DOS?

[Mschwartz]

First attempt at making a honey soap. 1tsp/lb added to the oils after melted using a double boiler. Used a stick blender to incorporate and then combined lye and oils at 90F. All oils were purchased within a few weeks. The fragrance oil is brambleberry Palo Santo &Mahogany. Since it is a honey soap I put in the freezer for 8 hours and then unmolded and cut 2 days later. The molds were wrapped with bubble wrap as well. Is this DOS? Thanks

 

[SoapDaddy70]

You didnt post anything to look at.

 

[Mschwartz]

 

[ResolvableOwl]

It can't be DOS: the soap is too young. Rancidity needs several weeks minimum to kick in to see it by the naked eye.
To me, it rather looks like you have, to a minor degree, lost the battle against overheating. Putting in the freezer kept the individual beehive moulds from turning brown, but it was apparently not enough to prevent (partial) gel in the loaf. Maybe the bubble wrap further insulated and kept the heat from getting outside.
Under gelling conditions, honey can turn brown, and the yellowish-brown spots are likely the places where the honey partially caramelised.
How did you add the honey? Some instructions call for stick-blending it into the oils, which can affect the distribution and give dark specks.

It is a nice looking soap! Fom the outside anyway, but alright too at the inside. Give it a week or two, because uneven look of partial gel often disappears over time. If some freckles stay, accept it, in the end it's the unique character of this soap. You will LOVE it!

 

[Mschwartz]

Thanks. I added the honey to the oils after they melted. Probably 150-ish in temp. That’s why I figured the honey would dissolve. I stick blended the oils as well. Maybe not long enough? I also think I should have combined oil and lye at a cooler temp? More like 80F? Thanks

 

[TheGecko]

Not DOS. I would agree with @ResolvableOwl regarding caramelized specks of honey and time frame.

Here is an article and photos of DOS

When using honey, I was told that it is best to 'melt' it in a bit of hot water.

 

[lenarenee]

It can't be DOS: the soap is too young. Rancidity needs several weeks minimum to kick in to see it by the naked eye.
To me, it rather looks like you have, to a minor degree, lost the battle against overheating. Putting in the freezer kept the individual beehive moulds from turning brown, but it was apparently not enough to prevent (partial) gel in the loaf. Maybe the bubble wrap further insulated and kept the heat from getting outside.
Under gelling conditions, honey can turn brown, and the yellowish-brown spots are likely the places where the honey partially caramelised.
How did you add the honey? Some instructions call for stick-blending it into the oils, which can affect the distribution and give dark specks.

It is a nice looking soap! Fom the outside anyway, but alright too at the inside. Give it a week or two, because uneven look of partial gel often disappears over time. If some freckles stay, accept it, in the end it's the unique character of this soap. You will LOVE it!

I am not so sure about that. I made soap once, that developed what looked like classic dos. It was a basic soap, ghost swirl, with a clear fragrance oil. No additives. It was dos 3 days after cutting. And it quickly worsened, complete with the rancid small. The oils were not oils, but not brand new, stored in the house, and went on to make many successful batches after that. No metals were used. I did throw out the remaining fo, just in case. NG Aloe and Cucumber.

 

[ResolvableOwl]

That’s why I figured the honey would dissolve.

Honey will never dissolve in oils. Honey is water-based and actually hates oils. However, warm honey is fluid enough that you can emulsify it with enough stick-blender violence into a turbid (milky), yet smooth appearing intimate mix of oils and honey. But in case your SB doesn't catch all of the honey droplets (or they coalesce over time), you can get larger lumps of honey throughout the oil.
Or (another mistake that both beginners and seniors do from time to time) is not scraping the walls/bottom/edges/corners of the container thoroughly enough to get a homogeneous blend everywhere.

Here is an article and photos of DOS

ETA:

It was dos 3 days after cutting.

Yes, nasty fragrances can be nasty. Ugly story. But when I understood @Mschwartz correctly, these spots were there pretty much immediately after cutting. DOS (oxidative rancidity) needs oxygen to form orange/brown coloured compounds, and inside a loaf of young low-porosity soap (especially with reducing agents like the sugars in the honey present), there is not enough oxygen for DOS to develop deep inside. At least I have never heard of that.

 

[Mschwartz]

The spots were inside the loaf and were pretty much consistent throughout the whole center of the loaf. I guess next time I’ll dissolve it in water. I researched using honey before I attempted it and others talked about adding it to the oil and it seemed easier. I’ve read adding to the lye water works as well?

 

[Zany_in_CO]

I use honey at a rate of 1 tablespoon PPO. I add it to an equal amount of water and warm before adding it to my warmed oils. SB for one full minute before adding the lye solution. Honey is a "heater". If the batch seizes while SBing to trace, leave it and walk away for 5 minutes (I set a timer). When you come back, it will be going into gel and it's easy to mix and pour.

 

[TheGecko]

I researched using honey before I attempted it and others talked about adding it to the oil and it seemed easier. I’ve read adding to the lye water works as well?

What is "easier" isn't always better. I Master Batch my Oils/Butters and Lye Solution. Along with my Base Oils and Lye Solution, I add Sodium Lactate and Kaolin Clay, but I don't add them to my Master Batches because I don't know if they would cause any issues or not. Yes, I could make up a small test batch and let it sit for a couple of months but I rather use the time and money to make soap. In the time it takes me to melt my oils, I can weigh out my Lye Solution and add SL to it AND weigh out my FO and add KC AND put everything away.

I know someone that dissolves sugar into the water before adding lye, but they have been making soap for a very long time.

My suggestion would be to take a couple of tablespoons of your water (before adding Lye) and use it to dissolve your honey and then add to your oils and mix it in thoroughly.

 

[lenarenee]

ETA:

Yes, nasty fragrances can be nasty. Ugly story. But when I understood @Mschwartz correctly, these spots were there pretty much immediately after cutting. DOS (oxidative rancidity) needs oxygen to form orange/brown coloured compounds, and inside a loaf of young low-porosity soap (especially with reducing agents like the sugars in the honey present), there is not enough oxygen for DOS to develop deep inside. At least I have never heard of that.

So it can happen sooner than the several weeks you mentioned above?
Do fo’s oxidize?

 

[ResolvableOwl]

Well, obviously they did for you. Hard to tell, such reports are rare. But one can't exclude it. FOs are not magically exempt from the harms that oxygen does to organic matter.

 

[Mschwartz]

So if I understand the consensus is when I stick blended the oils and honey it just suspended tiny honey droplets in the oil instead of dissolving? When it setup the droplets scorched from the lye solution? It’s safe to use after the ordinary curing time?

 

[lenarenee]

Well, obviously they did for you. Hard to tell, such reports are rare. But one can't exclude it. FOs are not magically exempt from the harms that oxygen does to organic matter.

Yeah, I was skeptical. But the speed at which it continued to deteriorate was shocking and told me something wrong. I also considered that my bowls may not have been clean enough. Who knows.

 

[ResolvableOwl]

It’s safe to use after the ordinary curing time?

This depends on the ratio between oils and lye, and if you have blended in the lye solution smoothly. We will know more in a week or two, when you carry out zap tests at a few places of your bars (centre and outside of a loaf bar, and the individual moulds).

Scorching (a harmless, but unattractive form of premature caramelisation) is a real danger with sugary stuff in warm/hot lye. I personally have never worked with honey; if I had to, I'd first branch off a bit of the batch water (2-3 times the amount of honey), to dilute the honey to a runny consistency. Then dissolve the lye in the rest of the water, wait until it's cooled down, and add the honey-water and lye-water separately to the oils. That way, honey will be distributed evenly in the water phase, but will never have had contact to warm lye (or, worse, solid NaOH).

Has anyone ever done Hot Process, and added the honey with the post-cook additions?

 

[Mschwartz]

This depends on the ratio between oils and lye, and if you have blended in the lye solution smoothly. We will know more in a week or two, when you carry out zap tests at a few places of your bars (centre and outside of a loaf bar, and the individual moulds).

Scorching (a harmless, but unattractive form of premature caramelisation) is a real danger with sugary stuff in warm/hot lye. I personally have never worked with honey; if I had to, I'd first branch off a bit of the batch water (2-3 times the amount of honey), to dilute the honey to a runny consistency. Then dissolve the lye in the rest of the water, wait until it's cooled down, and add the honey-water and lye-water separately to the oils. That way, honey will be distributed evenly in the water phase, but will never have had contact to warm lye (or, worse, solid NaOH).

Has anyone ever done Hot Process, and added the honey with the post-cook additions?

This depends on the ratio between oils and lye, and if you have blended in the lye solution smoothly. We will know more in a week or two, when you carry out zap tests at a few places of your bars (centre and outside of a loaf bar, and the individual moulds).

Scorching (a harmless, but unattractive form of premature caramelisation) is a real danger with sugary stuff in warm/hot lye. I personally have never worked with honey; if I had to, I'd first branch off a bit of the batch water (2-3 times the amount of honey), to dilute the honey to a runny consistency. Then dissolve the lye in the rest of the water, wait until it's cooled down, and add the honey-water and lye-water separately to the oils. That way, honey will be distributed evenly in the water phase, but will never have had contact to warm lye (or, worse, solid NaOH).

Has anyone ever done Hot Process, and added the honey with the post-cook additions?

I guess I’ve been of the assumption the soap calculator figures the ratios out for us and mixing until trace mixes the oils and lye solutions properly emulsifying them. Am I missing something?

 

[ResolvableOwl]

No, you're entirely right. What I wanted to state is: As long as you adhere to the numbers from the calculators (and nothing stupid happens like confusing or forgetting ingredients), and you're mixing your bowl well – you will end up with safe soap in the end!