Did something gone wrong? Thoughts/advice please

[earlene]

I don't like liquid soap for bathing/showers, but for shaving my legs, that is what I use. I found that using a foaming pump bottle solved the problem of having to create a thick foamy lather (and not waste time and water with the shower running) getting the thinner liquid soap to lather enough for shaving. I still don't want to use it for bathing, but for shaving my legs, it's perfect because I never get nicks or cuts from my razor with the LS that I use for shaving. I originally made it to be a shampoo, however, as a shampoo it totally sucks. But for shaving my legs and underarms it is out of this world for me, anyway.

 

[Zany_in_CO]

I sadly am not able to get castor oil, and if the lard your referring to is pigs lard... That's sadly quite hard to come by too duck fat on the other hand is easy

You could try 100% duck fat liquid soap... at least it has enough fatty acids to potentially make a decent hair & body shower gel.

If you don't mind my asking, what soap making oils are available where you are? Olive? Palm? Coconut? Deer or Bear tallow? I was surprised that you had jojoba oil available. Any other "specialty" oils like avocado, flaxseed (aka linseed), almond, sunflower, safflower, etc. What about rosin (from pine trees)?

 

[Susie]

If it helps, forum member MySoapyHeart hails from northern Europe and she posted a list of where she gets her soaping supplies: http://www.soapmakingforum.com/showthread.php?t=58479&highlight=supplies+Norway



As with Susie, I use it exclusively as a hand soap, too, but I have tested it out in the shower to see how it performed as an all-over body wash, and although it got me clean without drying me out, it didn't produce the copious amounts of quick-lathering bubbles that I appreciate so much in an all-over shower/bathing soap.

One thing about me- I'm very picky about my lather in my shower/bathing soaps. Basically, I love showering with soaps that give me lots of readily, bubbly/creamy lather without a lot of effort. With the liquid soap in question, I found that I had to use much more of it in the shower than I wanted to in order to get results that were even close to being comparable to how my bar soaps perform (lather-wise) in the shower.

If one is not as super picky about their lather as I am , it might work fine for them as a shower soap, but if I were personally ever to choose to regularly use it as a shower soap, I would definitely need to make it in much bigger quantities than I do my bar soap, because I would go through it much, much faster, guaranteed.

I love it as a hand soap, though.


IrishLass

^^^^What IrishLass said!

 

[TruthSeeker]

Thanks, that's very informative, guess I'll experiment around the two recipes to see if I can't make it more shower soap friendly. After testing the original ofc ;xD

And IrishLass that link is very useful, thanks (though shipping is still *****y expensive xD)

Zany, Currently I have avocado oil, argan oil, kukui nut, and jojoba oil.
I also have pure pine tar (really easy to get, and I actually had a hard time finding it in an amount less than a gallon xD
Haven't looked at pine rosin, never even herd of actual, but we have a lot of pine and traditions with pine products so I would not be surprised.
Gave a quick look at the store I bought my oils from and they also have hemp, almond, grape, wheat, makadami, moringa, neem, tamanu, thistle, fennel flowerseed, seaberry and ricin -oil.
I think I have seen linseed somewhere before, and olive, coconut and sunflower oil is quite common in the grossery store
Haven't really seen much of any animal fats other than duck, but probably cus I haven't looked.
Probably won't find bear tallow though as there aren't many of them here and hunters are only allowed to shoot them if the become a danger to and attack people. Last time was a year or two ago so whatever tallow might still be available is probably rancid by now

Looking forward to hearing more from you all, I am learning a lot here
Truth :bunny:

 

[Arimara]

Read This. I will help you out a lot. You really should consider unsaponifiables a little bit more if you want to make a good soap for sensitive skin. Unsaponifiables also tend to trigger allergies for many people as well. That's why whenever I get around to making a soap again, I will steer clear of virgin oils. the refined stuff is safer for my kid.

 

[Zany_in_CO]

Here's another... read this:

http://www.soap-making-essentials.com/soap-making-oils.html

 

[TruthSeeker]

Both those links are definitely helpful, I already read through that lovingsoap one previously.
Though Arimara, you say I should be more aware of the unsaponifiables more if I want to make a soap for sensitive skin. To me that would mean the minerals, vitamins, antioxidants, and potentially sugars, in the ingredients. But how each of those will affect the soap I have found very little information on. How each would affect skin is something I do and did look into in quite some depth (it is one of the main reasons why there is so much jojoba oil in my failed recipe).
I have to admit that my viewpoint was mostly based in chemistry, and I failed to look at how each would interact with each other.
So... If any of you have anything that could help me understand unsaponifiables and their effects better, I would be thankful

xD
Truth

(ps: I am VERY careful when it comes to allergens, and make sure that using an oil that may contain one won't cause regret.
I would ofc make sure to avoid all know allergens had i been crafting for a larger crowd and not individual persons I personally know )

 

[Zany_in_CO]

Unsaponifiables

If any of you have anything that could help me understand unsaponifiables and their effects better, I would be thankful

UNSAPONIFIABLES are a large group of compounds called plant steroids or sterolins. They soften the skin, have superior moisturizing effect on the upper layer of the skin and reduce scars. The sterolins in avocado oil have been found to diminish age spots. Oils with the highest unsaponifiables are shea butter, avocado oil, sesame oil, soybean oil and olive oil. (From my files; source unknown)

So, that's why shea butter; avocado, sesame, soybean and olive oils are highly desirable in CP and HP hard bars for their conditioning effects. However, in Liquid Soap, they present a bit of a problem in that unsaponified bits float free -- and a high % superfat adds to the problem because it allows more free floating oil, which leads to a greater probability of the soap going "off", i.e., rancid. Not good. :sad:

Oils for Liquid Soap

...I have avocado oil, argan oil, kukui nut, and jojoba oil; pine tar; at the store ...hemp, almond, grape, wheat, makadami, moringa, neem, tamanu, thistle, fennel flowerseed, seaberry and ricin -oil; ...I think I have seen linseed somewhere; ...olive, coconut and sunflower oil is quite common.

Hiya Truth,

Sorry I haven't been able to get back to you sooner. That's a nice selection of oils, altho I'm not familiar with some of them -- wheat (as in "wheat germ"?), thistle, flowerseed, seaberry, ricin; and I've only seen fennel as an essential oil. Neem, tamanu, and fennel are said to be beneficial for skin issues:

Neem Oil can be used as a majority soapmaking oil blend because it is easy to saponify (with its balanced blend of saturated and unsaturated fatty acids), and because it contributes hardness and conditioning properties to its soaps. Use rate: 10-40% Downside: It is odorific! LOL

Tamanu Oil - Use rate: 5% in lotions, etc.
This slightly waxy oil is a traditional medicine for its analgesic, anti-inflammatory and cicatrizant properties. Formerly used to treat leprosy. It is soothing for eczema and skin irritations; for relieving pain, healing wounds, herpes lesions and post-surgical scars. A combination of tamau and Ravensara aromatica essential oil has been used successfully as a treatment for shingles.

I was happy to see coconut oil! However, I'm concerned that it may be "hydrogenated" for cooking and will not perform as well as the coconut oil 76°F which is generally used in soap.

Here's some info from my files for your consideration:

ZANY’S NOTES ON WHAT TO EXPECT FROM VARIOUS OILS IN LS (Collected from a variety of sources.)

It isn't a problem if your oils cause clouding. Some people LIKE the "creamier" look of LS. The problem is that if you are not experienced, you won't know if the clouding is from the formula or from it not saponifying properly. HTH Sharon

COCONUT - Coconut Oil is the mainstay of liquid soap for clarity, great lather, excellent cleansing, and is not drying at all when combined with at least 20% liquid oil. Use more than you do in hard bar formulas, 30% - 80%. For a high foaming mild LS, use 50/50 Coconut/liquid oil(s) of choice. 100% Coconut Oil LS is great for laundry soap and other cleaning products; process at 0% superfat; Dilution Rate: 40% soap to 60% dilution water. Coconut Oil LS works well in hard or salt water but is not recommended for dry skin.

TALLOW/LARD/PALM make good cleansing, very mild soap with lasting thick bubbles, but the palmitic and stearic acids they contain produce opaque soap. Lard adds pearlescence to liquid soap. TIP: Make up a small batch of 100% tallow and add a small % to Liquid Soap for body and to help prevent thinning of gels during the summer months.

TIP: Use LIQUID OILS at higher % for mildness and clarity + 10-20% coconut oil for lather and density.

OILS FOR CLEAR LS: Almond, Apricot Kernel, Canola, Castor, Coconut, Flax Seed (Linseed), Olive, Palm Kernel, Rosin, Safflower, Soybean, Sunflower. (This list is by no means complete, only what I have gleaned so far.)

HYDROGENATED OILS: Keep on the low side -- instead of solid soy use liquid soy; instead of solid palm use liquid red palm (also adds color).

CASTOR OIL: Use 5% (or more) for conditioning and super lather.

AVOCADO OIL contains “unsaponifiables” but creates a clear LS with dense lather once the particles settle out during sequester.

BUTTERS contain “unsaponifiables” and should be kept below 2%. Instead of shea butter, try shea oil.

UNSAPONIFIABLES are a large group of compounds called plant steroids or sterolins. They soften the skin, have superior moisturizing effect on the upper layer of the skin and reduce scars. The sterolins in avocado oil have been found to diminish age spots. Oils with the highest unsaponifiables are shea butter, avocado oil, sesame oil, soybean oil and olive oil.

WAXES, including JOJOBA, should be kept at less than 2% to ensure transparency. The fatty alcohols in waxes do not dissolve and they form a waxy, milky layer that floats at the top of the soap mix.

LANOLIN - VERY low side of your formulations, 1% - 2%

ROSIN at 5%-15% makes incredibly clear amber brown LS with awesome lather. Adds transparency and emollience and acts as a preservative as well. Try with 5% coconut oil and 80% liquid oil(s) of choice for high foaming shampoo. Can be sensitizing.

QUOTE (Failor): ROSIN saponifies much like an oil but without any resulting glycerin. It gives a smooth cold cream finish to the lather and also acts as a detergent and preservative. To calculate - Rosin has the same SAP value as Wheat Germ Oil. (NOTE: May cause contact dermatitis in sensitive individuals)

Lard vs Duck Fat; Pine Tar; Jojoba

Now, let's take a look at your original recipe using Duck Fat, Pine Tar and Jojoba. One at a time, I put each one into SoapCalc at 100% to see Fatty Acid content.

This pic shows Lard (One) vs. Duck Fat (All). As Susie suggested earlier, Duck Fat maybe a reasonable sub for Lard, so that's a keeper:

Jojoba is a keeper as well, used at 1-2% because that's a sufficient amount to feel the "conditioning" benefit and any more than that may participate out and create a waxy surface on the finished LS (just a guess; not sure):

Pine Tar deserves further investigation, although it has zero fatty acid content and, therefore no SAP value, and functions as an additive in soap -- both hard bars and liquid soap. I may have a recipe in my files for adding pine tar to LS. Not sure.

 

[TruthSeeker]

you Zany are a god xD
This has cleared up a lot of my questions and given me a lot more understanding. and yes the Wheat oil is Wheat germ oil.
and not to worry about not being able to reply for the duration, i have just recently been able to get back to the forum.

We May have Canola oil though. I suspect its not of a type good for soap making, here its name is VERY different, and is based around the rapeseed name... (not sure i like that English version...) anyway, this oil is also quite common to see in large amounts in the general store (over the past few years it has even overtaken the Extra virgin olive oil that has been the main cooking oil here since i was little,though we traditionally mostly use butter)

i am interested in the Rosin but with its warning of possibly causing contact dermatitis on people with sensitive skin, i do not think i should consider it for a soap i'm making for someone with very sensitive skin who already suffers from the condition....

i'm trying to think of a new soap recipe now, based around 80% olive and duck fat in around equal measure (not sure what i want more of in it yet.) reducing the tar to 8-10% and leaving the remaining 10-12% to be filled with conditioning oils such as Jojoba, Aragan, maybe avocado(i am strangely adverse to avocado oil), and potentioaly Canola oil if i find it to be the right kind, and although the Tamanui interests me a lot, i am not sure i can afford any more ingredients at this time ;(
(i also found lard btw, but only in rather large batches...)

last i could not care less about the appearance of the Soap at least to start with, that is a worry for later (its mostly going to be used as a paste anyway xD)
That it has a good strong lasting lather would be nice, preferably a creamy type more than a bubbly one...
and the conditioning effects are of paramount importance, especially if it can help protect the skin in the long run between washes.

as for odur, im putting pine tar in this, thats going to kill overpower most other odurs no matter what.... (and it suposedly works as a great preservative to keep other oils from going rancid, saponified or otherwise)

with thanks
Truth

 

[TruthSeeker]

oh, just remembered another question.
when i made my failed CPLS, it created very little heat, the highest temperature it ever reached was about 85F and was i suspect it was mostly caused by the mixer...
i do preform my crafting in a very cold location, so stuff cools down very quickly.
will this cause any problems, or cause any change in the prossess?

love.
Truth

 

[Susie]

oh, just remembered another question.
when i made my failed CPLS, it created very little heat, the highest temperature it ever reached was about 85F and was i suspect it was mostly caused by the mixer...
i do preform my crafting in a very cold location, so stuff cools down very quickly.
will this cause any problems, or cause any change in the prossess?

love.
Truth

I would then question the purity of your KOH. KOH mixed with water gets VERY hot VERY fast. So hot it almost boils the water. DeeAnna has instructions on how to test for purity here:
https://classicbells.com/soap/lyePurity.html

You also need to re-think using pine tar until you get basic soapmaking down. You are trying to formulate a high difficulty soap when you need to learn how to make soap first. Walk before you run.

 

[TruthSeeker]

I would then question the purity of your KOH. KOH mixed with water gets VERY hot VERY fast. So hot it almost boils the water. DeeAnna has instructions on how to test for purity here:
https://classicbells.com/soap/lyePurity.html

You also need to re-think using pine tar until you get basic soapmaking down. You are trying to formulate a high difficulty soap when you need to learn how to make soap first. Walk before you run.

Susie I do not doubt your knowledge in soapmaking or your skills in it, but your doupt in me is somewhat wounding.
It is not basic soap making that confounds me. it is the intricacies of crafting a very specialized product, and eliminating various variables that might effect the aspects of the soap. If all i wanted was to make a common soap with the common oils for anyone to use i would probably not be here.

As for your concerns, the Lye i have no doubt is 90% pure KOH, its purchased from a highly reputable laboratory supplier. Due to the rules here in my country, (that also make it exceedingly hard to get pure chemicals, unless you own/work in a laboratory with multiple people) if its found that they miss-labeled the contents in their wares they loose their license to sell chemical supplies, and has to pay a rather large fine. (i did go and check though just be be safe ;p )

for the lye mixture itself in my first attempt i, use goats milk, and to avoid a heat issue with the lye scorching the milk i froze the milk and mixed it with the lye as crushed ice, ( it clearly caused enough heat to rapidly melt the iced milk, but not enough to heat the mix up to more then a bit over room temp)

the reason i was asking is that am sure i remember having read that the Lye solution and the oil's are also supposed to heat up a fair amount from the chemical reaction them inbetween. this is where i took note of the lack of heating that i was expecting, though it did keep a rather stable temperature around 85F despite the room i'm working in holding roughly 60F.
both the oils and lye solution was slightly above normal room temperature when mixed together (mostly to keep the duckfat in a non-solid state)

As for the Pine tar.... it is one of the key ingredients i am trying to utilize, it is also actually the only ingredient i had, prior to this thread, full knowledge on what kind of impact it has on the properties of soap. with the exception of lather (in that i found no reference to it having impact on lather other than a mention that soap with pine tar will still have a nice white colored lather) and the potency of the smell (i'm glad to say it does mellow out after a some days of curing).
From the example recipes i found, as well as the various papers on pine tar soap, (and a few other pine tar skin products out of curiosity), the use of up to 25% pine tar in a soap recipe is not uncommon, but anything over this was hard to come by (i found one historical recipe using 30% pine tar, 20% trout oil, and 50% lard that was quite common (it was the high class soap of the time), the most common one of the same time was 15-20% tar and 75-80% trout oil. i would rather not try to imagine the smell.... ;p ).
i have reduced the amount of tar i am interested in using in my second recipe due only to smell, but i am considering returning it back to 15% and i will later most likely look at a recipe with 20% pine tar.

And with that i ask again, would the low working/soaping temperature cause any potential problems that i might need to consider into the soap making process?

Truth

 

[toxikon]

If all i wanted was to make a common soap with the common oils for anyone to use i would probably not be here.

I find this a bit confusing... Instead of trying a tried-and-true GOOD liquid soap recipe to first see what liquid soap should be, you prefer to randomly develop your own recipes without the core foundation and will probably end up throwing away bad soap until your experiments hopefully turn out right?

I'm not trying to be rude, just trying to wrap my mind around your goals.

I personally think a better approach would be:

1. Try making a small batch of a tried-and-true recipe to get your technique down and make your own decisions on how the lather feels, how your skin feels, etc

2. Choose one or two things about the recipe that you'd like to change. Maybe you want more bubbles - try upping the coconut oil percentage. You want to use avocado oil instead of olive oil, etc.

3. Make a few small experimental batches and compare them to the tried-and-true.

Keep good notes on what you like and dislike and you'll be well on your way to creating a recipe you love, instead of wasting ingredients by starting from square one with a random assortment of oils.

Good luck!

 

[SaltedFig]

Gidday TruthSeeker,

(I am not a pine soap specialist, just to be clear)

I've just popped in to offer a small thing. The purity of the KOH is not about contaminents from the supplier, but more to do with it's astounding ability to soak up water from the surrounding environment.

I tested this, and weighed out a measure of caustic crystals on a sensitive digital scale (in grams to two decimal points).
And then watched the weight change.
It is fast, and the change is large.
With even a little humidity, the caustic will reduce to a puddle in short order.

So the point of commenting on purity isn't to disparage your supplier, but to offer the very distinct possibility that your KOH has absorbed some moisture.

The link that Susie gave you was a way for you to test what percentage purity you have for this reason.

I would then question the purity of your KOH. KOH mixed with water gets VERY hot VERY fast. So hot it almost boils the water. DeeAnna has instructions on how to test for purity here:
https://classicbells.com/soap/lyePurity.html

 

[Susie]

^^^^What they said!

I am not trying to discourage you in any way. But until you know a few certain things, you are never going to get where you know how to formulate that soap.

The first thing you need to know is the purity of that KOH. Period. That mixture should be HOT. So hot it will melt the plastic bell of my old stickblender. Not that you need to add heat, but that reaction should cause enough heat to leave you in no doubt that it is hot. So I gave you a link to how to test that purity.

Second thing you need to know is what a properly formulated soap recipe acts like when it is being created, and how it acts when you use it. To that end I gave you a couple of recipes that I know will give you great soap. From there you can judge your own soap against it, or tweak either of those recipes to suit you.

I am trying my hardest to give you the tools that I know will help ensure your success. But I can't do it for you. I am not going to try a hundred recipes using the ingredients you want to use to give you a perfected recipe. That is your responsibility.

If you don't want to take the best advice I can give you, then do not blame me for failures. I wish you the best of luck going forward.

 

[TruthSeeker]

Oh, i am going to use both the recipes you gave me, and the recipe that IrishLass recommended, as well as a 100% olive oil soap, and a 100% duck fat soap as Zany suggested, to feel what a good paste will end up as. Before i experiment again. (later i might even try 100% soaps of the exotic oils to see how that turns out, just for curiosities sake. If i can easily make sufficiently small batches to be practical that is.)
my brain just leaps further ahead, than my actions are able to keep op with hand thus has already started formulating the beginnings of the recipe i want to use for that next experiment (i am tempted to making all of them at the same time and see the differences next to each other from start to finish.... just need another few mixers xD)


as for the KoH.... i did use the link and tested the purity of the KOH before my last reply, and mentioned such, in a bi-note somewhere there.... and it is 90% pure.
anyway
i don't have any explanation as to why i did not notice any significant heat buildup, other then not checking it enough, and having a very small batch with a mixer that potentially lets a lot of air circulate around the soap. (i don't have an emulsion/stick blender, i'm using a hand mixer)

i would also like to apologize to you, Susie, for seeing just the worst possible meaning of your post.
i guess i should keep away from the forums when i'm not feeling well, is tired AND hungry at the same time..... oops :s (i had just recovered from Food poisoning)
actually i apologize to all of you lovely folks, who have helped me this far, and had to read my post laced with such annoyance.... Sorry

Sincerly
Truth

 

[penelopejane]

The thing is that there are heaps of threads where a newbee says can I use xxx oil on LS? Susie types a reply that xxx oil makes cloudy soap use yyy oil.

Newbee ignores advice makes said LS and comes back and says: hey! My LS is cloudy. What went wrong and how do I fix it?

Susie replies: use yyy oil.
Luckily Susie, like all of the gurus on this forum, is very tolerant.

Hope you’re feeling better!

 

[SoapingChick]

Just wanna tell you that you prob do have acces to castor oil - where I’m from it’s called Ricinus, I noticed you had ‘ricin’ on your oils-available list. Guessing it’s the same.. (don’t know if anyone else has chimed in w that, gave up reading around post #25)

Happy soaping/researching!!

 

[Saffron]

@ Truthseeker - Are there any Asian grocery stores where you live? They usually stock castor oil and a whole host of other oils. That's where I get my castor oil from.

 

[earlene]

As mentioned by SoapingChick above, your ricin oil should be Castor oil. (Here is an article from the European Food Safety Authority in which it is called Ricin.)