Curing and Drying Effect

[Dean]

Hi Soaperts,

Can it be assumed that a full 4-6 wks cure will ensure that handmade soap won’t be drying if its in the appropriate lauric/myristic of range of 10 to 14?

 

[penelopejane]

No. It still depends on the recipe and on the users skin.

I don’t take much notice of those numbers as they don’t seem to apply to OO soap which I make. If they don’t apply to OO soap I assume they don’t apply to other oils but I am not sure about that. DeeAnna has a better system Than the soap calcs but it is still just a guide.

For my soap “full cure” is not an appropriate term as they continue to get better over time.

 

[Arimara]

I like soaps to be cured for at leas 3 months. this way, I'm sure I will have a soap that can last a decent amount of time given the lack of additives I use (salt, EDTA, sugar, Polysorbate 80...)

 

[DeeAnna]

That's a hard question to answer, Dean. I'd say it's a reasonably good bet that a soap with a low % of myristic + lauric that's been cured 4-6 weeks will be about as mild as it's going to get. The perception of mildness also depends on the rest of your recipe and the person using the soap, however, so I don't think you can automatically assume the soap will be a paragon of mildness.

 

[The Efficacious Gentleman]

Agreed. The recipe as a whole will have an impact, as will things like lye discount which is not considered in the calc numbers

 

[Dean]

Thanks all for the responses.

I'm going to try a very long cure and see if that works. I've tried everything else (including changing the oils, HP, average cure, and SF up to 20%) and am out of options. I thought it was CO that was causing the drying effect but I know that's not it because I've reduced the CO (lauric+myristic) to almost nil and the soap is still drying, and now it produces little lather. CO is the number one ingredient on the commercial soap that I use and its never been drying for me which seems to point that the CO or its acids are not the culprit. I searched the forum for "drying". Tons of threads came up revealing that its a common issue with handmade soap. CO or its acids are almost always pointed as the culprits but I beginning to doubt that...

If this last batch goes south, I've got $200+ worth of soaping supplies to unload!

 

[BrewerGeorge]

Ignore me if you've gone over this elsewhere and I've missed it, but if not could you post your whole recipe and an overview of your process, please?

 

[earlene]

Dean, I think you are being a bit impatient when it comes to cure. As I recall you started testing your first batch at one week. Now you know it takes longer, but it's still only been a very short time since you started making soap, right? How many batches have you made and how young or old were they when you decided that they had 'gone south'?

For me, even my most favorite of all my recipes, when too young is drying to my skin. So I don't bother testing them when they are young. If I want to know if they will lather or bubble when young, I might wear gloves to test that, but to actually determine if my skin likes any soap, I give it at least 2 or 3 months or even longer depending on the ingredients in the formula.

Soap I made in July 2015, that I thought was not my among my favorites, became my favorite after another several months and is now my primary go-to recipe when I want to make a soap that I know my skin loves. In fact, I have added the word 'luscious' to recipe name because that's how my skin feels after I use it.

IMO, it's just too early to give up unless instant gratification is absolutely your thing. If that's the case, perhaps you might give Melt & Pour a try while you wait for the CP & HP to cure.

 

[DeeAnna]

...Tons of threads came up revealing that its a common issue with handmade soap. ...

The story of the three blind men and the elephant comes to mind here.

You are forming conclusions based on the relatively small % of soapers who are having trouble and asking for help. You are ignoring the rest of us who aren't having problems and thus don't have many complaints to make nor questions to ask. I came to make my own soap because commercial soap was so unsatisfactory and I'm still happy with my decision to make my own.

 

[Dean]

Ignore me if you've gone over this elsewhere and I've missed it, but if not could you post your whole recipe and an overview of your process, please?

Hi George,

I change the recipe and process every time to address issues (such as drying effect or overheating) with the previous batch. Since I never get a good batch, I never have the same recipe. Its recipe roulette! I do put everything in the calc to make sure its in normal ranges and then cross reference with advice from articles and the soaperts on forum.

 

[dixiedragon]

Then maybe try your most recent one?

What is the commercial soap that you use that you like? Can you try a recipe that only uses those oils?

I suggest this:
60% lard
5% castor
35% sunflower
10% superfat

Add some sugar to boost bubbles

 

[Dean]

Dean, I think you are being a bit impatient when it comes to cure. As I recall you started testing your first batch at one week. Now you know it takes longer, but it's still only been a very short time since you started making soap, right? How many batches have you made and how young or old were they when you decided that they had 'gone south'?

For me, even my most favorite of all my recipes, when too young is drying to my skin. So I don't bother testing them when they are young. If I want to know if they will lather or bubble when young, I might wear gloves to test that, but to actually determine if my skin likes any soap, I give it at least 2 or 3 months or even longer depending on the ingredients in the formula.

Soap I made in July 2015, that I thought was not my among my favorites, became my favorite after another several months and is now my primary go-to recipe when I want to make a soap that I know my skin loves. In fact, I have added the word 'luscious' to recipe name because that's how my skin feels after I use it.

IMO, it's just too early to give up unless instant gratification is absolutely your thing. If that's the case, perhaps you might give Melt & Pour a try while you wait for the CP & HP to cure.

Hi Earlene,

You are correct, I have tested after a week but also after a month cure. The one thing I haven't tried is long cure. I re-read DeeAnna's article last night on curing. I'm a hoping a longer cure of 6-8 weeks is the magic solution.

 

[BrewerGeorge]

You've probably heard this before, but I consider 4 week the absolute minimum before it even starts to function correctly, much less feel the way it should. I don't even give stuff to my kids (adults) before its 8 weeks old, and usually wait 12 weks before giving to friends. What I personally use probably averages 6 months or older. I have two bars in the shower now: a Castille that's 12 months and a balanced bar that was cut on 7/1/17. I've got bars still on the curing shelf to use that are at least 18 months.

If that lag time seems daunting, the thing to realize is that it's basically imaginary once you get going. As long as you keep making soap steadily - even once a month - you won't be chomping to try the one you just made last week because your soap dishes are full of ones you made six or eight months ago. And if you're like most of us you'll end up making more than you can reasonably use and start gifting it.


Also, have you considered an actual sensitivity to one of the ingredients? Do your various recipes have anything in common? Olive and coconut oils, probably right? Castor oil might be a likely culprit since you're probably using it if you've been listening to us, but commercial soap probably is NOT.

 

[Dean]

I'm fairly certain it is not any ingredient. I don't typically have dry skin or sensitivities. The constant ingredients have been the notorious CO (from 100% CO/2o SF, down to 15% CO), water and sodium hydroxide. It's got to be the cure since CO based commercial soap isn't' drying for me. To find the optimal cure time, someone on here suggested to test every week after a month until its no longer drying. Not sure if it was a blind man or soapert who gave the advice. Hopefully, the latter. Anyways, might give that a try...

 

[dixiedragon]

I get that you are impatient, but you really need to give the soap a chance! We generally consider 6 weeks a MINIMUM cure. I suggest you keep experimenting (small batches!) and try your soaps a 4, 8 and 12 weeks. Your skin may be very sensitive and just need that longer cure.

Something else I would suggest - make bars that are 100% lard, 100% tallow and 100% palm and test them. In most recipes (not all, obviously), one of these will be a large percentage of your oils - 40% or more. If you can find out which of those three is the best for your skin, then you can build your recipe from there. But if all three of them (well aged) leave you feeling dry and irritated, you may need to build your recipe in a different way.

 

[Dean]

We generally consider 6 weeks a MINIMUM cure.

Good to know!

Thanks for the suggestions Dixie.

 

[penelopejane]

Why not try a soap with no CO?

 

[Dean]

Why not try a soap with no CO?

I've considered doing a soy wax, almond, and castor soap. I don't like OO slime and am palm and animal free if you don't count the rabbit in my living room. I bathed him yesterday. He was pretty scrawny when wet so I don't think I could get much fat out of him. Anyways, I don't have a bunny press.

Does the cure time have anything to do with the fatty acid profile? I know 100% OO takes a year.

 

[BattleGnome]

I think you’re looking at this as if you were looking at a cookbook. There are a few more variables at play with soaping than with baking.

With baking you read a recipe and adapt for high elevation or not. Most of us grow up with some sense of how Mom cooks and internalize adaptations based on personal taste. Very few people grow up soap making and the common trend for those that were exposed to it as a child can be summed up with “Grandma did it but no one remembers her recipe, I think she used (whatever oil).”

Coming into soaping as an adult leaves us with preconceived notions and memories of cooking in the family kitchen or science class where experiments were designed to succeed. It’s not always that simple. Like with baking, everyone has minor adjustments to make but there is little reference to what adjustments to start with.

Your personal microclimate effects cure. Is it humid by you? Arid? Hot? Cold? All that can effect it. Your ingredients can effect cure (which I know is what your asking). What I’m mentioning here is quality or brand availability. You’ll get better olive oil if you grow olives in your backyard instead of buying the oil. What kind of airflow does your curing space have? Some of us have to cure in spare bedrooms or closets that don’t get circulation.

Fatty acid profile can tell you how a soap will end up feeling but only if you know what you’re looking for. Then when you know what your looking for, throw those numbers out the window because you’ll join a swap and someone else’s odd recipe will blow you away. I max out at 20% coconut (unless salt bars) and average a 5% SF. I think it’s IrishLass who uses 30% coconut and a 2% SF. Neither of us have complaints about our final bars but I would never dream of being able to balance 30% coconut oil.

Ambling aside: fatty acid profiles sometimes can effect cure. In my opinion it’s more personal spaces and climate. Listen to the advice everyone has already given you. Some forum accepted rules: salt bars - 6mo+, castille 12mo+, generic bar - start at 4weeks but test every month until you know for sure. No hard and fast rule about high olive but consider 3mo+ to be safe.

My advice: make a ton of small batches and ignore the numbers for a while. Get your process down and know what you want to feel like after a shower. I’ve been soaping for almost 3 years and it’s only been in the past year that I’ve begun finding my magic formula. I’m still not there. I just have Bastille bars that I’ve tested for over a year now that are becoming spectacular even though “cure” ended 8 months ago.

 

[earlene]

One other question: Are all the soaps you are testing zap-free?

Regarding your recipes: Regardless of all the different ones you have used, posting a complete recipe along with the issue you are having with the soap, is the best way for the soaperts to give you the most help identifying the causal factors. If you are keeping track of them, it shouldn't be too hard to pull up that information and enter into the thread when asked.