Dos Storage problems

[Buddytheborador]

Hi Everyone,

I have recently been making my first batch of coconut oil soap with a 20% superfat. The bars are simply wonderful to use and its probably one of my favourite recipes to date.

The problem I'm having is with DOS. I recently in the summer tried a few other recipes, all with a blend of soft and hard oils. Those recipes ranged from around 2 to 5 percent superfat. I stored all soaps in plastic containers in a small cupboard under my stairs. All with plenty air flow as the containers were not sealed.

I have attached an image of what the cupboard looks like.

I purchased a dehumidifier for the small little cupboard but I have noticed the room gets rather hot. The main problem here is on both the previous recipe and the 100% coconut recipe I have been getting DOS. I use distilled water for my soaps so ruled this out as a possible problem. All ingredients are also freshly bought.

I'm getting so frustrated as I'm absolutely in love with this craft, I have tried several locations in my house for storage but the only place I can keep them warm is the cupboard. Only other locations are the loft or shed which of course are way to cold. I love in the UK so it's pretty cold this time of year. The coconut oil is extra virgin organic as well if this helps.

Any guidance or tips would be greatly appreciated.

 

[shunt2011]

We will need more information. What are your recipes and how old are your soaps. If you’re using oils with a short shelf life that may be your problem. Also, the soap needs to have good air circulation during cure.
I cure mine on open shelving until they are 4-6 weeks old.

 

[earlene]

If you have a chance to get some photos of your soap face on in the storage containers, that might help, and especially some photos of your soap with the DOS showing. And more detail about the age of the soap and so forth.

Without more detail about the recipes, SuperFat, additives, methods used and your tools, etc., I will just address your storage method.
Well, no, I will address tools just a bit, too.

Tools: Are your soaps coming into contact with any metal racks (to dry or cure after cutting?) or do you use anything other than plastics or good Stainless Steel for mixing? Metals other than stainless steel can introduce contaminants that tend to lead to DOS.

Storage: Storing in a hot location with minimal air flow is not the most desirable method for curing your soap. Yes, a small enclosed cupboard under the stairs with the door closed has minimal air flow, unless you have a fan running in there the 24 hours per day, and even then it would only be stale air within the confined space. Open shelving in a larger room would be more desirable for curing your soap. I see from your other thread the area where you are storing the soap is running 68-78 degrees (do you mean in F as I would not expect that in C). I don't think that heat in a soap room would be the issue. But air flow in such a confined space could be an issue, as I mentioned before.

What does the soap sit on inside the plastic containers? Is it tightly packed inside the containers? If you don't already, lift the soap up off the bottoms of the containers with some sort of breathable plastic or vinyl liner like used for needlepoint or something similar that has little air holes built into it. Then leave sufficient space between the bars of soap so they are not touching - this allows for more air between bars to allow more air flow.

It does not hurt the soap to cure in a cold room, although a shed outside might be more inconvenient than a room indoors and I'd be worried about critters possibly going into the shed to snack on the soap.

Also are you adding ROE to your oils when you first open the containers per amd's suggestion in your other thread? That goes a long way to keeping DOS at bay, but I also add EDTA to the soap mixture because the 2 in combination work better than either alone. See this article by Dr. Kevin Dunn, author of Scientific Soapmaking.

 

[Buddytheborador]

If you have a chance to get some photos of your soap face on in the storage containers, that might help, and especially some photos of your soap with the DOS showing. And more detail about the age of the soap and so forth.

Without more detail about the recipes, SuperFat, additives, methods used and your tools, etc., I will just address your storage method.
Well, no, I will address tools just a bit, too.

Tools: Are your soaps coming into contact with any metal racks (to dry or cure after cutting?) or do you use anything other than plastics or good Stainless Steel for mixing? Metals other than stainless steel can introduce contaminants that tend to lead to DOS.

Storage: Storing in a hot location with minimal air flow is not the most desirable method for curing your soap. Yes, a small enclosed cupboard under the stairs with the door closed has minimal air flow, unless you have a fan running in there the 24 hours per day, and even then it would only be stale air within the confined space. Open shelving in a larger room would be more desirable for curing your soap. I see from your other thread the area where you are storing the soap is running 68-78 degrees (do you mean in F as I would not expect that in C). I don't think that heat in a soap room would be the issue. But air flow in such a confined space could be an issue, as I mentioned before.

What does the soap sit on inside the plastic containers? Is it tightly packed inside the containers? If you don't already, lift the soap up off the bottoms of the containers with some sort of breathable plastic or vinyl liner like used for needlepoint or something similar that has little air holes built into it. Then leave sufficient space between the bars of soap so they are not touching - this allows for more air between bars to allow more air flow.

It does not hurt the soap to cure in a cold room, although a shed outside might be more inconvenient than a room indoors and I'd be worried about critters possibly going into the shed to snack on the soap.

Also are you adding ROE to your oils when you first open the containers per amd's suggestion in your other thread? That goes a long way to keeping DOS at bay, but I also add EDTA to the soap mixture because the 2 in combination work better than either alone. See this article by Dr. Kevin Dunn, author of Scientific Soapmaking.

Thank you for your super detailed reply. In response to the above questions I'll lay out what a typically recipe looks like for me. 20 percent superfat:

1058g - Coconut oil
155g - lye
272g - Distilled Water

I heat the coconut oil to around the same temperature as the lye water when it hits 150 degrees fahrenheit. I use plastic jugs for the oils and lye water. Once the lye water and oils cool down to around 130 degrees fahrenheit I pour the lye water into the coconut oil slowly.

In terms of tools I use an immersion blender and a plastic spatula to get any excess soap out the bottom of the moulds.

I then mix for around 2 minutes until I reach a thin trace and pour. I leave to set for around a day and then unmould. The soaps are then stored in plastic trays, no lining. They are not very close together so do get plenty room to breath. The soaps in their trays are then placed onto a 3 tier trolley I have. I have 4 trolleys, each with 3 shelves.

The trollies are stored inside the small cupboard. They usually cure for around 4 weeks before they are used. I have noticed the dos problem with both soaps that had essential oils added and soaps that had none at all so it cannot be that. I used ROE on previous Batches and still got dos, this leads me to believe the problem is with the storage system I'm using. I've never had this problem until we moved house and I changed storage.

Unfortunately the house we have is rather small, so it's ethier I use the cupboard, the loft or the shed. Hope I've covered everything, let me know if I've missed anything, thanks again in advance

 

[earlene]

Photos of your soaps with the DOS? How quickly is it appearing? How far does it spread? What does it smell like?

Photos really do help.

Also, do you wear clean gloves when you handle them, cut them, place them in the trays? Sometimes contaminants can transfer from our hands to the soap. And how do you clean the storage trays between use?

Anyway, I wonder if you might consider cleaning out your storage cupboard and the plastic trays with a 10% bleach solution just to get a fresh start. That is if you want to continue using the cupboard. If it were me, that's where I would start, just to see if it would make a difference to start out with a freshly de-contaminated area. Otherwise, I might switch to setting up a curing rack in the loft if it isn't too inaccessible. If your loft is open and not tightly enclosed, it might provide better air flow.

It really does surprise me that a 100% CO soap is getting DOS. I have read that CO is one of the more durable oils even without ROE. I don't make a lot of 100% CO soap except for laundry soap, and for that it is basically Zero Superfat (who wants to add oils to their laundry, right?), although I have made salt bars with 100% CO and a high SF, but there is also a high amount of salt, too. No DOS as yet and I don't think I even added ROE to that batch when I made it a couple of years ago now (more or less). My soap cures in a wide open space with a ceiling fan in the room that runs most of the time. But even with that good airflow, I have had some soaps develop DOS in the past.

As a new soaper, I had a few soaps develop DOS but concluded they were made with old oil. When I started, I just used whatever oil was sitting around in my cupboard or from my MIL's cupboard, so I had no idea how old some of it was. I even tried 'cleaning' old oils (it's a 'thing' and it didn't work well at all for me) and all those soaps developed a bad case of DOS and ended up smelling to high heaven.

So you said you buy fresh oil for your soap, and I believe you. But I wonder if any of your oil sources have changed. Perhaps you might try a different source and see it it makes a difference.

But I would still really encourage you to post a couple of photos in this thread, and to do the cleaning of your trays that I suggested. Old contamination needs to be washed away before re-using your curing trays for new soap.

 

[Buddytheborador]

Photos of your soaps with the DOS? How quickly is it appearing? How far does it spread? What does it smell like?

Photos really do help.

Also, do you wear clean gloves when you handle them, cut them, place them in the trays? Sometimes contaminants can transfer from our hands to the soap. And how do you clean the storage trays between use?

Anyway, I wonder if you might consider cleaning out your storage cupboard and the plastic trays with a 10% bleach solution just to get a fresh start. That is if you want to continue using the cupboard. If it were me, that's where I would start, just to see if it would make a difference to start out with a freshly de-contaminated area. Otherwise, I might switch to setting up a curing rack in the loft if it isn't too inaccessible. If your loft is open and not tightly enclosed, it might provide better air flow.

It really does surprise me that a 100% CO soap is getting DOS. I have read that CO is one of the more durable oils even without ROE. I don't make a lot of 100% CO soap except for laundry soap, and for that it is basically Zero Superfat (who wants to add oils to their laundry, right?), although I have made salt bars with 100% CO and a high SF, but there is also a high amount of salt, too. No DOS as yet and I don't think I even added ROE to that batch when I made it a couple of years ago now (more or less). My soap cures in a wide open space with a ceiling fan in the room that runs most of the time. But even with that good airflow, I have had some soaps develop DOS in the past.

As a new soaper, I had a few soaps develop DOS but concluded they were made with old oil. When I started, I just used whatever oil was sitting around in my cupboard or from my MIL's cupboard, so I had no idea how old some of it was. I even tried 'cleaning' old oils (it's a 'thing' and it didn't work well at all for me) and all those soaps developed a bad case of DOS and ended up smelling to high heaven.

So you said you buy fresh oil for your soap, and I believe you. But I wonder if any of your oil sources have changed. Perhaps you might try a different source and see it it makes a difference.

But I would still really encourage you to post a couple of photos in this thread, and to do the cleaning of your trays that I suggested. Old contamination needs to be washed away before re-using your curing trays for new soap.

Photos of your soaps with the DOS? How quickly is it appearing? How far does it spread? What does it smell like?

Photos really do help.

Also, do you wear clean gloves when you handle them, cut them, place them in the trays? Sometimes contaminants can transfer from our hands to the soap. And how do you clean the storage trays between use?

Anyway, I wonder if you might consider cleaning out your storage cupboard and the plastic trays with a 10% bleach solution just to get a fresh start. That is if you want to continue using the cupboard. If it were me, that's where I would start, just to see if it would make a difference to start out with a freshly de-contaminated area. Otherwise, I might switch to setting up a curing rack in the loft if it isn't too inaccessible. If your loft is open and not tightly enclosed, it might provide better air flow.

It really does surprise me that a 100% CO soap is getting DOS. I have read that CO is one of the more durable oils even without ROE. I don't make a lot of 100% CO soap except for laundry soap, and for that it is basically Zero Superfat (who wants to add oils to their laundry, right?), although I have made salt bars with 100% CO and a high SF, but there is also a high amount of salt, too. No DOS as yet and I don't think I even added ROE to that batch when I made it a couple of years ago now (more or less). My soap cures in a wide open space with a ceiling fan in the room that runs most of the time. But even with that good airflow, I have had some soaps develop DOS in the past.

As a new soaper, I had a few soaps develop DOS but concluded they were made with old oil. When I started, I just used whatever oil was sitting around in my cupboard or from my MIL's cupboard, so I had no idea how old some of it was. I even tried 'cleaning' old oils (it's a 'thing' and it didn't work well at all for me) and all those soaps developed a bad case of DOS and ended up smelling to high heaven.

So you said you buy fresh oil for your soap, and I believe you. But I wonder if any of your oil sources have changed. Perhaps you might try a different source and see it it makes a difference.

But I would still really encourage you to post a couple of photos in this thread, and to do the cleaning of your trays that I suggested. Old contamination needs to be washed away before re-using your curing trays for new soap.

I have included a photo of a soap I took a snap of the other day. This soap has a spot and was made on the 7th of November. I've found it to be quite inconsistent. Some soaps have them and others don't. I've seen them appear is little as a month.

I wear clean gloves when making the soap, I'm also like yourself and cannot understand for the life of me why I'm getting dos on a 100 percent coconut oil soap. I love the idea of cleaning the room out, I'll have to give that a shot as I really need to use that cupboard. The loft and shed are way too cold.

Honestly thank you so much for your detailed replys, nice to see someone helping!

 

[TheGecko]

I have included a photo of a soap I took a snap of the other day.

You do understand that DOS stands for "Dreaded Orange Spots"? I only ask because in the photo I'm seeing a WHITE spot and white spots are different.

You mentioned heating your CO to 150F...why so hot? I only heat my oils to where they just start melting and then use the residual heat to finish the job. I use frozen distilled water to make up my lye solution. The reasons are two-fold: 1) I don't have fumes from the lye. 2) If a spillage were to happen for whatever reason, I don't have hot oils/butters or lye solution all over me or my kitchen. Another option is to use the 'heat transfer method'...make your lye solution and pour on your hard coconut oil and stir until melted.

Back to the white spot...do you use Titanium Dioxide?

 

[DeeAnna]

Uh, @TheGecko, there is a pale yellow spot in the lower right portion of the soap. It's faint, I grant you, but it's there and I agree it may possibly be a spot of DOS. Sometimes fragrances and additives create spots like this too, so it's hard to say for sure what this spot actually is at this point.

I do agree with you that heating the fats to 150F is warmer than I'd go when making cold-process soap. I normally make CP soap at 95-105F.

I don't have any grand words of wisdom for Buddy. Just wanted to say that I'm seeing what you're seeing, Buddy, and I know it's frustrating. Been there done that.

It's always good to work as clean as possible, but contaminants that cause DOS (spots of rancidity) can't always be absolutely eliminated by the soap maker. Like Earlene, I use an antioxidant and a chelator in my soap to help prevent rancidity. This has been very helpful for preventing both spots (DOS) and all over rancidity.

 

[earlene]

Yes, I see it and it certainly looks like early DOS I have seen. Is this the worst you have seen so far or have there been any with a greater distribution?

You can still use soap with DOS, but if it starts to spread and turn a darker color and smell bad (and I mean bad, it can smell pretty darn awful eventually) then you probably wouldn't want to use it because the smell lingers on the skin.

So besides cleaning out the cupboard & curing trays as thoroughly as you can, I also suggest holding onto one of those bars of soap for a period of time to watch how the spots progress. Keep it isolated from the rest of the soaps. I wouldn't even keep it in the same room, but that's me. (I just don't want to smell the smell, especially in an enclosed space.)

Another question and maybe I missed this: Did you use any fragrances in any of the soaps with DOS spots? If so, let us know. Sometimes some fragrances can cause spotty discolorations if not mixed well, and some folks have reported a higher incidence of DOS with some lavender Essential Oils.

 

[shunt2011]

I too see the spot. There are so many things that could be in play (EO/FO), contaminates, storage etc. As others stated, a chelator will help as well as where you are storing an how. I would take those with DOS out and set a few of them aside away from other soaps as well just to monitor if they get worse. Use those that are not too bad.