Experimenting with lye concentration and discount

[SudsyJurn]

Even with oily skin it you overly strip the oil it can cause the oil glands to overreact.

Yes, very true. I was just making more of a point that the higher amount of CO doesn't seem to affect me as it does some others and that this was something I would have to take into account. Especially since it seems to come down to a more personal preference in the end with the varied responses I've seen.

 

[SudsyJurn]

@cmzaha @atiz @dibbles
@Megan @shunt2011
@amd
@Arimara

So, with going forward and trying this again with the lower SF's are there any recommendations on how to alter the recipe? Should I completely remove the CO or drop it to a lower percentage. And what should be increased the OO, tallow, or should I add something else.
I have cocoa, shea, and mango butter as well as macadamia nut oil on hand.
Also could I make a batch at 0% SF or would that be a waste just to see what its like?
Just trying to get an idea of how to tweak things for future reference. Thank you all so much for all of your input throughout this post as well, all of the information has been amazing.

 

[atiz]

@cmzaha @atiz @dibbles
@Megan @shunt2011
@amd
@Arimara

So, with going forward and trying this again with the lower SF's are there any recommendations on how to alter the recipe? Should I completely remove the CO or drop it to a lower percentage. And what should be increased the OO, tallow, or should I add something else.
I have cocoa, shea, and mango butter as well as macadamia nut oil on hand.
Also could I make a batch at 0% SF or would that be a waste just to see what its like?
Just trying to get an idea of how to tweak things for future reference. Thank you all so much for all of your input throughout this post as well, all of the information has been amazing.

I think your soap is already pretty decent. I would probably drop the CO to 20% (and some will say even that is high; you will have to try it out yourself). I think 10% shea butter can be really nice; 5% castor, and the rest split between tallow and OO. (I don't like OO more than 30% but more often around 20% -- but this is also personal, you'll have to experiment.)

You could make a 0%SF soap, and it would not be a waste. I have done that a few times. You have to be more careful with measurements, and you may still end up with an initially a bit lye heavy soap (since the SAP values are averages), but it will cure itself out if it's just a little bit. Overall, because of the measurements and SAP value average, it is good to leave a 1-2% margin. (Your lye is probably not 100% pure either, so that may give a bit of a margin too.)

 

[shunt2011]

I agree with Atiz suggestions above. I've only ever made a 0%SF Coconut soap for laundry soap so can't speak to that. I use Shea at 10% and as I stated previously I do use CO at 20%. I'm another one who doesn't like OO above 30% I keep mine between 25-30 if I use it.

 

[SudsyJurn]

I think your soap is already pretty decent. I would probably drop the CO to 20% (and some will say even that is high; you will have to try it out yourself). I think 10% shea butter can be really nice; 5% castor, and the rest split between tallow and OO. (I don't like OO more than 30% but more often around 20% -- but this is also personal, you'll have to experiment.)

You could make a 0%SF soap, and it would not be a waste. I have done that a few times. You have to be more careful with measurements, and you may still end up with an initially a bit lye heavy soap (since the SAP values are averages), but it will cure itself out if it's just a little bit. Overall, because of the measurements and SAP value average, it is good to leave a 1-2% margin. (Your lye is probably not 100% pure either, so that may give a bit of a margin too.)

I agree with Atiz suggestions above. I've only ever made a 0%SF Coconut soap for laundry soap so can't speak to that. I use Shea at 10% and as I stated previously I do use CO at 20%. I'm another one who doesn't like OO above 30% I keep mine between 25-30 if I use it.

Thank you both! I have plenty of shea butter so I'll try experimenting with that! I thought at first I would love the higher OO soaps but after using the castile bar that I made I'm finding it just doesn't really cut it for me, and It tends to leave my skin extra oily. I hate the slimy feeling of the soap as well. I haven't had the chance to work with an RBO or AVO but are they comparable as an affordable OO replacement? I'm trying to stay away from Palm as much as I can.

 

[cmzaha]

I keep my cleansing number around 15-17% for most bath bars, 8% for my facial bars. My superfat is 1-3%, with 3% used for the facial bars. My average superfat is 2%. My main liquid oils are HO Sunflower, HO Canola, and Avocado, no OO.

 

[Megan]

I like shea and cocoa butters in combination. I use 8% shea and 7% cocoa. I find that it really ups the conditioning and adds a little to the hardness...although with tallow, you might not need the hardening power of the cocoa butter. I don't use palm or animal fats, so I feel like I have to use at least a little cocoa butter to get a bar that's not super soft (I also use like 60% liquid oils... so it helps that a bit, but still needs at least two to three months cure). I actually don't mind high olive oil, but I do use a combo of olive and rice bran oils to cut down on my per bar cost and because rice bran oil is really nice in soap. I also like castor at 5%.

As far as the 0% superfat bar...for a body bar I would only do a 0% superfat if I had very low myristic and lauric acids. So pretty much no coconut. I've done a few 0% superfat bars, one Rice Bran that I need to test still, but I have high hopes for...and I'm hoping I saved some oil at the end of it's shelf life by doing this. Another one was a 0% castille. I expect both of these bars to need a one year cure...although the RBO might be okay sooner. I have also done a dish bar with 0% SF and 100% coconut...but this is just for heavy duty cleaning.

 

[soapgeek]

Happy Monday everyone,

Over the weekend I decided to do some experiments to see what type of bar is produced from differing levels of lye concentration and discount.

I created a recipe using some bases I had on hand,
25% CO
35% OO
35% beef tallow
5% castor oil
I calculated the recipes as follows, with batches 1, 2 and 3 using a 5% lye discount and a 28%, 30%, and 33% lye concentration in that order. I then repeated this with batches 4 through 6 using a 10% lye discount, and 7 through 9 using a 15% lye discount.
I ended up with 9 "mini" batches of soap each yielding 3 bars. I left 2 of the bars plain and colored the 3rd bar with a 1/4 teaspoon of black walnut hull powder at trace to see how the colors would be affected over time.
I made all of the batches the exact same way and forced gel in the oven so there wouldn't be any discrepancies.
Over all it was a very insightful and amazing experiment. I throughly enjoyed watching how the batter would trace differently and how for some batter it would remain the same or stiffen up after a 2 minute wait period before I poured it into the molds. It was also very interesting to see and feel the difference in each bar as I unmolded the following day. Some bars were very blemished and others were perfectly smooth with an amazing shine to them.
Anywho, I thought I'd share my excitement and some pictures with you all.
The pictures are in order of how the batches were made i.e. Pictures 2 and 3 are batch 1 at the top and 3 at the bottom and so forth.

Hi there,

I'm still fairly new to CP soapmaking and think this is a great e experiment! Can I ask though, when you say 'lye discount' (eg 5%, 10%, 15%), is this the superfat amount?

Thank you

 

[SudsyJurn]

I keep my cleansing number around 15-17% for most bath bars, 8% for my facial bars. My superfat is 1-3%, with 3% used for the facial bars. My average superfat is 2%. My main liquid oils are HO Sunflower, HO Canola, and Avocado, no OO.

Thank you!

I like shea and cocoa butters in combination. I use 8% shea and 7% cocoa. I find that it really ups the conditioning and adds a little to the hardness...although with tallow, you might not need the hardening power of the cocoa butter. I don't use palm or animal fats, so I feel like I have to use at least a little cocoa butter to get a bar that's not super soft (I also use like 60% liquid oils... so it helps that a bit, but still needs at least two to three months cure). I actually don't mind high olive oil, but I do use a combo of olive and rice bran oils to cut down on my per bar cost and because rice bran oil is really nice in soap. I also like castor at 5%.

As far as the 0% superfat bar...for a body bar I would only do a 0% superfat if I had very low myristic and lauric acids. So pretty much no coconut. I've done a few 0% superfat bars, one Rice Bran that I need to test still, but I have high hopes for...and I'm hoping I saved some oil at the end of it's shelf life by doing this. Another one was a 0% castille. I expect both of these bars to need a one year cure...although the RBO might be okay sooner. I have also done a dish bar with 0% SF and 100% coconut...but this is just for heavy duty cleaning.

Thank you! I'll have to try some shea and cocoa butter. I used the tallow because I had it on hand for another recipe I had tried but my mom and sister are already asking about soap and they're both vegan. So I'll definitely need to come up with some vegan recipes.

Hi there,

I'm still fairly new to CP soapmaking and think this is a great e experiment! Can I ask though, when you say 'lye discount' (eg 5%, 10%, 15%), is this the superfat amount?

Thank you

Thank you! I'm very new so it was fun to do! Yes it is! Although I have read that they are technically different. From my understand of what I've read, which may be wrong.
The actual term 'Super fat' is when extra oils are added at trace for CP or after the soap is done "cooking" in HP.
Whereas lye discount is discounting the amount of lye used to begin with. The goal with both is to end up with extra oils in the end and when discussed in past tense one would say "the soap was superfatted" for SF or lye discount. So, I don't know that the technicality really matters but my brain just seems to favor lye discount when discussing the percentages and SF in conversation.

 

[earlene]

What could be used in place of CO? Or is it all just personal preference?

In reality you don't actually need CO in soap. But if you want to replace it for similar qualities, you can use Babasuu oil or Palm KERNAL Oil which is NOT to be confused with other palms.

Just out of curiosity, I had read a couple of books where they tended to use CO and even in larger amounts in everything, but I've seen that a lot of people on here don't tend to care for it very much. Is it just because of the drying/harsher effects or other reasons as well?

Besides being harsh on the skin, more so for some people than with other people, so it does vary, it also contributes to the soap being more water soluble (hydrophylic) than soap made with some other oils, meaning it melts faster in the presence of water. That's a good thing in laundry soap, but for bathing, often people want a bar of soap that is long lasting.

As far as higher percentages of CO, I believe (based on personal experience) that the overall recipe contributes a lot to counteracting the harshness of CO. But the soaps I made with higher CO content, the recipes contained a complex mix of oils/ingredients that made it difficult to determine what was the deciding factor, although I do believe in one case, it was the addition of egg yolks and in another I think including lanolin may have been one contributing factor.

Also, are SF values a personal thing or does it just depend on the recipe. Because those same books tended to use 10% and 15% SF a lot as well. Not arguing that the book is correct or anything I'm just asking purely out of curiosity and wanting to make a better soap.

Aside from the fact that extra oils in the bar of soap (Superfat) decreases bubbles, it also contributes to soap scum, and it also contributes to clogged plumbing pipes. Those are some reasons people tend to prefer a lower SF value.

Another reason is that when you use the default settings for lye in your calculator of choice, there is already a hidden superfat ON TOP OF that default 5% SF setting most lye calculators favor. An explanation of how the hidden SF exists and why is found in this post by DeeAnna: Zero percent superfat?

Not sure I'd want to try that low for a body bar, I have very very oily skin so the CO doesn't seem to bother me the way it does others. Not saying thats right or wrong but my skin tends to like it.

I believe environment is another factor that affects our skin. In high humidity, the surface of my skin does not dry out as quickly. But indoors with AC and de-humidification, my skin can dry out pretty fast. So a harsher soap is not desirable for me in the summer if I am indoors here in my home. In Hawaii, my skin always felt pretty moist, except when I used salt soap, which incidentally had a 20% SF. It still bothers me 2 years later with a very long cure, but that is not the case for all people. Some people really like how a salt bar feels to their skin.

 

[SudsyJurn]

In reality you don't actually need CO in soap. But if you want to replace it for similar qualities, you can use Babasuu oil or Palm KERNAL Oil which is NOT to be confused with other palms.



Besides being harsh on the skin, more so for some people than with other people, so it does vary, it also contributes to the soap being more water soluble (hydrophylic) than soap made with some other oils, meaning it melts faster in the presence of water. That's a good thing in laundry soap, but for bathing, often people want a bar of soap that is long lasting.

As far as higher percentages of CO, I believe (based on personal experience) that the overall recipe contributes a lot to counteracting the harshness of CO. But the soaps I made with higher CO content, the recipes contained a complex mix of oils/ingredients that made it difficult to determine what was the deciding factor, although I do believe in one case, it was the addition of egg yolks and in another I think including lanolin may have been one contributing factor.


Aside from the fact that extra oils in the bar of soap (Superfat) decreases bubbles, it also contributes to soap scum, and it also contributes to clogged plumbing pipes. Those are some reasons people tend to prefer a lower SF value.

Another reason is that when you use the default settings for lye in your calculator of choice, there is already a hidden superfat ON TOP OF that default 5% SF setting most lye calculators favor. An explanation of how the hidden SF exists and why is found in this post by DeeAnna: Zero percent superfat?




I believe environment is another factor that affects our skin. In high humidity, the surface of my skin does not dry out as quickly. But indoors with AC and de-humidification, my skin can dry out pretty fast. So a harsher soap is not desirable for me in the summer if I am indoors here in my home. In Hawaii, my skin always felt pretty moist, except when I used salt soap, which incidentally had a 20% SF. It still bothers me 2 years later with a very long cure, but that is not the case for all people. Some people really like how a salt bar feels to their skin.

Thank you so much for your reply. It has been some time since I've been on here. Since this experiment I've been using a lower % of CO. Its what I have on hand and shipping is still quite delayed and suppliers are very backed up so I haven't ordered any new oils yet. I've also found a sweet spot for 2% to 3% SF with 33% lye concentration. The first batch of soap i made was using a recipe from a book and the CO % was high as well as the OO % and the SF. Needless to say after making and using my own at 2% SF with 33% Concetration and less CO and OO and some added Shea and cocoa butter i had to put those other bars back in the box. They were very oily, slimy, and I really didn't like them much at all. I'm still new so I'm doing my best to figure everything out and also learn as much as I can about the different oils and such. I had sworn off using Palm but now I'm curious since you say that kernal isn't to be confused. I will dive into that some more.

Just a quick update to everyone who helped me out on here, I have been turning and checking the soap each week. The 15% SF are definitely not doing too hot. They haven't had any DOS or anything like that but just looking at them makes my skin feel oily. Lol!
The 10% isn't too bad and I have a bar of the 5% on my sink and its just ok. Still a bit too oily.
I did another experiment the week after this one using a new recipe. Which I don't have on hand but I did lower the CO and OO and tweaked the other numbers a bit. I added some mango butter to it as well.
I did the same thing as far as doing 28, 30, and 33% concentration but with 0 and 2% SF this time. I'm letting the 0% cure for a very good amount of time but I did try the 2% and it was heaven! Thanks again for all the help!

 

[Mobjack Bay]

Thanks for sharing your interesting experiments. For your first batch, do I have the orientation correct - the sets in the first photo increase in superfat from left to right, and increase in lye concentration from top to bottom? Did you get any ash on those soaps? If so, was there a pattern? That’s a bunch of questions, but I would love to know the answers if you have time.

 

[SudsyJurn]

Thanks for sharing your interesting experiments. For your first batch, do I have the orientation correct - the sets in the first photo increase in superfat from left to right, and increase in lye concentration from top to bottom? Did you get any ash on those soaps? If so, was there a pattern? That’s a bunch of questions, but I would love to know the answers if you have time.

Correct, that is how they increase.
Weirdly enough I got ash on the higher SF more so than I did on the lower SF but there was some ash on almost all of the soaps. I did them using CPOP and never sprayed them with any alcohol so that may have contributed to the amount of ash. The amount of ash hasn't changed though, I thought for sure the bars would get more ash as they cured but they haven't.