Cutting off ash.. Will it return?

[bodhi]

beautiful soaps. I like the look of the one with the ash.

 

[Robert]

I just don't like the idea of washing skin with sodium carbonate, either direct from the surface of soap or in a small volume of water. I know there are hand washes like Boraxo that deliberately add borax (slightly less alkaline than soda), and even some for mechanics that use ammonia, and for high dilution sodium carbonate has been used in bath salts, but I'd like to avoid having it in there in general skin cleaning like a bar of soap if I have a choice. We know the steam can't make it go away but only change its appearance, maybe mixing it into a deeper layer of soap--unless you're using the steam to soften it and then rub it off. I'm not saying it won't sell, only that I wouldn't want to use it.

I did try the equivalent process once, as I mentioned in another thread. It was where I tried microwaving to react wet washing soda with fatty acid, and found the reaction didn't go to completion. So even if you have an excess of fatty acid in your soap, it's not going to neutralize the soda ash at steaming temperatures.

 

[bodhi]

I just don't like the idea of washing skin with sodium carbonate ... I know there are hand washes like Boraxo that deliberately add borax

Ive never really worried about ash so this may be a stupid question. Is ash sodium carbonate?

If so, then whats the big deal? Its used in food, pools, toothpastes, etc. Borax is a sodium borate, different animal but equally as innocuous in normal use.

 

[jenneelk]

I just don't like the idea of washing skin with sodium carbonate, either direct from the surface of soap or in a small volume of water. I know there are hand washes like Boraxo that deliberately add borax (slightly less alkaline than soda), and even some for mechanics that use ammonia, and for high dilution sodium carbonate has been used in bath salts, but I'd like to avoid having it in there in general skin cleaning like a bar of soap if I have a choice. We know the steam can't make it go away but only change its appearance, maybe mixing it into a deeper layer of soap--unless you're using the steam to soften it and then rub it off. I'm not saying it won't sell, only that I wouldn't want to use it.

I did try the equivalent process once, as I mentioned in another thread. It was where I tried microwaving to react wet washing soda with fatty acid, and found the reaction didn't go to completion. So even if you have an excess of fatty acid in your soap, it's not going to neutralize the soda ash at steaming temperatures.

While I understand it's not something you want to use.. it's not as if it's throughout the bar. The ash only forms where lye has reached air and changed to SC. Once you get it under water the first time it rinses off.

Your post above makes it sounds as if there is SC floating throughout the bar.
Unless I'm misunderstanding?

 

[Bunny]

Ash is sodium carbonate.... totally harmless. If it is not thick ash, you can use a microfiber washcloth and regular isopropyl alcohol to polish it off, and no it won't come back. For really thick ash (which is caused from a combination of ingredients, PH and hot gel phase) you can cut it off and it won't come back. Actually, you make really like polishing your soap with alcohol. I prefer 90% isopropyl because it evaporates fast, doesn't make the soap soggy and leaves a great shine on the bars.

 

[Robert]

Ive never really worried about ash so this may be a stupid question. Is ash sodium carbonate?

Yes.

If so, then whats the big deal? Its used in food, pools, toothpastes, etc. Borax is a sodium borate, different animal but equally as innocuous in normal use.

Yes, at the concentrations it's used at in those applications.

But when a cake of soap has soda ash on its surface, that surface bit is what's going to dissolve the first time you use it, in whatever amount of water you're dissolving it in. Usually when we use soap we wet it and rub it onto a washcloth, or your hand, whatever. That's not a lot of water, and yet probably all the soda ash that formed is dissolving in that amount of water the first time you use it, or maybe the first couple of times. That means your first use of it is going to deliver a more alkaline solution than you'd probably like. If you could just get rid of that layer of ash in one fell swoop before the first time you used it, why wouldn't you? Sure, you sacrifice a tiny bit of soap that's mixed with that layer, but you're doing it for an increase in purity. It's a lot like zone melting metal, or trimming fat off meat, or skimming the head off a beer.

 

[bodhi]

Ok, i understand that, but im still not quite understanding what the big deal is with some on soap. I understand its a cosmetic thing, and I get the bit about it being alkaline-it is a salt after all-and i get the trimming and skimming thing, but its still just a salt. Heck i take baths in borax and think its wonderful stuff. Oral LD50 of sodium carbonate is 4090 mg/kg, table salt is 3000 mg/kg, baking soda is 4220 mg/kg...

Alkalinity may be another thing though. Google seems to think that 1gm in 1 liter of water has a ph of about 11.3 and 5 gms in a liter is about 11.6 so, how alkaline is it really in the first washing of a bar of soap?

And, really Im just curious, but now youve got the science addict in me wondering and I have one and only one ashy soap which was my first goats milk block-and i'm not cutting it. Its a sentimental thing . Anyone got a ph meter, a sink full of water, and an ashy bar of soap?

Sorry for the hijack!

 

[robtr31]

soap in hand turn water on , soap bettwen hands moving hand back and forth soda ash is gone in secounds , no waste just biulding up latter in 2 to 3 secounds done with the soda. of course i didn't bring out the micro scope to double check have better things to do.

 

[panzerakc]

Bodhi, there is some concern that the ash could be an irritant to some people. I'm not willing to take the risk of having a customer have a bad reaction to one of my soaps, so I take the ash off. (I've never been much good at preventing it.:smile: )

Anita

 

[bodhi]

Bodhi, there is some concern that the ash could be an irritant to some people. I'm not willing to take the risk of having a customer have a bad reaction to one of my soaps, so I take the ash off. (I've never been much good at preventing it.:smile: )

Anita

Yeah, i figured that is why there is so much discussion about it. Im just wondering if anyone who is concerned has actually tested it to find out why or even if they should be concerned.

 

[lsg]

Bodhi, there is some concern that the ash could be an irritant to some people. I'm not willing to take the risk of having a customer have a bad reaction to one of my soaps, so I take the ash off. (I've never been much good at preventing it.:smile: )

Anita

Then you can polish it off.

 

[jenneelk]

Yeah, i figured that is why there is so much discussion about it. Im just wondering if anyone who is concerned has actually tested it to find out why or even if they should be concerned.

From what I've been reading off an on throughout the day today from different sources from science based to soap based sites.. It's basically no.. It's fine. You don't need to be concerned they all say.
I didn't see anything that said there could be a problem with it. If its lye.. Yes of course. But didn't see anything that said the small surface bit of ash could be harmful.

I def would like to know if there is literature out there that shows the ash left can be harmful.. Please do post a link if there is one.

I only had a few with ash and they seem to be my fridge ones.
So now I have my spray bottle with alcohol ready to go!!

 

[Robert]

From what I've been reading off an on throughout the day today from different sources from science based to soap based sites.. It's a resounding no,
You don't need to be concerned.

It's not a serious danger, no, but it seems odd that so many people would make a thing of their hand crafted soap's being so fancy and gentle and carefully made compared to mass market soaps, and then accept the presence of extra alkali on the surface.

I didn't see anything that said there could be a problem with it. If its lye.. Yes of course.

If it's lye, it won't stay lye for long. That amount of lye in a thin layer will quickly convert to soda ash from air exposure.

Kevin Dunn (who writes of surface soda ash as a "defect") has a quick test to distinguish light colored stuff on the surface of a soap: dissolve in ethanol (ethyl alcohol; I'm guessing he means 95%, but this test will probably work with 70%). If it's lye it'll dissolve readily, and if it's soap that happens to be in a different crystalline form from the rest of the cake, it'll dissolve with enough encouragement, but if it's soda ash it won't.

 

[bodhi]

We are a mixed bag, ill give you that. My soaps, IMO, are special, and gentle, extremely well researched, carefully made, and in comparison to commercially made soaps, in an entirely different league, but i couldnt care a rats ass about ash on them. excuse my language, lol.

Its not a 'serious' danger? Im sorry but this made me laugh. As far as I have ever known and which seems to be repeated in this thread, there is no danger at all. Its a wash it off if you dont like it, dont bother wearing gloves when you do, or just use it as it is kinda thing, because its just ash... I may also be mis reading you, but you seem to be clinging to there being at least some sort of danger. So is there some info you are privy to showing its dangerous, or possibly dangerous, or there being even a slight possibility of a remote danger to a rare subgroup of the population that we dont know about?

 

[dagmar88]

Kevin Dunn (who writes of surface soda ash as a "defect") has a quick test to distinguish light colored stuff on the surface of a soap: dissolve in ethanol (ethyl alcohol; I'm guessing he means 95%, but this test will probably work with 70%). If it's lye it'll dissolve readily, and if it's soap that happens to be in a different crystalline form from the rest of the cake, it'll dissolve with enough encouragement, but if it's soda ash it won't.

That's quite funny considering the technique most soap makers use to identify excess lye.
If soap is made following the proper process, it's got to be ash anyway.

 

[jenneelk]

Ok so you mention Kevin Dunn and distinguishing surface stuff which doesn't help the current argument really about ash being harmful.. But you have yet to give a place where I can hear the info about it being even a little bit harmful. Is that amount better? A little?
I can give you places all over, again science and soap based that say its fine. I would think there would be plenty if your scientific theory is correct.

I'm not saying your wrong.. But you have given nothing to support yourself Robert.
You can't just lump ash on soap as being bad because its 'ash' anymore than you can lump sodium hydroxide as being bad because of what it is. In the context it's being used its apples and oranges from what I've researched.

Again.. I am ok being told I'm wrong. I want my soaps safe. Please just tell me where to go.

 

[jenneelk]

Here is Kevin Dunn's lecture summation. Nothing is pointed out as it being bad and this would have been his opportunity and he would have said so considering he did testing on it.
http://cavemanchemistry.com/HsmgJojoba2011.pdf

And those who reference him in their talk about ash never say it is said to be harmful or a bad thing... As Kevin Dunn says.. 'It washes off with water'.

 

[Obsidian]

Do you have PH strips Jennee? It would be interesting to see if there is much of a difference between the ashy surface and non ashy inside of the same bar.

 

[Robert]

Ok so you mention Kevin Dunn and distinguishing surface stuff which doesn't help the current argument really about ash being harmful.. But you have yet to give a place where I can hear the info about it being even a little bit harmful. Is that amount better? A little?

Of course we're not talking about hospital bills, etc. But none of the claims about one or another's skin care product being "milder" than another are easily proven. You might get 6 tests with 20 subjects each showing A averaging milder than B, and 4 tests showing B averages milder than A, with people disagreeing about which test is the better model, and something like that is a frequent basis for a broad conclusion that A is milder than B; it may not stand up over the long run, but such is the state of comparisons of these products, where the differences in effects are usually small. Between 2 different soaps you might be looking at a 10% difference in the chance in someone's leg's being itchy after a shower, and that's what the great majority of concerns are like with products like this. There are people who'll tell you how mild an all-coconut soap is, and others who'll complain of dryness from soaps whose chain length distribution is way over to the high end -- but does that mean we should throw up our hands and not try to make generaliz'ns about the factors involved?

I don't think it's any great secret that over the years, sodium carbonate has been generally considered to make soap a little harsher. When Duz soap powder was advertised as having "almost toilet soap mildness", the reason they said "almost" was that they added a little sodium carbonate (much less than most of the current home laundry detergent recipes going around), which toilet soaps would never have as a deliberate addition, and which the mass market toilet soaps didn't have (because they aren't made by kettle process). If there were absolutely no reason to think Na2CO3 compromised mildness, they would've had every interest in not putting that little disclaiming word in, wouldn't they? Why would they have put their marketing at a disadvantage vs., say, Lux flakes, if there were no truth to it?

 

[bodhi]

Im going to take that as a 'No'.