Describing Pine Tar Soap w/o medical claims?

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Then why sell pine tar or oatmeal soap at all? I'm sorry, but I don't feel that there is anything wrong with directing people on how to educate themselves about a certain type of product you sell. The law says you can't make medical claims about your product. You aren't doing that by telling the customer to go educate themselves on what certain additives to products are thought to do. If people could actually link to specific cases that goes against this thinking, then feel free to post it. However, as someone else said, I don't think the FDA is going to go after people, especially if they're not making wild claims on their products. Just my 2 cents.

Steering your customer that way is promoting the ingredient as such.

The use is for label appeal only when selling your soap as soap.
If you can comply to cosmetic regulations, you could market as 'soft enough to use on sensitive skin, moisturizing, skin softening' etc.

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What about therapeutic claims?

Promoting a product with claims that it treats or prevents disease or otherwise affects the structure or any function of the body will cause the product to be considered a drug under the FD&C Act, section 201(g).
How is a product's intended use established?



Intended use may be established in a number of ways. The following are some examples:

  • Claims stated on the product labeling, in advertising, on the Internet, or in other promotional materials. Certain claims may cause a product to be considered a drug, even if the product is marketed as if it were a cosmetic. Such claims establish the product as a drug because the intended use is to treat or prevent disease or otherwise affect the structure or functions of the human body. Some examples are claims that products will restore hair growth, reduce cellulite, treat varicose veins, increase or decrease the production of melanin (pigment) in the skin, or regenerate cells.
  • Consumer perception, which may be established through the product's reputation. This means asking why the consumer is buying it and what the consumer expects it to do.
  • Ingredients that cause a product to be considered a drug because they have a well-known (to the public and industry) therapeutic use. An example is fluoride in toothpaste.
This principle also holds true for "essential oils." For example, a fragrance marketed for promoting attractiveness is a cosmetic. But a fragrance marketed with certain "aromatherapy" claims, such as assertions that the scent will help the consumer sleep or quit smoking, meets the definition of a drug because of its intended use. Similarly, a massage oil that is simply intended to lubricate the skin and impart fragrance is a cosmetic, but if the product is intended for a therapeutic use, such as relieving muscle pain, it's a drug.
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Customer perception, which may be established through the product's reputation sounds like a catch-all rule... I have plenty of people who tell me and others how my soap has taken away or lessened skin ailments. I do not tell other customers about this, nor do I market my soaps as such. However, since my soap is getting the reputation of helping skin ailments, wouldn't it then be considered a drug? Themost I say about my soaps are that they are a gentle cleanser. I cannot control what other people say to their friends. These aren't pine tar soaps or have anything in them that would be considered a "healing" or medicinal product.
 
Good Q! I have heard that you say things like- 'Traditionally used for", "has been used for centuries by", "has been said by some to",... things like that. Grandpa's Pine Tar Soap is sold right now in local supermarkets.
 
The FDA never made a bar of soap in it's questionable life., nor made anything to help anyone but Big Pharma. You know,...can;t claim anything helps or "CURE" anything, even if it does, because ONLY THEY have the right to define what a drug is, and of course, only Big Pharma drugs can "heal"...NOT.
 
Pardon, but have you any LINKS to the actual Guidelines for such things? Surely, if we are meant to obey such things, those making the rules SHOULD make them easily accessible to us, the uneducated masses??(snort)
 
Honey B, anyone or any company can get medical claims for their product approved by the FDA (or any other regulator) - not just big pharma. Only problem is, you'd need to do the randomized, blinded, controlled clinical trials in enough people to secure the claim ..... Because this is the only way to prove that a new product truly does offer advantages over an existing product (or even placebo), and ensure that the general public are not mislead into paying for and using ineffective or unsafe products.

I know that sometimes the decisions of the regulators may seem random, or the restrictions on what we can say about our products may appear unreasonable for a small business - but the agency do have the public's interests at heart, and try to protect us from less than ethical manufacturers of products which may/may not have health (or aesthetic) benefits.


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Dear Saswede, anyone who can SPEND THOUSANDS OF DOLLARS to go through the many procedures, perhaps. In case you are unaware, socialized government isn't all about the public good. It's about CONTROL. As Lenin and others have found, follow the money. IF what you believe about their tactics were TRUE, then THEY should be up front talking about the actual curative properties of many herbs and regimens. BUT, THEY ONLY PENALIZE.
 
Has anyone seen the Hot Process Forum??? I was told by an Administrator there is one here. All I could find was one about Melt & Pour, which, of course uses heat- but, alas, not the same!
 
I'm trying to write a description for my Pine Tar Soap but this is all I can come up with: "Kinda ugly, smells a little funky but great for your skin." How do you describe PT without using medical claims?

Where can you get pine tar anyway? I live in the UK and have looked at the normal soap makers' websites and cannot find it anywhere.
 
Here is a suggestion I found researching your topic on a UK site-
"The only thing I can suggest that may help you somewhat is to go to a good equestrian suppliers and look at and smell the Stockholm Tar they sell - that'll give you a very good guide as to what you should be looking to get from your efforts. Any decent place will have stuff that's guaranteed creosote free as it's used as an anti-fungal thing on horse's hooves, up inside the frog which is very sensitive, and no owner would use sub-standard stuff.............Find somewhere in a part of Essex where the rich people keep their horses and go to the nearest supplier....I hope this helps, ................atb mac"
I ALSO found someone who tried making his own- ,.......not sure how that would work out so well- but is it true that only readily available source is in Sweden??
If you have relative or friends over here- they should send you some! (great Christmas wish list item!)
 
Here is a suggestion I found researching your topic on a UK site-
"The only thing I can suggest that may help you somewhat is to go to a good equestrian suppliers and look at and smell the Stockholm Tar they sell - that'll give you a very good guide as to what you should be looking to get from your efforts. Any decent place will have stuff that's guaranteed creosote free as it's used as an anti-fungal thing on horse's hooves, up inside the frog which is very sensitive, and no owner would use sub-standard stuff.............Find somewhere in a part of Essex where the rich people keep their horses and go to the nearest supplier....I hope this helps, ................atb mac"
I ALSO found someone who tried making his own- ,.......not sure how that would work out so well- but is it true that only readily available source is in Sweden??
If you have relative or friends over here- they should send you some! (great Christmas wish list item!)

Thank you for this. I found some Stockholm pine tar on an animal medication website and have ordered it. I will then attempt to make pine tar soap. I am a bit apprehensive after all I read about it. One of the recipes I found is 25% safflower, 25% olive, 30% lard, 20% pine tar with a 5% SF. Do you think that would be OK?
 
Customer perception, which may be established through the product's reputation sounds like a catch-all rule... I have plenty of people who tell me and others how my soap has taken away or lessened skin ailments. I do not tell other customers about this, nor do I market my soaps as such. However, since my soap is getting the reputation of helping skin ailments, wouldn't it then be considered a drug? Themost I say about my soaps are that they are a gentle cleanser. I cannot control what other people say to their friends. These aren't pine tar soaps or have anything in them that would be considered a "healing" or medicinal product.
This is a Really Big Deal when it comes to potential drugs, medical devices, pesticides, and probably other products that are defined for regulatory purposes according to intended use. The law on "intended use" operates in an "eye of the beholder" manner. When it comes to FDA, this vitiates the promise that was made when the 1938 version of FFDCA was enacted that consumer choice would not be infringed, because you could still use things for whatever you wanted, and that only sellers' marketing of products would be affected.

Know what item has been (maybe still is) commonly seized as an unlicensed drug or medical device by FDA? Tanks of oxygen. Labeled simply as tanks of oxygen. FDA said they didn't have adequate instructions for safe use, which is their usual excuse for seizures in cases like this. But it's not like they would need instructions for medical use if they weren't to be used medically! What FDA asserts is that these tanks of oxygen are intended by the user (and that that intended use was known to the seller) to supply ozone-generating equipment, such equipment being unlicensed medical devices (although of course ozone generators can also be used in water & pool treatment and other uses). But if the supplier did give adequate instructions for such use, then it would explicitly be an unlicensed drug or device, so damned if you do, damned if you don't. What about a disclaimer? FDA will say you can't be trusted to make sure your customers aren't using the product for what you say it's not to be used for, and that therefore you intend them to use it that way!

But at the same time there are loads of "off-label" uses of products that FDA, EPA, etc. don't interfere with. They just get a bee in their bonnet to go after certain popular uses of things from time to time, such as ozone. So they're very selective in inferring uses to be "intended". In these cases users have to go to great lengths to lie to various people (which it's perfectly legal to do) to make sure they're off the hook. Often that would entail considerable expense, such as setting up a phony business (again, perfectly legal to do so, you don't have to tell the truth about your intentions) to receive materials.

When tryptophan was banned as a dietary supplement in the USA (although it was still an official article in USP and required in baby formula), I obtained some from a nearby supplier stuck with it in powder form, and I sold it by mail in the form of chiral crystal growing kits (consisting of a plastic bag of powder, twist tied, a thread for nucleation, and a sheet of instructions and info about L-trp), an educational toy, and advertised it in magazines where I thought it'd find the right audience. Once the supplier told me on the phone that he knew what I was doing, but nobody could prove he ever said that to me or what he meant by it. I made a good profit margin, though I probably should've pushed the business more, so I didn't make a lot of money in total. But it was fun, partly because deception is fun when you aren't hurting anybody by it. (I tested the L-trp by HPLC at the lab I was a post-doc in to exclude the presence of the contaminants that'd caused injuries from one batch.) It was fun to tell customers who phoned that I wasn't allowed to sell it to them to use it for sleeping, etc. Eventually it was rendered obsolete by 5-HO-trp, although I'd stopped by then anyway.
 
Dear Saswede, anyone who can SPEND THOUSANDS OF DOLLARS to go through the many procedures, perhaps.
Thousands? It runs into hundreds of millions to do multi-center trials!

And no, they don't have the public interest at heart, just their interest in keeping their jobs. These things long ago became unmoored from any goodness that might've started them out, and now they're just chasing their own tail. There's nothing any individual involved can do to promote public good, so they'd best just do their jobs, whatever those are. I heard in the 1980s that none of the gov't officials in charge of the War On Drugs believed in it, and that that had been the case for a long time, and I believe that rumor completely. They all know it, but nobody can afford to say it.
 
Pardon, but have you any LINKS to the actual Guidelines for such things? Surely, if we are meant to obey such things, those making the rules SHOULD make them easily accessible to us, the uneducated masses??(snort)

http://www.fda.gov/cosmetics/guidancecomplianceregulatoryinformation/ucm074201.htm
http://www.fda.gov/Cosmetics/Guidan...yInformation/ActsRulesRegulations/default.htm


The FDA never made a bar of soap in it's questionable life., nor made anything to help anyone but Big Pharma. You know,...can;t claim anything helps or "CURE" anything, even if it does, because ONLY THEY have the right to define what a drug is, and of course, only Big Pharma drugs can "heal"...NOT.

This is because the FDA doesn't regulate soap. They only regulate cosmetics and drugs. Soap is regulated by the Consumer Product Safety Commission. However, if you want to spend hundreds of thousands of dollars on testing your soap to prove it is effective for whatever you claim it will heal, then they'll happily accept the test results and allow you state it on your packaging and in marketing. Contrary to popular belief, the FDA really does try to protect the interests and health of consumers.

Honey B, anyone or any company can get medical claims for their product approved by the FDA (or any other regulator) - not just big pharma. Only problem is, you'd need to do the randomized, blinded, controlled clinical trials in enough people to secure the claim ..... Because this is the only way to prove that a new product truly does offer advantages over an existing product (or even placebo), and ensure that the general public are not mislead into paying for and using ineffective or unsafe products.

I know that sometimes the decisions of the regulators may seem random, or the restrictions on what we can say about our products may appear unreasonable for a small business - but the agency do have the public's interests at heart, and try to protect us from less than ethical manufacturers of products which may/may not have health (or aesthetic) benefits.

@ Saswede –

Very well said. :clap:
 
I must admit to being a little confused by all this. I started out very simply by growing herbs. Because I'm both a medievalist by avocation and a bit OCD, I gathered quite a library of books about herbalism -- both modern and ancient. Some herbs have histories that are centuries, even millennia, old for certain effects. Now I've never sold any herbal preparations, though I've made quite a few; nor have I made any claims about them to anyone. But it seems to me that simply reporting or quoting historical or traditional reports about the usage of certain herbs would not be a "claim" about your particular soap or preparation; if that were so, then the FDA should be swooping down and removing nearly every herbalism book sold today, not to mention the dozens of dried herbal preparations available at your local supermarket or drugstore. To me, there's a difference between saying "People in X used Y herb for Z" versus saying "My soap using Y herb will cure Z." The former is a report. The latter is a claim. Or am I missing something important?
 
Soapsydaisy you could say "Mildly cleansing soap-reminescent of a stable."

Or a horse's butt...lol. Kinda what Pine Tar smells like. :wtf:

I see people all the time on their listings to tell people to google Pine Tar. Not saying it's right, it's just saying what people do.
I don't make Pine Tar so I don't know how I would market it.

I wouldn't say used for Eczema, Psorisis or any of that. Maybe say- can be used for problem skin.
 
I didn't use claims on my packaging and left the description pretty vague and sold quite a few. A lot of people seem to know about pine tar and a couple of people commented that they like the earthy smell. Thank you for all of the input and info.
 
To me, there's a difference between saying "People in X used Y herb for Z" versus saying "My soap using Y herb will cure Z." The former is a report. The latter is a claim.

I agree with you. My understanding is you can mention traditional or historical info about herbs, etc. But you can't say "this herb will cure ----". I think that is the difference but it's a thin line which people tend to cross either purposely or inadvertently. I'm still amazed when I see people stating their soap will moisturize the skin, advertising soap for acne, psoriasis, eczema and so on.
 
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