Deanna, I have a question...

[Obsidian]

I went ahead and rebatched this morning, grating it wasn't bad and I only had a pound. It was still damp in the middle and I zap tested at different depths and there was no zap anywhere.

I had cut my bars a bit thicker then normal, once they shrank they were close to 1" but they warped so bad it was crazy. I should have taken pictures. Where there was partial gel, the shrinkage was less which left the bars with a big lump on the face.

I did decide to add coconut oil for the SF and 8oz of 100% peanut soap so while I don't have castile anymore, It still should be a very gentle bar though. The peanut soap had really big bubbles but they didn't last long and were thin. I hope the combo will produce bigger bubble with some staying power.

I'll post up pics of my new bastile once its cut. If I did my math right, it should be roughly 66% OO, 33% peanut.

 

[newbie]

Strangely, my first batch, the half that kind of separated but that I got back together, has had no warping at all. None. A couple of my other batches have sharp corners and some slight swaying but the psychedelic cloud soap I made more recently is hugely warped. I wonder if it has to do with how fast it dries. I have that one in a room with a dehumidifier and the other ones were just out in the basement, but it was really cold and dry this winter. Odd.

 

[FlybyStardancer]

Adding, my two batches haven't done any warping, and the second one was cut into large, thin sheets.

Updating on them, by the way. It's been nine weeks since I made the first of my two batches, the honey-and-milk castile. (Used 35g dry milk and 22g honey mixed into the water portion that was equal to the oil weight, heated to allow them to dissolve and then cooled.) I weighed them and they're about 62% of their original weight. I also separated out a smaller portion of the bars and weighed them, so I could keep track of how much more they lose while I try using some of the other bars.

Over time the first batch had discolored so that the areas I had added TD to were more of a golden yellow color and the areas I had added red-orange mica to were peachy orange. However, after a few tests washes they now look their original cream and pink. I can now understand why some people describe castile as slimy... The soap was very very slippery with a very thin, sparse lather that would stretch out between my hand and the bar like mucus when I pulled it away. Sometimes if I got enough on my hands and continued rubbing them together without the bar, I'd have better luck at getting a decent lather.

My hands were very soft after using them, though I'm still trying to decide if it left a slight irritation that went away or if that was just my hands and I only noticed because I was looking for something rather than something that happens normally with me.

As far as the pictures go... The first batch was actually darker in real life than in the pic. And the second batch continues to be odd colors. Now it's shifted so that there's more purple in it again, and has obvious streaks of ash, though not nearly as much as the first batch.

 

[DeeAnna]

"...Strangely, my first batch, the half that kind of separated but that I got back together, has had no warping at all...."

I'm sure you're right -- the warpage is due to the rate and amount of water evaporation.

My first homely batch with all OO separated and drained in the mold. The amount of water lost after the bars were cut is more similar to the moisture loss of "normal" soap bars. These bars have shrunk some, but not to the degree that the second batch as.

The second batch with safflower-lard didn't separate or drain in the mold. The bars were a beautiful ivory (and still are) but they have deformed and shrunk a lot. Compared to the homely batch and my normal soaps, these bars have lost a lot more weight due to water evaporation. It stands to reason the water loss = shrinkage in size.

Here's my last lab report showing the water loss: http://www.soapmakingforum.com/showpost.php?p=414548&postcount=476

I wonder how Robert B's batch is turning out?

 

[Robert B]

Hiya!

Mine are doing well. They have not twisted or cracked or anything. They are just standing around like perfect soldiers. I did not weigh them in the beginning but they look great...apart from the frosting of ash here and there.

They do look a bit more beige and not as white. I used Pomace Olive Oil (I think).

My goal ---- is to wait a year but will be happy if I wait til Christmas.

Now my first batch that was cracking/falling apart) because I waited too long to cut...well, I am thinking I may want to try my hand at rebatching them.

I will post a pic soon.

 

[newbie]

WEll, that's what I find interesting. My first half batch did not weep or have any drainage at all- zero water loss from the recipe. It has no warping. My other batches may have some very slight warping but hardly any at all and they did not separate or lose any water during the process. My psychedelic soap- same recipe, same amount of water but dried in a less humid place- has crazy warping. Makes me think the rate of water loss makes a difference.

 

[DeeAnna]

"...they're about 62% of their original weight..."

That's comparable to my second successful (no break, no weep) batch.

"...Sometimes if I got enough on my hands and continued rubbing them together without the bar, I'd have better luck at getting a decent lather....."

That's also what I'm seeing -- I can get some very nice bubbly, fluffy lather from my two batches if I use enough water. Someone (Irish Lass, I think) said she likes to use castile with a bathing pouf or puff -- the puff can develop the lather nicely whereas just skin rubbing against skin to make lather doesn't work as well. What I am seeing that's different than "normal" castile is that there is more lather from the superlye soaps.

"...Mine are doing well. They have not twisted or cracked or anything. They are just standing around like perfect soldiers...."

And I hope they stay that way for you! I don't think my second batch really showed much warping and shrinkage a lot until just the past few weeks. At first, the bars were very nicely shaped, and I was kind of kicking myself for cutting the bars larger than I usually cut my regular soaps.

"...My first half batch did not weep or have any drainage at all- zero water loss from the recipe. It has no warping. My other batches may have some very slight warping but hardly any at all and they did not separate or lose any water during the process. My psychedelic soap- same recipe, same amount of water but dried in a less humid place- has crazy warping. Makes me think the rate of water loss makes a difference. ..."

Go figure, hey? Maybe AnnaMarie can weigh in with her point of view -- she's got more batches of this soap under her belt than the rest of us do.

 

[AnnaMarie]

Hi all! My life went from crazy to crazier as I am trying to get our house ready to sell (I have never done this before and it's a TON of work). In addition, I am shepherding my two teens everywhere- whew! I have not made any soap for weeks (sniff:sad, nor have I been on the forum sad. I thought I'd check in tonight....
On the mysterious soap (maybe we should call it mystery castile), I have gotten warping only when I insulated (not always though), but I do think there might be something to Newbie's point about the rate of water loss creating warped soap. Since I started doing this soap exactly as in the recipe I haven't had that issue at all because I'm not insulating. As I write, I have beautiful, rustic bars of castile soap waiting to be used in my stock
On the lather, I really think this soap performs best with lots of water which is why I like it in the shower. I also find it very cleansing and not overly drying and best of all-no sliminess!
My bars have lost plenty of water, but I think that has leveled out now, or slowed tremendously.
I hope I responded accordingly to your query DeeAnna
Cheers!
Anna Marie

 

[newbie]

Earlier on, I had no goop when I washed with them. Now I have some bars developing slime when I start to wash with them, which I did not expect as they matured. I thought if anything they'd have it early on, not later on. I have also found that to get the best lather, I wet the soap and then put it aside for maybe 20-30 seconds, then wash with it. It doesn't take as much work then but i suppose this follows with the solubility factor. The ones that last the longest dissolve the slowest and put less soap on the skin, if I recall DeeAnna's explanation correctly, so the pre-wetting probably allows a little more soap to be available.

 

[AnnaMarie]

Earlier on, I had no goop when I washed with them. Now I have some bars developing slime when I start to wash with them, which I did not expect as they matured. I thought if anything they'd have it early on, not later on. I have also found that to get the best lather, I wet the soap and then put it aside for maybe 20-30 seconds, then wash with it. It doesn't take as much work then but i suppose this follows with the solubility factor. The ones that last the longest dissolve the slowest and put less soap on the skin, if I recall DeeAnna's explanation correctly, so the pre-wetting probably allows a little more soap to be available.

Is it the clear, thin layer of slime or is it "snot like" slime (sorry for the gross term.) I haven't like castile because it turns into a yellow, yucky mess. I do initially get the clear jelly thing going though.
Cheers!
Anna Marie

 

[DeeAnna]

Can't speak for Newbie, but I definitely get a clear gel layer (I like "gel" better than "slime") when I intentionally let the bars sit in water. I think that qualifies as a "clear, thin layer of slime". It's not ropy or snotty at all -- the best comparison I can come up with is plain Jello (gelatin) made with a little less water than usual.

The bars also get super slippery when I wash with them -- more slippery than my normal soap does. I'm guessing this slipperiness is the soap absorbing water to create a thin layer of soap gel on the surface of the bar.

I really need to do a lab report update soon -- I'll try to share some pics.

 

[newbie]

WHen I start to wash with some of the bars, I do get goopy ropey stuff that will stretch between my hands, like slime. Just letting the bar sit damp for 30 seconds doesn't produce it. It's when I'm trying to work up a lather that I will get the rope.

 

[DeeAnna]

Krunt -- thanks for sharing your reactions to the -40% soap. That was a good read! (http://www.soapmakingforum.com/showpost.php?p=416738&postcount=552).

I was away from home when you wrote your posts, and I'm just now reading what y'all posted during that time. From your and others' reports and from my experience, I think I can safely say these things --

Soap made from high-oleic oils (olive, HO safflower, avocado, etc.) is not very water soluble. The upshot of this is a high-oleic soap will be slower to lather, the lather is less abundant, and extra water is needed to develop bubbles vs. a dense ropy lather. Lather lovers will not like castile, but the advantages of a high-oleic soap is that it will clean more gently, last longer, and cause less skin irritation for sensitive people.

So, with all that in mind, what are we all seeing about the superlye soap that is any different (and hopefully better!) than "normal" castile as most would make it?

From my perspective, I'd say the superlye castile lathers more freely, allowing for the fact that it is still a high-oleic, lower solubility soap.

It does not turn into a slimy mush or fall apart when it sits in water, so it will last longer in the bath or at the sink.

I also think another tentative outcome of our experiments is that we're learning lye-heaviness is not the "kiss of death" for an otherwise well-made soap. The experiment I want to set up based on Kevin Dunn's suggestions will help confirm this idea ... I've got to get off dead center and get this going!

 

[Robert B]

I tried washing with the soap from my first batch (that cracked). The soap was full of ash. I did experience a clear slimey-ness. These are only about 5 weeks old tho. I did not experience over-drying on the hands. I am chalking it up to the newness of the soap.

* listen to me...talking like I know anything about soap making *

 

[BabyPickles106]

For those that are put off by the look and feel of slimmy feel; what about using it as felted or in a soap sock?

 

[krunt]

Hi everyone,

I have been a bit tardy in reporting my thoughts and observations with this soap -- deeanna's post prompted me to get to it.

To recap: I have made 4 batches of this soap (100% olive oil), the only difference being the lye excess. First batch was -40%, then -10%, -20% & -30%. I wondered whether so much extra lye was necessary to achieve a non-gooey soap.

As each soap batch reached 4 weeks of age, I used a bar at the bathroom sink as a frequent use hand soap. Each bar was used for 1 week.

In short, overall I was very happy with the -40% & -30% batches. The -20% & -10% were mostly fine, but I did not consider them ideal.

-10%: yellow colouring of the oil remained in the soap, soap had a slightly shrunken and warped appearance to it, soap got a bit soft during use -- not so soft that I had to stop using it, but softer than I would like.

-20%: my thoughts on this soap are the same as the previous one, except this batch did not warp or shrink.

-30%: there was perhaps a hint of colour in this batch, but not much. Soap did not appear shrunken or warped, soap stayed nice and hard during use.

-40%: off white in colour, no shrunken/warped appearance, soap stayed nice and hard.

I found all the batches slightly drying at 4 weeks. I am happy with the lather once it gets going, but I have to work for it. In the future I am going to add a little coconut to hopefully make for easier lathering.

The -40% batch is now 8 weeks old, and I am using it at the sink again. It is definitely milder now than it was at 4 weeks. I'll give it a whirl in the shower soon.

In addition to staying hard, what I like most about this soap is the fact that 100% of the oil is saponified -- there is no leftover oil to turn rancid. In the past, I found the unsaponified olive oil in soap would turn bad within a couple of months, and give the soap an unpleasant smell (same can be said about avocado oil, for example). I had actually stopped using these oils for that reason. I also like that with the higher lye amounts, the natural colour of the oil is "destroyed" and does not remain in the soap (don't really find yellow soap appealing).

 

[DeeAnna]

Thank you, Krunt! Much food for thought -- I appreciate your sharing this info.

 

[DeeAnna]

It's roughly Day 70 since I made my two batches of superlye soap. The rate of moisture loss for both soaps has tapered off quite a bit and is looks comparable to the data for my normal soaps. The 100% olive soap is still continuing to lose moisture a wee bit faster, but the trend is not greatly different than the others.

Both of my superlye soaps have deformed and shrunk somewhat (photos 1 and 2). The olive soap has very little ash. It has remained more yellow, especially where it was initially soft and goopy in the center. The safflower-lard soap has a thick coating of ash on the top a lot like thin frosting with a scattering of ash on the other surface. It has remained a pale ivory underneath the ash.

Both have similar lather when I wash my hands at the sink. With very little water added to my hands, the lather that develops on my skin is thin and ropy (photo 3). With more water added and a bit more rubbing, the lather loosens and bubbles up nicely (photo 4). I'm sure this type of lathering is due to the low solubility of oleic soap -- it just doesn't want to lather strongly without plenty of water and a bit of encouragement.

I have now been using samples in the shower with a bath puff. The lather is a fairly dense foam with a nice overlay of fluffy bubbles (photo 5). I am getting absolutely no zap and no skin irritation, even in (ahem!) tender places. I do not notice any unusual dryness after my shower either.

 

[FlybyStardancer]

Those lather pics from hand washing are quite similar to what I'm getting! Though if I use enough water it actually gets a bit fluffier than that for me.

 

[DeeAnna]

I can get better lather too, FlyBy. I was tired last night and I realize now I didn't really do my best job with the lather tests. When enough water is added and I take more care with the handwashing tests, the superlye soaps can make a much nicer lather. Not quite the same as the bath puff, but closer....