AnnaMarie
Well-Known Member
It kind of looks like heavenly clouds (in a psychedelic sort of way) which is very fitting. You should name your soap "your soul is free now" in honor of your SB.
Deanna, I have a question...
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AnnaMarie
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Or better yet, "I'll fly away"
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More like "I'll burn away."
grayceworks
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I love it. It's gorgeous. 
FlybyStardancer
Well-Known Member
Wow! That looks totally amazing!
Oh yes it was. They are absolutely stunning, gorgeous, spectacular....In other words I love them!! :mrgreen:
An amazing end result for such a difficult journey! Very nice, Newbie!
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Thank you. My stick blender thanks you. We shall see what the end result is. Remember this soap shrinks down a LOT! It's currently growing a beard. Of crystals.
Back to the recipe though. Is it possible the oils used will make this recipe incapable of breaking or going presumably from water-in-soap to soap-in-water?
Back to the recipe though. Is it possible the oils used will make this recipe incapable of breaking or going presumably from water-in-soap to soap-in-water?
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I wish I had a good answer for you, Newbie. I don't really know. Your recipe (70% OO, 28% tallow and 2% castor, -35% SF) is somewhat similar to my second batch, which was 70% high oleic safflower and 30% lard. Mine didn't "rubberize" either, but I didn't murder a SB either. ;-) I just hand stirred the extra water into the batter after it was at trace, so our methods are definitely different.
Assuming it might be a chemical difference .... According to my recipe calculator spreadsheet, our two recipes are higher in stearic (7-8%) than AnnaMarie's 100% olive (3%). I don't see anything else that would make our non-olive recipes stand out from the all-olive version. The numbers I'm looking at are in the first image -- maybe you see something I don't.
If it's the stearic .... why? Sodium stearate is the least soluble of the typical soaps that we would normally see in our soaps. Sodium oleate is the most soluble. (See second image.) Maybe the stearic soap does a better job of stabilizing the soap-in-water emulsion?
I'm really just guessing here and hoping y'all might see something in all this that I don't.
PS: In looking at the solubililty chart, can you see why I like to use the sum of the palmitic and stearic acids as a rough measure of the long-lasting property of a recipe?
Assuming it might be a chemical difference .... According to my recipe calculator spreadsheet, our two recipes are higher in stearic (7-8%) than AnnaMarie's 100% olive (3%). I don't see anything else that would make our non-olive recipes stand out from the all-olive version. The numbers I'm looking at are in the first image -- maybe you see something I don't.
If it's the stearic .... why? Sodium stearate is the least soluble of the typical soaps that we would normally see in our soaps. Sodium oleate is the most soluble. (See second image.) Maybe the stearic soap does a better job of stabilizing the soap-in-water emulsion?
I'm really just guessing here and hoping y'all might see something in all this that I don't.
PS: In looking at the solubililty chart, can you see why I like to use the sum of the palmitic and stearic acids as a rough measure of the long-lasting property of a recipe?
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Yes, that graphic is very good for explaining why you like higher stearic and palmitic for longevity.
It can't be just the stearic in stabilizing the soap in water emulsion. The stearic in my recipe is very close to AM's, yet I can't get it to soap in water (or maybe if I could, it would be very stable.) To be honest, I've tried this excess water and varying amounts of lye excess with a few different recipes, normal everyday recipes and not castile or bastile, and they will not give me plastic or rubber balls. I can just get the cool whip type of normal trace. I have been wondering if it's the fatty acid profile that makes for that type of texture but does it have to be that castile profile or how far can one change it before you lose that ability to "go plastic" and with which FA's is there give or no give? Why? I really want to work with that texture but I don't think I need or want boatloads of castile which is why I've been playing with it.
Also of interest, I note on last night's soap that I am getting few to no crystals on the soap that I poured with all the rest. I am getting tons of crystals from the soap that sat for a bit in the containers and which I scraped out of the bowls etc.. and smushed on top of the already poured loaf. Because it had sat, the texture was soft (so much water) but different from what was already poured. Perhaps a bit stiffer and chunkier, and it was added maybe 10-15 minutes after pouring, maybe more. It is putting out crtsyals like mad, but the other parts are not. Strange.
It can't be just the stearic in stabilizing the soap in water emulsion. The stearic in my recipe is very close to AM's, yet I can't get it to soap in water (or maybe if I could, it would be very stable.) To be honest, I've tried this excess water and varying amounts of lye excess with a few different recipes, normal everyday recipes and not castile or bastile, and they will not give me plastic or rubber balls. I can just get the cool whip type of normal trace. I have been wondering if it's the fatty acid profile that makes for that type of texture but does it have to be that castile profile or how far can one change it before you lose that ability to "go plastic" and with which FA's is there give or no give? Why? I really want to work with that texture but I don't think I need or want boatloads of castile which is why I've been playing with it.
Also of interest, I note on last night's soap that I am getting few to no crystals on the soap that I poured with all the rest. I am getting tons of crystals from the soap that sat for a bit in the containers and which I scraped out of the bowls etc.. and smushed on top of the already poured loaf. Because it had sat, the texture was soft (so much water) but different from what was already poured. Perhaps a bit stiffer and chunkier, and it was added maybe 10-15 minutes after pouring, maybe more. It is putting out crtsyals like mad, but the other parts are not. Strange.
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Robert B
Member
That is awesome looking soap!
My apologies. The names in my table should be switched -- Anna Marie should be Dee and vice versa. Ugh, this is embarassing.
I'm sorry for the error. I've corrected it in my earlier post.
I'm sorry for the error. I've corrected it in my earlier post.
Robert B
Member
It is with a little regret that I mention that I may no longer be eligible for a stir off (but my arm and shoulders thank me)...but I will cheer everyone else on. Attached (if I did it right) is the remake of recipe. It was nagging at me to try again this weekend.
Difference:
1. Used pomace olive oil instead of extra virgin.
2. Did not stir as gingerly as I did last time.
3. Stirred constantly -
Difference:
1. Used pomace olive oil instead of extra virgin.
2. Did not stir as gingerly as I did last time.
3. Stirred constantly -
a. 20 minutes by hand, then 10 second stick blender blast....repeated every 10 minutes until 1 hour passed.
b. I got, what my new soaping eyes perceived, as a light trace at about 30 minutes.
c. At 1 hour, things were getting thicker so I alternated between the sticker blender and hand stirring for another 10 minutes. The soap had a heavier pudding, lotion-like look.
d. I experienced no separation.
Here is what I have today....air pockets and all. It felt good. b. I got, what my new soaping eyes perceived, as a light trace at about 30 minutes.
c. At 1 hour, things were getting thicker so I alternated between the sticker blender and hand stirring for another 10 minutes. The soap had a heavier pudding, lotion-like look.
d. I experienced no separation.
FlybyStardancer
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Very pretty!
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Aha! Achieved with a SB no less! I too had heavy trace within an hour using SBing. The question is, will our SB'ed soap have any different qualities than hand-stirred? My guess is no but who knows?
Also, why does this soap break sometimes and not others? Robert, you said your soap did not and I assume it showed no signs of doing so while you SB'ed at the end. Is it temp related? What was the temp of your batter like at the end? You probably did not take a temp, but I mean by hand feel. Mine last night was pretty warm all through.
DeeAnna, the disappointment I feel in you for your mistake is acute, just crushing. You are not allowed. Such a fall from grace!! But seriously, looking back at that chart now, maybe the 3-4% difference in the stearic is significant, although now Robert just SB'ed the OO recipe a fair amount and had no separation. I thought perhaps the SB'ing was important in breaking the first emulsion and getting it to reverse. Damnation!!!
I do have a question. I added 3% trisodium citrate to my recipe. I remember reading about the chemistry of adding citric acid to lye, which will produce both bi- and trisodium citrate, perhaps leaning toward the production of more tri. When I add trisodium citrate to my soap, it will get very hot, hotter than normal, when the lye water is added. Is this because of balancing between sodium hydroxide, disodium citrate and trisodium citrate? IS that the production of the heat, the production of the disodium citrate to keep the equation in balance? If it is, then some lye is lost I assume but with 3% of oils (the amount of trisod citrate), maybe not enough to affect my excess SF. Or am I off?
The stark white soap this produces is stunning. Are you in love with your soap, Robert? I am.
PS. My new stick blender doesn't seem to want to come out of the box. I keep saying to myself that it wasn't murder, it was involuntary blenderslaughter. I can be rehab'ed.
Also, why does this soap break sometimes and not others? Robert, you said your soap did not and I assume it showed no signs of doing so while you SB'ed at the end. Is it temp related? What was the temp of your batter like at the end? You probably did not take a temp, but I mean by hand feel. Mine last night was pretty warm all through.
DeeAnna, the disappointment I feel in you for your mistake is acute, just crushing. You are not allowed. Such a fall from grace!! But seriously, looking back at that chart now, maybe the 3-4% difference in the stearic is significant, although now Robert just SB'ed the OO recipe a fair amount and had no separation. I thought perhaps the SB'ing was important in breaking the first emulsion and getting it to reverse. Damnation!!!
I do have a question. I added 3% trisodium citrate to my recipe. I remember reading about the chemistry of adding citric acid to lye, which will produce both bi- and trisodium citrate, perhaps leaning toward the production of more tri. When I add trisodium citrate to my soap, it will get very hot, hotter than normal, when the lye water is added. Is this because of balancing between sodium hydroxide, disodium citrate and trisodium citrate? IS that the production of the heat, the production of the disodium citrate to keep the equation in balance? If it is, then some lye is lost I assume but with 3% of oils (the amount of trisod citrate), maybe not enough to affect my excess SF. Or am I off?
The stark white soap this produces is stunning. Are you in love with your soap, Robert? I am.
PS. My new stick blender doesn't seem to want to come out of the box. I keep saying to myself that it wasn't murder, it was involuntary blenderslaughter. I can be rehab'ed.
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Robert B
Member
By golly you are right! In my excitement to even get it to work AND to cut in time (before it cracks), I forgot all about the stick blender issue. I promise I shall try again in the near future. I am thinking I may have developed a highly confidential stirring technique that just may work! :shifty:
PS...I love the soap! The bowl felt warm early on but was not warm at the end. I do remember checking this periodically. I will try to remember to take its temperature next time too.
PS...I love the soap! The bowl felt warm early on but was not warm at the end. I do remember checking this periodically. I will try to remember to take its temperature next time too.
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"...DeeAnna, the disappointment I feel in you for your mistake is acute, just crushing. You are not allowed. Such a fall from grace!!..."
<sob!>
"...But seriously, looking back at that chart now, maybe the 3-4% difference in the stearic is significant, although now Robert just SB'ed the OO recipe a fair amount and had no separation. I thought perhaps the SB'ing was important in breaking the first emulsion and getting it to reverse. Damnation!!!..."
I think the issue of separation probably has several triggers. Is one sufficient to cause an emulsion switch or an emulsion failure? I truly don't know. And the uncertainty of the unknown is why there are so many superstitions in soaping -- "stir in only one direction" is an old one (but I can see that advice might keep a newbie soaper from splashing lye all around, hadya thotaboutdat?), but we have our own modern day versions.
I do believe temperature and mixing intensity (or lack thereof) are definitely factors. It seems possible that the fatty acid makeup comes into play too. We may never exactly know.
Phase of the moon? Ley lines? A stick blender sacrifice to the soaping goddess? ;-)
PS: My notes show I poured the first batch (100% OO) at 94 deg F (34 C). I did a LOT of SB'ing, and it did go through a rubber-ball stage. This is the one I CPOP'ed and it separated in the mold. Would it have separated if I hadn't CPOP'ed? Who knows!
The second batch (HO safflower & lard) was poured at 90 deg F (32 C). I SB'ed and hand stirred rather like Robert did. The batter looked "normal" throughout -- no rubber-ball stuff. I left the mold out in the open -- no covering, no insulation. It did okay and looks a lot like Robert's.
<sob!>
"...But seriously, looking back at that chart now, maybe the 3-4% difference in the stearic is significant, although now Robert just SB'ed the OO recipe a fair amount and had no separation. I thought perhaps the SB'ing was important in breaking the first emulsion and getting it to reverse. Damnation!!!..."
I think the issue of separation probably has several triggers. Is one sufficient to cause an emulsion switch or an emulsion failure? I truly don't know. And the uncertainty of the unknown is why there are so many superstitions in soaping -- "stir in only one direction" is an old one (but I can see that advice might keep a newbie soaper from splashing lye all around, hadya thotaboutdat?), but we have our own modern day versions.
I do believe temperature and mixing intensity (or lack thereof) are definitely factors. It seems possible that the fatty acid makeup comes into play too. We may never exactly know.
Phase of the moon? Ley lines? A stick blender sacrifice to the soaping goddess? ;-)
PS: My notes show I poured the first batch (100% OO) at 94 deg F (34 C). I did a LOT of SB'ing, and it did go through a rubber-ball stage. This is the one I CPOP'ed and it separated in the mold. Would it have separated if I hadn't CPOP'ed? Who knows!
The second batch (HO safflower & lard) was poured at 90 deg F (32 C). I SB'ed and hand stirred rather like Robert did. The batter looked "normal" throughout -- no rubber-ball stuff. I left the mold out in the open -- no covering, no insulation. It did okay and looks a lot like Robert's.
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I should be golden, if sacrifices are called for!
I am pretty certain my mixes were cool the first few times i made this. I brought my OO straight from the basement and my excess water too. Hmmmm...
Can you tell me anything about the heat created by the addition of trisodium citrate to the lye water, or when the lye water is added? What does that change- not the heat, but what chemicals are changed?
Also, here are some pictures of the differences between bars that had set soap scraped off the bowl and added (pics 1 and 2) versus a bar that had nothing added to it after pour (pics 3, 4, and 5). There seems to be something about disrupting this soap after it has set to a certain degree that lends itself to forming crystals- a break of the emulsion? A change to the surface tension? Hypotheses?
I am pretty certain my mixes were cool the first few times i made this. I brought my OO straight from the basement and my excess water too. Hmmmm...
Can you tell me anything about the heat created by the addition of trisodium citrate to the lye water, or when the lye water is added? What does that change- not the heat, but what chemicals are changed?
Also, here are some pictures of the differences between bars that had set soap scraped off the bowl and added (pics 1 and 2) versus a bar that had nothing added to it after pour (pics 3, 4, and 5). There seems to be something about disrupting this soap after it has set to a certain degree that lends itself to forming crystals- a break of the emulsion? A change to the surface tension? Hypotheses?
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"...Can you tell me anything about the heat created by the addition of trisodium citrate to the lye water, or when the lye water is added? What does that change- not the heat, but what chemicals are changed?..."
I'm feeling pretty clueless about this issue, Newbie. I'd love to have an answer or even some decent guesses for you, but I don't.
"...There seems to be something about disrupting this soap after it has set to a certain degree that lends itself to forming crystals..."
I saw something similar to this on my second soap, although I didn't get "furry" crystals. More like a heavy dusting of glittery powdered sugar. I do have a guess about this one. ;-)
When people are annoyed about "glyerine rivers" and post pics -- you can see the patterns made by the different types of soap crystals that form as the soap hardens up. The layers of different soap crystals often follow the pattern of the pour or the path of the swirling tool. I bet that is happening in this soap too, but we just can't clearly see the pattern.
I think you're probably right that the last bits of soap added from the bowl scrapings have a different crystal structure that would allow water to evaporate quickly out of the soap. This would encourage lots of soda ash crystals to form fast ... and there's your "fur" and my "snow".
PS: I'm going on vacation and will be away from my computer starting the middle of this week to the middle of next. I'll catch up with y'all when I get back.
I'm feeling pretty clueless about this issue, Newbie. I'd love to have an answer or even some decent guesses for you, but I don't.
"...There seems to be something about disrupting this soap after it has set to a certain degree that lends itself to forming crystals..."
I saw something similar to this on my second soap, although I didn't get "furry" crystals. More like a heavy dusting of glittery powdered sugar. I do have a guess about this one. ;-)
When people are annoyed about "glyerine rivers" and post pics -- you can see the patterns made by the different types of soap crystals that form as the soap hardens up. The layers of different soap crystals often follow the pattern of the pour or the path of the swirling tool. I bet that is happening in this soap too, but we just can't clearly see the pattern.
I think you're probably right that the last bits of soap added from the bowl scrapings have a different crystal structure that would allow water to evaporate quickly out of the soap. This would encourage lots of soda ash crystals to form fast ... and there's your "fur" and my "snow".
PS: I'm going on vacation and will be away from my computer starting the middle of this week to the middle of next. I'll catch up with y'all when I get back.
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I found that in the recent batch where I had a thin layer of water underneath the batter, the last bit of batter (which had lots of that water in it) developed ash faster, and the soaps are covered in it. I won't necessarily say MORE ash, as molds poured earlier have gotten long spikes of ash crystals. (I did individual silicone molds with one of my batches). So with my stuff:
watery last bit of batter=covered in ash but not as thick as on other pieces.
Poured earlier, so less watery=looong fuzzy spikes of ash, but not covering the soap.
The little, white soaps were the watery end-batter. They SHOULD be the same color as the bug soaps. (They stuck to the smooth silicone like you wouldn't believe, plus had lots of voids where the water was. UGLY)
The bug soaps got their contrast enhanced so you could see the texture of the ash. It doesn't look as long as it actually is.
watery last bit of batter=covered in ash but not as thick as on other pieces.
Poured earlier, so less watery=looong fuzzy spikes of ash, but not covering the soap.
The little, white soaps were the watery end-batter. They SHOULD be the same color as the bug soaps. (They stuck to the smooth silicone like you wouldn't believe, plus had lots of voids where the water was. UGLY)
The bug soaps got their contrast enhanced so you could see the texture of the ash. It doesn't look as long as it actually is.
