Feedback on recipe for sensitive skin

[Phteven]

All, my wife has very sensitive skin, and I’d like to make her some soap. I want to get it right, because she will be very unhappy if her skin gets dry, itchy or rashy. I can’t imagine why.

So, I’m going to make a CP soap and have been playing around on soapcalc.net. Please let me know if you have suggestions or recommendations. I would like to get this right the first time. I’m considering superfatting to 8% and using some activated charcoal to add a little color.


# √ Oil/Fat %
1 Coconut Oil, 76 deg 10%
2 Mango Seed Butter 20%
3 Avocado Oil 10%
4 Olive Oil 50%
5 Grapeseed Oil 10%

Soap Bar Quality Range Your Recipe
Hardness 29 - 54 30
Cleansing 12 - 22 7
Conditioning 44 - 69 67
Bubbly 14 - 46 7
Creamy 16 - 48 23
Iodine 41 - 70 74
INS 136 - 165 124

 

[MorpheusPA]

That's a lot of soft oils (70%, counting mango as hard), so it'll take forever to cure and have very slimy lather unless it's cured for...a year? More? Even my 2 year old high olive soaps are a bit slimy.

That may be what you want, and if so, go for it! It's not that it'll be unusable at four to six weeks, it just won't have much lather. Some people like that.

You can certainly add 1 tsp per pound of oils up to 5% colloidal oatmeal (Aveeno oatmeal bath is 100% colloidal oatmeal) to your soap. It makes it very soothing and I find it to be a great addition. 1 tsp honey per pound oils can also be nice (and you can use it with the oatmeal), and will add a little emollient to the mix.

If you'd rather have a less slimy, faster to set up soap, the following recipe might be useful:

Soft Oils: up to 50% (total of olive, grapeseed, avocado)
Coconut: 10%
Bulk Oils: down to 40% (lard, tallow, or palm; I find lard the most gentle).

 

[penelopejane]

Personally for really sensitive skin I’d make fragrance free 100% EVOO with a bit of salt and gel it.

If I was going to tweek your recipe I’d cut out the coconut, up the AO and think carefully about the grape seed oil. It makes a really soft single soap so those properties carry over. It is also prone to DOS.

The above tweeks bring it close to lindy’s shampoo bar which is an excellent gentle bar soap recipe for everything except hair (hair needs a different pH).

Have you seen this:
http://alchemyandashes.blogspot.com.au/2014/03/single-oil-soap-experiment-phase-3-one.html?m=1

Click through the links to see phase 1 and 2

 

[mx5inpenn]

You'll hear many varying opinions on this. There are quite a few others here that will probably agree with me on lard tho. I have very sensitive, dry skin and lard and avocado are my favorite oils. I like 55% lard, 15% coconut, 15% olive, 10% avocado and 5% castor. It makes for lots of fluffy, creamy bubbles. I can't get away with no moisturizer in the winter, but can in the summer.

 

[shunt2011]

I’m one who doesn’t like OO soap. I find it makes my skin feel tight. I would do high lard with a little CO, castor and the rest avocado. I don’t use grape seed but it would be okay at 10%.

 

[lenarenee]

Does she have any idea what she is sensitive to? Does she currently use store bought soap or has she tried handmade? (there are so many things people are sensitive too, colors, fragrance, oils, etc.)

Along with the 100% olive oil mentioned, I'd suggest 100% shea butter soap.

 

[DeeAnna]

There are a bazillion possibilities.

...55% lard, 15% coconut, 15% olive, 10% avocado and 5% castor...

That's real close to my current blend of 60% lard, 20% high oleic sunflower (alternative to olive), 15% coconut, and 5% avocado. This combo doesn't dry my skin excessively in winter (although I still must use lotion for the most comfort), and it's great in summer.

If I was adapting this recipe for someone who was sensitive to coconut oil, I'd reduce or eliminate the coconut. If I went with no coconut, I'd increase the HO sunflower to 30% and the avocado to 10%.

A way to increase the lather in a low- or no-coconut recipe is to use 5% KOH and 95% NaOH (aka a dual lye soap) rather than 100% NaOH. Not everyone's cuppa tea, since not everyone has KOH lying around, but it does work.

Additives that help increase lather are to use sugar (table sugar, honey, etc.) or beer.

edit: And for a no-avocado version, omit the avocado and increase the HO sunflower or olive by that same percentage.

 

[Phteven]

That's a lot of soft oils (70%, counting mango as hard), so it'll take forever to cure and have very slimy lather unless it's cured for...a year? More? Even my 2 year old high olive soaps are a bit slimy.

That may be what you want, and if so, go for it! It's not that it'll be unusable at four to six weeks, it just won't have much lather. Some people like that.

You can certainly add 1 tsp per pound of oils up to 5% colloidal oatmeal (Aveeno oatmeal bath is 100% colloidal oatmeal) to your soap. It makes it very soothing and I find it to be a great addition. 1 tsp honey per pound oils can also be nice (and you can use it with the oatmeal), and will add a little emollient to the mix.

If you'd rather have a less slimy, faster to set up soap, the following recipe might be useful:

Soft Oils: up to 50% (total of olive, grapeseed, avocado)
Coconut: 10%
Bulk Oils: down to 40% (lard, tallow, or palm; I find lard the most gentle).

Thanks. I’m definitely not going for slimy and I would like soap before next Christmas. I’ll try lard.

 

[Phteven]

Does she have any idea what she is sensitive to? Does she currently use store bought soap or has she tried handmade? (there are so many things people are sensitive too, colors, fragrance, oils, etc.)

Along with the 100% olive oil mentioned, I'd suggest 100% shea butter soap.

Not sure. I know she’s very sensitive to wool / lanolin. I am pretty sure that coconut oil will be bad, based on what I read, but I’m hoping that at 10% it will not trigger a reaction.

Right now, she uses a dove bar of some kind. I don’t believe she’s ever tried hand made soaps.

I’ve used real soaps for years, since I started training in Jiu jitsu. When you don’t want ringworm or other knackiness, you take lots of showers. And so, I started getting better soap.

 

[Phteven]

Ok. First, I hope the formatting is okay. It looks a lot better in the editing window, but the html is removing tabs and extra spaces.

Based on the feedback, I have a couple of variations. Using the 40/10/50 idea, I came up with the following:

# √ Oil/Fat %
1 Coconut Oil, 76 deg 10%
2 Mango Seed Butter 15%
3 Avocado Oil 10%
4 Olive Oil 40%
5 Lard, Pig Tallow Manteca 25%

Soap Bar Quality Range Your Recipe
Hardness 29 - 54 35
Cleansing 12 - 22 7
Conditioning 44 - 69 61
Bubbly 14 - 46 7
Creamy 16 - 48 28
Iodine 41 - 70 65
INS 136 - 165 134

So, harder, less conditioning, and still very mild on the cleansing rating. That looks promising. I also really like the idea of using colloidal oatmeal and/or honey.

If I up the AO, eliminate the Grapeseed and coconut completely, it looks something like this:

# √ Oil/Fat %
1 Mango Seed Butter 15%
3 Avocado Oil 20%
4 Olive Oil 40%
5 Lard, Pig Tallow Manteca 25%

Soap Bar Quality Range Your Recipe
Hardness 29 - 54 29
Cleansing 12 - 22 0
Conditioning 44 - 69 67
Bubbly 14 - 46 0
Creamy 16 - 48 29
Iodine 41 - 70 72
INS 136 - 165 118

The question with this is whether it will “feel” clean. I’ve tried some super conditioning soaps in the past, and it felt like it would never fully rinse off. I don’t care for that feeling (if that makes sense).

Any tips for either? I can do one or two small batches this weekend to give it a go.

 

[BattleGnome]

Right now, she uses a dove bar of some kind. I don’t believe she’s ever tried hand made soaps.

Dove is made with palm and tallow, if I remember right. Lard fits in that profile really well.

The question with this is whether it will “feel” clean. I’ve tried some super conditioning soaps in the past, and it felt like it would never fully rinse off. I don’t care for that feeling (if that makes sense).

Do you have hard or soft water? Adding a chelator can help that need to rinse forever and it might help with the itching your wife feels after certain soaps. (My phrasing is an over generalization with that sentence.)

If you have time for a third batch I would suggest one with >50% lard, any of the ones already suggested would work wonderfully. If you want to go for what your wife already likes, I believe Soaping101 has a recipe for imitation dove.

 

[Susie]

I would suggest more like this:

Lard 60-70%
Olive Oil 15%
Castor Oil 5%
Then fill in whatever other oil you want.

Superfat 5% if they have normal skin, 8% for dry skin.

Even with 0% cleansing number, the soap will still clean fine. I promise. My ancestors only had lard to make soap with, and they and everything in the house got clean with lard soap.

If you live in a hard water area, use EDTA to chelate, and be sure to use distilled water to make the soap. It makes a huge difference in the quality of the soap.

 

[Phteven]

I would suggest more like this:

Lard 60-70%
Olive Oil 15%
Castor Oil 5%
Then fill in whatever other oil you want.

Superfat 5% if they have normal skin, 8% for dry skin.

Even with 0% cleansing number, the soap will still clean fine. I promise. My ancestors only had lard to make soap with, and they and everything in the house got clean with lard soap.

If you live in a hard water area, use EDTA to chelate, and be sure to use distilled water to make the soap. It makes a huge difference in the quality of the soap.

Thanks. Sounds good. How long would this take to cure?

 

[Dahila]

It cures as long as you like, but for me 8 weeks is the time when it goes for sale. I love my lard soaps over one year old, they are incredible

 

[Rune]

That's a lot of soft oils (70%, counting mango as hard), so it'll take forever to cure and have very slimy lather unless it's cured for...a year? More? Even my 2 year old high olive soaps are a bit slimy.

I used 80% olive oil (and 20% coconut) in a soap I made, and the lather was not slimy at all. The superfats was not olive, though, but butterfat and coconut. And I used the soap the day after unmolding. But I hot processed my soap. I did also add honey and oat flour. Maybe hot process removes slimy lather from olive? It does according to Ann Watson (have just read her book about castile soapmaking).

I have not tried making an 50% or 80% cold processed olive oil soap, so I don't know if that would be slimy or not. I have only tried cold process with 100% olive, and that became slimy, yes.

If you make your soap hot processed, you can even increase the amount of olive oil you have in the recipe and and not get slimy lather. And the cure time for hot process is also not very long. Well, the longer the better, but it is perfectly all right just a few days after it have been made.

I think hot process is the best option for a soap for very sensitive skin, since you can decide what should be soap and what should be superfat. Mango butter and such exclusive and extra moisturizing things can be reserved just for superfatting the soap. And that is not possible in cold process.

 

[Obsidian]

I have a 80% lard, 20% coconut that is really nice. Not a ton of lather but not bad and very gentle. I did use a chelator to help with soap scum.

 

[Phteven]

Quick update on this. I finally got some lard so I could try a new recipe. I made the following this morning:

3.6 oz Coconut Oil
5.4 oz Mango Seed Butter
14.4 oz EVOO
12.6 oz Lard

Total: 36 oz

I used 4.8 oz Lye with 13.75 oz water. I also added some additional water mixed with 3 TBS of activated charcoal. This was my first cold process batch, so I hope it turns out. I'll post pictures once I cut it into bars.

Quick question. I'm planning on cutting it into bars tomorrow. Do you guys think that 24 hours or so will be enough time to let it get solid? It's been just a few hours and it already looks like it's starting to firm up.

 

[DeeAnna]

Your lye concentration is about 26%. That's pretty low for a CP method and carries a higher risk of the soap being overly soft in the mold, overheating during saponification, and possibly even separating in the mold, among other issues. This is more like what you'd want for hot process. If you are using "water as % of oils" setting to calculate the water, that is the reason for this problem. By adding even more water with the charcoal above the water called for by the recipe, you're further increasing the risk of problems.

A lot of CP soapers prefer to use a lye concentration around 33%, give or take a few percent, for typical recipes like yours with a fairly balanced blend of fats. The equivalent water:lye ratio is 2.03.

 

[Phteven]

Your lye concentration is about 26%. That's pretty low for a CP method and carries a higher risk of the soap being overly soft in the mold, overheating during saponification, and possibly even separating in the mold, among other issues. This is more like what you'd want for hot process. If you are using "water as % of oils" setting to calculate the water, that is the reason for this problem. By adding even more water with the charcoal above the water called for by the recipe, you're further increasing the risk of problems.

A lot of CP soapers prefer to use a lye concentration around 33%, give or take a few percent, for typical recipes like yours with a fairly balanced blend of fats. The equivalent water:lye ratio is 2.03.

Ah. Well dang it. It is still in the mold. I checked it yesterday and it was a little soft yet. I wad going to check it again today.

You're exactly right. I used that setting in the soapcalc website.

I appreciate the feedback. I'll let it set in the mold for a bit and see what happens. Worst case scenario, I make another batch.

 

[dixiedragon]

I would start with 100% lard and add ingredients one at a time.