Digressions around the 100% olive oil soap

[kayak1987]

Hi all, I'm new, I decided to sign in this forum because I have to use around 70kg of old Extra Virgin olive oil
so I decided to start making and experimenting on soap.
I'm a chemist and I read all I can on the argument for the last week.

So I learn a lot also from this forum and I finally decided to make my fist attempt yesterday
Before I show what I've done and what cames out I want to explain what brings me to this decision and what is my target.

I see and understand quite all about the HP, CP, Lye excess salted out, but some thing I dont like is that (except the salted out) we are going to add aromas when the saponification is still in process (so destroying the most part), another is the consistance of most of the HP soap when pouring in the mold. so I decided to start experimenting some variation.

1)hot process soap with 2% lye discount (first because I dont like oily soap, second because my lye is old so for sure goes on carbonation and lost part of his "power")
2) add more water to have a more liquid soap after "trace" and have the option to add the aroma at saponification "almost done"

This is what I make
1004 g of EVOO,
132g NaOH,
2.5 Teaspoon Salt,
around 600ml of water
Cooked and stick mixed for around 40 minutes taking it around 80/90 °C
let it cool a little add 4 tablespoon of used grounded coffee (just not to leave it white-yellow, and to have an idea if at the ens any aroma is still in)
Poured in mold, covered with plastic and put in the oven (preheated and off) at 40°C

Result
Soap hardens and unmold in about 10h,
hard soap, uniform, surface like wax, glass lucid on cuts, tendency to make flakes.
Very rich in water inside, flakes dries just while looking at them.
pH of the soap is between 9-10 that means there is almost no lye still active
Smell, none...

Im satisfied considering this is the first attempt i make, but lets see what happens in the next weeks with the consistence while curing. and above all if my idea of doing this way to preserve the aromas works or not..

Next days I'll try another attempt and i need some suggestion

 

[SaltedFig]

Hi all, I'm new, I decided to sign in this forum because I have to use around 70kg of old Extra Virgin olive oil
so I decided to start making and experimenting on soap.
I'm a chemist and I read all I can on the argument for the last week.

So I learn a lot also from this forum and I finally decided to make my fist attempt yesterday
Before I show what I've done and what cames out I want to explain what brings me to this decision and what is my target.

I see and understand quite all about the HP, CP, Lye excess salted out, but some thing I dont like is that (except the salted out) we are going to add aromas when the saponification is still in process (so destroying the most part), another is the consistance of most of the HP soap when pouring in the mold. so I decided to start experimenting some variation.

1)hot process soap with 2% lye discount (first because I dont like oily soap, second because my lye is old so for sure goes on carbonation and lost part of his "power")
2) add more water to have a more liquid soap after "trace" and have the option to add the aroma at saponification "almost done"

This is what I make
1004 g of EVOO,
132g NaOH,
2.5 Teaspoon Salt,
around 600ml of water
Cooked and stick mixed for around 40 minutes taking it around 80/90 °C
let it cool a little add 4 tablespoon of used grounded coffee (just not to leave it white-yellow, and to have an idea if at the ens any aroma is still in)
Poured in mold, covered with plastic and put in the oven (preheated and off) at 40°C

Result
Soap hardens and unmold in about 10h,
hard soap, uniform, surface like wax, glass lucid on cuts, tendency to make flakes.
Very rich in water inside, flakes dries just while looking at them.
pH of the soap is between 9-10 that means there is almost no lye still active
Smell, none...

Im satisfied considering this is the first attempt i make, but lets see what happens in the next weeks with the consistence while curing. and above all if my idea of doing this way to preserve the aromas works or not..

Next days I'll try another attempt and i need some suggestion

I like the look of your soaps

What sort of suggestions were you after?

 

[kayak1987]

I like the look of your soaps

What sort of suggestions were you after?

Thank you!!
In the next attempts I would like to add aromas, as I say I don't like to waste things, so I'd like to find a way to obtain and preserve as much as possible the aroma.
- In theory the hot process Vs the cold, Hot one should be the one that give the best, but in practice?
- Melt and pour probably must be the only one that preserve almost everything, and starting from this idea I'm courious to try to make an "hot process melt and pour all in one", by adding something like 1:1 oil:water and making it cook for a couple of hour or more, till saponification is completed at 100% then add aromas and pour around 25-30°C, but I cant' find anywhere documentation that anyone tried this.

And for sure any other comments and tips on what I've done or I'm doing are more than well accepted!

Thank you in advance

 

[Obsidian]

I've found that I loose more scent to HP than CP. If you don't cool your soap to below flash point of the fragrance you are using, a lot can burn off. To help this, I pour my HP into a bowl before scenting. I've seen FO hit a hot crock pot and just vapor away.

Honestly though, if using essential oils or fragrance oils, not much is lost in CP. Sure the scent might change a bit which I'm sure is due to the high PH but if using scent that is made for use in soap, the change is minimal.

If you are hoping to use more natural scents like teas/herbs in your HP and have the scent stay, don't bother. It just doesn't work. You need a high concentration of the scent compound, you'll just not get that unless you use proper EO's/FO's.

You say your olive oil is old, how old? Generally we recommend using fresh oil for soap, old oil can lead to soap going rancid and developing DOS (dreaded orange spots) which is spots of rancidity, they are slightly oily and smell bad. Eventually the entire bar can go orange and nasty.

 

[Susie]

^^^What Obsidian said! You really need to look at that expiration date of the oil and give it a good sniff every time you open it. When you get the first doubt of whether it smells good or not, I would use it to burn sticks in the yard or something.

By the way, testing the pH of soap is a rather hit and miss affair unless you have a full lab. pH papers are entirely useless. Use the zap test to detect lye excess, and don't worry about details beyond that.

 

[cmzaha]

Your soap looks nice but is going to be very very scrubbie. I would have used a tbl of coffee grounds in your batch size. This is one area I do not agree with the fo burning off, I find I can use less fo when making hp soap. It simply does not burn off. I do a lot of rebatch which means my soap is going through heat again and the fragrance stays if it is a fragrance that normally sticks. Fragrances become a hit and miss as to whether a fragrance will stick or not, but most do. Flash Point does not mean the fragrance burns off. When I hp I let it cool down a little before adding in my fragrance.

I do agree with the others, that making soap is not a good way to use up old oil

 

[kayak1987]

The oil is 4 or 5 years old I think (I don't exactly remember), it was EVOO made by me from my olives,
it's quite rancid but just little worst than some oil sold as "new".
I read about DOS, but I don't care, in the sense that this oil is to throw away. so i'm just having fun and experimenting with this.
So I don't know what will happen in an year or two... maybe in the next batches I can add some preservative inside.

About pH, I lick my soap whithout zapping, so I give a try with the paper, I don't want to have an accurate measurement, just a second confirmation that I don't have excess of lye around.

About scent, thank you, I'll skip the try of putting fresh lavender inside!
And, Obsidian, how much discount you generalli make on Lye?

Thank you all

 

[Susie]

If you are zapless, you need no second confirmation. If it is zappy, you will have NO doubts.

Soap with DOS smells far, far worse than rancid oil. The smell permeates all porous surfaces (wood, paint, wallpaper, cloth in drapes and furniture) in the room it is in. And the only way to get that smell out is to remove all exposed materials and replace. You may possibly get that smell out of washable fabrics, but once it is stuck in your nose, you are ready to throw it all out. I had to use Killz on the ceiling to trap the scent up there. To be fair, though, it was summer and in a closed room that I did not go into for a couple of months. But I have had greater success getting skunk spray out of much the same materials.

 

[Obsidian]

Fresh lavender also turns brown and ends up looking like mouse poop, plus its really scratchy.
I use a 5% lye discount though I'll admit I don't make olive soap, hate the stuff.

There is no way I would use rancid oil, your soaps will probably develop dos pretty quick and it will smell up the whole room. You should make a unscented/uncolored batch so you can see the process.

If it was me, I would find a pig farmer and ask if they wanted the oil for pig feed.

 

[SaltedFig]

If it's just for play/practice, try using vinegar reacted with sodium hydroxide for your water for one batch, and for another try adding salt (ordinary, plain table salt) in at different percentages of the oil weight (start at around 50% to try it out).

Those two variations are both worth learning about in soaping ... you'll need to test the salt bar over the period of a year to see how it goes

Coffee bits look pretty in soap, but I rather don't like how they look going down the drain, and if any get left behind, it's not attractive. But for a scrubby outside soap I'd use it. I also like strong double-brewed coffee as one of the water replacements - it makes a nice brown (which can be enhanced further by adding a tiny bit of raw cocoa powder).

Your soap isn't going to last the distance, so make one batch with a very high (over 20%) negative superfat and too much water (search Andalusion soap or 40% to find more information) and let that cure for over a year ... the results will interest you (but do NOT zap test this one before you pH test it, for obvious reasons ).

Keep notes and see which one avoids rancidity the longest (they'll all start going an orange yellow colour, but you'll find the different additives and lye strengths will change how quickly it happens - good learning for your soap making ).

You could also try a small batch with a weak lye solution "wash" first, to convert some of the free fatty acids to soap (they will form very quickly in comparison to soaps from oils) ... if you mix and let it settle you should get your cleaner oil in the middle layer

 

[Zany_in_CO]

I'd like to find a way to obtain and preserve as much as possible the aroma. ... Melt and pour probably must be the only one that preserve almost everything,

I think you're on to something there! But I would do it differently than you suggested. I would make CP soap. Pour at the "emulsion" stage for a smooth surface. Unmold the next day. Cut into bars the day after that. Wait until the soap is firm enough to grate up like you would cheese. Then rebatch it by whatever method you're most comfortable with. Once it's molten, add your fragrance and mold up again.

PS: I've soaped old oils.. even some that smelled a little "off". I hate waste too!

Question: Your recipe looks unusual to me, as do the temperatures. Did you use an online calculator to calculate your NaOH amount? If not, go to
http://soapcalc.net/calc/SoapCalcWP.asp

Choose NaOH; Choose grams; type in 1000; find the box "Water to Lye Ratio" and type in 1.7:1 (note decimal and colon); choose 0% lye discount; choose olive oil 100%

Then click "Calculate" and go to the next page to view. I think you'll be much happier with the result. I use the above formula along with Faux Sea Water to make the lye solution.

1) MAKE FAUX SEAWATER - Use for water portion of the lye solution.
1 quart/liter warm water
1 Tablespoon sea salt
1 Tablespoon sodium bicarbonate (baking soda)
I make up a quart/liter at a time and store it in the fridge until I need it.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
2) MAKE LYE SOLUTION - Mix and allow to cool to 35°C - 40°C (100°F - 110°F).
0% Super Fat
1.7:1 Water to Lye Ratio
I’ve tried 2:1 and 1.5:1. 1.5:1 gets almost too hard and 1:2 is okay but a bit slimey, so for me is 1.7:1 is the ideal. Olive oil is high in unsaponifiables; so 0% SF works best to reduce slippery slime. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
100% Olive Oil
Prepare lye solution and set it in the sink to cool. Weigh olive oil into soap pot. Warm to 35°C - 40°C (100°F - 110°F). Combine when lye and oils are within -12°C (10°F) of each other. SB on and off to emulsion stage (5 - 25 minutes, depending on grade of olive oil.) Slowly pour into mold. Tap to remove bubbles. Spritz lightly with alcohol. Cover with plastic wrap. Insulate. Leave soap undisturbed for 12-24 hours.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
UNMOLD - in 12-24 hours
CUT - Day 2
CURE - Ready to ship in 2 weeks. 6 weeks is best. The longer the cure the better the soap.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Unscented, this soap is suitable for babies, sensitive skin, and for cancer patients undergoing radiation. Add 5% castor oil and 10% coconut oil for bubbles and an even milder soap.

If adding fragrance, add 0.85 oz. FO or 0.5% EO /PPO to the castor oil an hour or so ahead of time (or overnight) and a teaspoon PPO (Per 500 grams) of dry ingredient of choice -- oat flour, arrowroot powder, or China Clay, etc. to help “stick” the fragrance.

VARIATIONS: Infuse Calendula Petals (yellow) or Bay Leaves (green) in oil ahead of time. Strain. Use up to 40% in the batch to add mildness and color.

ENJOY!

 

[KiwiMoose]

I made a cinnamon and oatmeal CP soap 4 weeks ago and I just used cinnamon powder from my pantry. about 1/2 tablespoon per 8o0g of oils. I used a tiny bit of frankincense EO just to give it a bit of depth - maybe 5g. Both were added at race and mixed through with the stick blender just before pouring. Initially when i turned it out it smelt a bit oatmeal-ly but now you can definitely smell the cinnamon.

 

[kayak1987]

First of all thank you all for the answers

About DOS something is missing, (and probably is lye) in the sense that in my opinion the problem happens because of the too much superfats.
I have at home soaps from olive oil that are years, some one decades old, included some Aleppo soap without any problem, and for sure, they are not made by fresh olive oil.
So, there must be a way to make a good soap with rancid oil.
here scientific article I found about this argument
http://grasasyaceites.revistas.csic.es/index.php/grasasyaceites/article/viewFile/235/236 (interesting to see the saponification process )

About lye,
yes for sure I used soapcalc, what I made is a 2% superfat soap (olive oil is 0.135 SAP, I put 132 on 1000) with a 60% water to oil weight,
temperatures are high (80°C - 180°F) because I warm it up manually to accelerate soaping and volatilize bad smelling compounds (rectification in some way).

About missing lye
NaOH sodium hydroxide, is an hygroscopic (absorb water) and unstable (reacts with CO2 producing bicarbonate)
so that in the Lab you never just weight it and make a reaction you want to be stechiometric (exactly correct in the ratios).
That only to say that considering the lye we are using, that is not dryed in the stove before use and stored in non sealed cans
Is higly probable that is around 10% less effective than expected, so that when we make a 6% discount soap, we are probably making a 16% one...
This with all the related problems of too much free fatty acid around.

@SaltedFig thank you I really like your tips!

@Zany_in_CO thank you, your recipe is very close to mine, I also added 2 teaspoon of salt, (not the bicarbonate)

Next batch will be for sure a negative discounted one!

 

[Dawni]

I rarely do CP and I'm only new but I also notice that my EOs (have not used FOs) stick more in my HP soaps. They are there even when I rebatch, either back in the slow cooker or in the microwave.

What I do notice is that some EOs stick better in HP.. Lavender isn't one lol. Spearmint and Cedarwood is. Those so far are the only ones I've tried in both CP and HP.

Other more experienced soapers will be able to tell you more

 

[SaltedFig]

I noticed you posted on another thread that you were having trouble dissolving salt into your lye solution.

You can get a much higher amount of dissolved salt into your soaps if you make the brine (dissolve the salt in your water) first, then add the hydroxide to make the lye solution.

 

[DeeAnna]

The solubility of salt in a particular NaOH solution will be the same whether you start with brine (salt + water) and add the NaOH or start with NaOH solution (NaOH + water) and add the salt.

What's different about the two methods is the size of the salt crystals in the mixture. If you make a saturated brine solution (about 26% salt) and then add NaOH, that much salt won't stay in solution. The excess salt will precipitate out (turn back into solid form) as tiny crystals which turn the mixture into a cloudy white liquid. If you let the mixture sit long enough, the tiny salt crystals will eventually settle out into a white layer on the bottom of the liquid solution.

If you make an NaOH solution and then add salt, some of the salt will dissolve, but excess salt will stay as the usual size crystals.

It's nicer to have the super fine crystals that come from mixing salt + water first followed by the NaOH.

 

[SaltedFig]

The problem being addressed was that a small amount of salt was not dissolving easily when it was added to the lye solution.

From a practical sense, reversing the add order (salt first, lye second) solves the problem (the salt gets fully dissolved first).

 

[kayak1987]

From a Thermodynamical point of view, it's just a problem of time to reach the new state of equilibrium of the system

Jokes aside, without taking paper and pen, I was just surprised because I have a 4.5:1 Water:lye solution and in other posts or articles I read of dissolving in a two or tree times more concentrated lye solution..

 

[penelopejane]

The solubility of salt in a particular NaOH solution will be the same whether you start with brine (salt + water) and add the NaOH or start with NaOH solution (NaOH + water) and add the salt.

What's different about the two methods is the size of the salt crystals in the mixture. If you make a saturated brine solution (about 26% salt) and then add NaOH, that much salt won't stay in solution. The excess salt will precipitate out (turn back into solid form) as tiny crystals which turn the mixture into a cloudy white liquid. If you let the mixture sit long enough, the tiny salt crystals will eventually settle out into a white layer on the bottom of the liquid solution.

If you make an NaOH solution and then add salt, some of the salt will dissolve, but excess salt will stay as the usual size crystals.

It's nicer to have the super fine crystals that come from mixing salt + water first followed by the NaOH.

26% salt Saturated solution 26g/100g
150g lye in 150g water total needed 250g to hold 26g salt and NaOH in solution.

What is a saturated solution of CA?
If I add salt, CA and NaOH beyond a saturated solution (it holds more when the water is warm) will it “find” the water in a purée or would mixing the salt with the purée mean the salt is less likely to precipitate out?
Or is there not enough water in a purée or milk to dissolve salt and hold it in solution?

 

[SaltedFig]

A problem of time ... unless the lye solution is in a sealed container, it will continue to react with the surrounding air.

In a practical sense, while you are waiting for the salt to dissolve, the lye is degrading.

From a Thermodynamical point of view, it's just a problem of time to reach the new state of equilibrium of the system

Jokes aside, without taking paper and pen, I was just surprised because I have a 4.5:1 Water:lye solution and in other posts or articles I read of dissolving in a two or tree times more concentrated lye solution..

It should work.

Is there a chance that your salt isn't pure salt?
(Some table brands have flow agents - that could make a difference to your results.)