use the method I talked about above and you should be fine. Don't wait for it to cool!

You'll get conflicting information about this.. but NO, it doesn't matter a ton what temperature you add your fragrance at. Cooler is better so the FO doesn't evaporate from the heat but if you let your soap cool too much you won't be able to mix it in. I really suggest using a crock pot for HP, it's so much easier. Just unplug the crock, let it sit for a little bit, then add FO and jam the soap into a mold.
The most important part is to make sure you're using enough FO. Most FO's are good to use at 1 ounce of fragrance to 1 lb of OILS in your recipe. You can add the fo near the end of your cook.

You're not getting any herb scent because the lye eats it all up. That's just the way it is! If you want, you can grind up the herbs and add to the soap for texture but the smell will not come through. Your best bet is to just stick to essential oils or fragrance oils instead.

Hope this helps you out some!

 

[big_onion]

I would definitely have liked to use a crock pot -- I've been trying to find a cheap used one online somewhere. It certainly seems easier than dealing with this stuff in the oven!

Thanks for the tips with the lye. I'm sure it's not something to worry too much about, but I have a small army of cats and dogs so I try and be extra careful. I'm just thrilled I was able to find lye to begin with!

I didn't even think that it had to do with the amount of fragrance. I had separated the 2lb batch into a couple of smaller amounts to try different fragrances, but I might just not have been putting enough in. I like that plain ol' soap smell, so no big loss!

I figured the lye would've eaten the stuff in the herbal tea, but it was worth a shot.

If the soap I made is too crumbly/flaky after it sits, can I melt it back down and maybe add a bit more oil? Or should it be mostly okay to just go ahead and use?

Thanks for all the advice!

 

[Sunny]

If you want to try to melt it back down, go ahead. I hate doing that sort of thing (rebatching) because it's a pain in the butt. But yes, you can add a teeny bit more oil or water, and you can add extra scent if you want to.

As long as it doesn't zap you, it is okay to use still. Make sure you cure your HP at least 2 weeks, better at 4 weeks. It becomes much milder and the quality improves with time.

 

[SudsyKat]

I don't want to seem careless or nonchalant about the dangers of lye but some people just seem terrified... if you come in contact with it, wash it off with soap and water as quickly as you can and stay away from vinegar.)

I'm a newbie who hasn't even made a batch yet, though I've been reading and researching feverishly - I'm really looking forward to making my first batch this weekend. So, Tasha - I'm confused by your comment about vinegar. I thought I was supposed to keep vinegar on hand because it neutralizes lye. Why do you suggest that I stay away from it if I come in contact with lye? Thanks for your help! :?:

 

[nattynoo]

You can use your fresh herbs to do an oil infusion.
Put the fresh herbs in some olive oil in a pot on the stove for a couple of hours. On low. Strain afterwards. Store in a clean dry jar away from light.
I'm not sure how much comes thru in soap after the lye hits it. I don't use it in soap. I save it for special...like for balm.
I like to put chopped/fresh ingredients in after light trace...I'm a cold process (CP) girl though.

 

[Muzhik]

I don't want to seem careless or nonchalant about the dangers of lye but some people just seem terrified... if you come in contact with it, wash it off with soap and water as quickly as you can and stay away from vinegar.)

I'm a newbie who hasn't even made a batch yet, though I've been reading and researching feverishly - I'm really looking forward to making my first batch this weekend. So, Tasha - I'm confused by your comment about vinegar. I thought I was supposed to keep vinegar on hand because it neutralizes lye. Why do you suggest that I stay away from it if I come in contact with lye? Thanks for your help! :?:

Lye is a base, vinegar is an acid. In theory, the vinegar would neutralize the lye; but in doing so it will generate heat. How much heat I don't know -- I imagine it depends on the amount and strength of the lye. If you spill the lye on the floor, then yes, use the vinegar to neutralize it; but if you've spilled some on your hands or your arms, rinse it off with cool water and then use some soap on the area to make sure it's all gone.

 

[SudsyKat]

Okay - thanks!

Thanks for the clarification. Good to know!

 

[Sunny]

So, Tasha - I'm confused by your comment about vinegar. I thought I was supposed to keep vinegar on hand because it neutralizes lye. Why do you suggest that I stay away from it if I come in contact with lye? Thanks for your help! :?:

What Muzhik said - if you have lye on your skin, and use vinegar, it just burns you worse (chemical reaction between lye and vinegar). So just rinse it off with cool water.

If you spill it on the counter, or something like that, feel free to use vinegar, but on skin, just water is fine.

I'm not super great at explaining things so I hope that made sense.

 

[carebear]

Yep, the reaction between the vinegar and the lye (acid + base) generates heat so it's ouchy. Plus add in that vinegar freaking stings a burn and you have double trouble.

first rule - DILUTE DILUTE DILUTE.

(I've read a study where treating with vinegar minimized damage in a test case, but you will have a hard time IN MY ACTUAL EXPERIENCE allowing someone or yourself to use the vinegar because it freaking STINGS BURNS OW OW OW OW!!!).

If I get raw soap on my skin I do follow up by washing with soap and water to be sure I've removed all the oils that might be trapping some lye but if I just get lye solution on me, I don't. Course I've never had a major lye splash so perhaps in that case.... I dunno.

 

[IrishLass]

(I've read a study where treating with vinegar minimized damage in a test case, but you will have a hard time IN MY ACTUAL EXPERIENCE allowing someone or yourself to use the vinegar because it freaking STINGS BURNS OW OW OW OW!!!).

-- I imagine it depends on the amount and strength of the lye.

I'm just talking about my own experience, but until I gleaned from others to dilute with water, I had simply followed the advice of others and always used vinegar, which by the way worked for me on the minor spills of raw soap that I would sometimes get with overzealous stirring of my soap batter. I would feel my arm tingling and burning and look down to see a spot of raw batter there and would immediately spray it down and clean it off with my handy spray-bottle of vinegar. The burning and tingling would immediately cease upon contact, and any redsidual redness present would totally disappear within a few minutes.

In coming to understand more about chemical reactions and the generation of heat, and also reading about the positive/negative reactions different people have experienced with lye/vinegar, I am supposing my positive experience with vinegar probably had a lot to do with the amount and strength of the lye in the batter that splashed on me, and possibly also where on my body the contact occurred? I'm thinking it was probably dilute enough for the skin on my arm to experience immediate relief and normalization of skin appearance with the application of vinegar instead of increased pain and redness.

Since it's hard to predict these things, though (how the weakness/strength of the amount of lye that hits you will react to vinegar, and also how the body part it hits will react), it looks like the safest bet is to dilute with plenty of water, but I wonder if it would be even better to dilute with water first and then hit with vinegar for good measure?

IrishLass

 

[Muzhik]

IrishLass, I think the key there is your statement that you experienced "raw soap" landing on your arm. If this has happened after you've added the lye to the oils, then the saponification process has already begun breaking down and diluting the lye. It's not such an issue.

I believe most people are more concerned about lye spills that occur after the lye is added to the water, but before the lye solution is added to the oil. Say, for example, you get careless pouring the lye solution into the oil and you spill some on the counter, which also splashes onto your hand. If that were the case then you should immediately rinse your hand with cool water, then use vinegar to neutralize the lye on the counter.

After washing your hands with cool water and soap, you would then PUT YOUR RUBBER GLOVES ON LIKE YOU SHOULD HAVE BEEN WEARING IN THE FIRST PLACE and proceed to mop up the (hopefully) neutralized lye on the counter.

BTW, you ARE wearing full goggles, not just wrap-arounds, to protect your eyes, aren't you?

 

[Ken.goatsoap]

Lets see if I can explain it on how this all works... Basically want to see if I remember it from Chem classes.

If you add an Acid(Vinegar) to a Base(Lye), you will get a reaction with heat...Think adding lye to water. But, when you add an acid to a base...you need to make sure you are adding equal amount of each other. So, if you use Vinegar just use it on Lye spills...as you might end up with a chemical burn(from the lye plus, a chem on top of it from the acid in the vinegar)

Now, on the raw soap issue. Vinegar will work, with getting raw soap on yourself. As, most raw soap, its only 10% NaOH, so, it is diluted already by 90%. So, you are VERY safe of using just tap water and soap for the removal of raw soap. As, it does not have the NaOH level to really give you a chemical burn, it will burn you, but, not to the extreme of pure NaOH beads.

Also, a famous saying in chemical labs is....the solution to pollution is dilution.

Ken

 

[IrishLass]

Thank you Muzhik and Ken.goatsoap. That helped to clear up with finality any left-over fuzziness about the lye/vinegar issue I was having. It's just that I had heard it preached for so long by other soapers to use vinegar, and when I did and it worked like a charm, well, it was instantly solidified in my mind as the thing to do. Then others came along and said- 'No! Use water instead!"- I did a double-take and said, 'Huh? But..but...vinegar worked so well for me?' Thank you both for putting my conflicted thoughts to bed for me once and for all.

Well, now that we got that cleared up ....

After washing your hands with cool water and soap, you would then PUT YOUR RUBBER GLOVES ON LIKE YOU SHOULD HAVE BEEN WEARING IN THE FIRST PLACE and proceed to mop up the (hopefully) neutralized lye on the counter.

BTW, you ARE wearing full goggles, not just wrap-arounds, to protect your eyes, aren't you?

If that was directed at me, then, yes, you bet your bippy I do! :wink: Granted, my arms may not always be fully covered around the elbow area, but I always wear rubber gloves, and I always wear complete goggles that fit completely snug to my face. They are like standard soaping issue to me. I never soap without them.


IrishLass

 

[big_onion]

I found a great buy at Big Lots! last week -- a 6qt Crock Pot (the actual brand!) for $20. So, I gave this same recipe a try in the crockpot.

SO MUCH EASIER.

I did notice something, though, that might've been the reason for my overcooked soap. I'm not getting the same kind of "gel" that everyone seems to have in photographs. It bubbles up and around, but once I stir it has the consistency of ... frosting, maybe? I did the zap test and got nothing, so I know the lye is cooked out, and this morning I checked it and it looked fantastic.

Do you think it's the large amount of tallow? Or the tallow/coconut combination?

Thanks for everyone who offered some tips on here! I was definitely able to work with the lye without my OHMYGODIMIGHTDIE fear from the first time.

 

[Muzhik]

I found a great buy at Big Lots! last week -- a 6qt Crock Pot (the actual brand!) for $20. So, I gave this same recipe a try in the crockpot.

SO MUCH EASIER.

I did notice something, though, that might've been the reason for my overcooked soap. I'm not getting the same kind of "gel" that everyone seems to have in photographs. It bubbles up and around, but once I stir it has the consistency of ... frosting, maybe? I did the zap test and got nothing, so I know the lye is cooked out, and this morning I checked it and it looked fantastic.

Do you think it's the large amount of tallow? Or the tallow/coconut combination?

Thanks for everyone who offered some tips on here! I was definitely able to work with the lye without my OHMYGODIMIGHTDIE fear from the first time.

Big_Onion, I wonder if that's not so much the AMOUNT of tallow, but of using an animal fat in the first place. I ran into that experience this weekend when I made a soap that included both lard and butter. I didn't get the boiling liquid all the pictures of CPHP show; it just congealed into a translucent gel. I thought that maybe my "low" setting on my 20-yo crock pot was still too warm; I'll have to see what happens when I make an all-vegetable-oil soap.

 

[big_onion]

Muzhik,

See, I never got to that transparent stage. It just stayed a pretty thick white. Buttercream frosting was the only thing that came to mind when I was stirring it up.

It works, so I'm not complaining too much. I just know now when I do it to not cook so long and wait for that applesauce texture, since it won't come. Haha.

I do have to say this, though, this stuff lathers up great. A lot of folks say that tallow doesn't lather real well, but I think it does fantastic. (Although that part might be the coconut ... who knows. I'm still learning!)

I just hope we're able to keep getting these lamb ribs for our dogs, since that's where we get the fat from. I think the other night I rendered down about 10 lbs of it. For $1/lb, I really can't beat the price. (Although cutting it off the ribs, freezing it, grinding it, rendering it, filtering it ... that takes some time ... but still worth it!)

Let me know how the vegetable oils go ... I might do an olive oil soap for Christmas presents, but I'm going to try out this batch I made last night (added a bit of tea tree oil -- just enough to give it a hint of fragrance) on my family next week and see what they think.

 

[honor435]

If you use hp method, only use 1/2 of the fo, I only use .5 oz pp, it it plenty.